LCD Buyer's Guide

[xtknight]

speedlever: The colors on this my current VP930b (8-bit) are worlds better than my old 710T (6-bit), but I couldn't tell you if it's because of 8-bit vs 6-bit, better contrast, or just a plain old newer panel. The colors seem more what they were intended to be. And maybe 6-bit dithering is much better now. I wish I could tell you why for sure. My hunch is: the colors feel more alive because of the high contrast. The colors look more what they were intended to with the 8-bit. So with the TN you'd get less contrast plus 6-bit, and with the VA you'd get the highest contrast and 8-bit.

I did my best to make some comparison photos, but this is only as I remember it. (Samsung 710T vs. ViewSonic VP930b) B-TN II is 6-bit, P-MVA is 8-bit. The second picture actually shows the TN displaying a more saturated picture, but as you can see the colors are off from what they are supposed to be.

http://xtknight.atothosting.com/samsung-vs-auo-1.png
http://xtknight.atothosting.com/samsung-vs-auo-2.png

The TN had a bad problem displaying subtle transitions in the sky, which is hard to simulate using Photoshop. However, the VX922 TN LCD had just as accurate colors as the VP930b as measured by a calibrator, according to flatpanels.dk and BeHardware, so who knows. I'm sure the dithering gets better with each new panel.

 

[speedlever]

Hmmmm. Thanks for the links. Arghhh. What to do.

One comforting thing, the 940b has 170+ reviews at newegg... and pretty much all positive.

I looked in my area for either the 940b or the 970p hoping to get an idea of how they looked... but I couldn't find either one.

Time to hold my nose and jump in. I hope to get this in by the end of the week.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: speedlever
Hmmmm. Thanks for the links. Arghhh. What to do.

One comforting thing, the 940b has 170+ reviews at newegg... and pretty much all positive.

I looked in my area for either the 940b or the 970p hoping to get an idea of how they looked... but I couldn't find either one.

Time to hold my nose and jump in. I hope to get this in by the end of the week.

Look at the good side of it...the TN will be a lot easier on your eyes for general usage. That's what you said your intent was, right? The VA is a tad bright for me at calibrated settings.

 

[ricster2000]

Well, i ordered the 970P today which i mentioned in my other thread, and should receive it within the next couple of days. I'll try and post a review up as soon as possible to help you decide, as i had the same dilemma as you

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: ricster2000
Well, i ordered the 970P today which i mentioned in my other thread, and should receive it within the next couple of days. I'll try and post a review up as soon as possible to help you decide, as i had the same dilemma as you

Thanks. I'm really looking forward to your review of it. I'm very interested to see how it compares to the VP930b which I got because it was cheaper and had OSD controls. But it also has the horrific X backlight problem.

 

[Navid]

Is Sceptre a known LCD manufacturer?
How is this wide-screen monitor from Sceptre?
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.as...rodid=11097928&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=

Is it an 8-bit panel? Does anyone have any experience with it?

Does this also have Faroudja deinterlacer?

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

I honestly think the 2405FPW and Samsung 930B are horrible monitors too. I dont think many monitors compare to the VP930b (I have a Viewsonic VP191b, so I'm sure the refresh should be slightly better) in display quality.

 

[Compellor]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: ricster2000
Well, i ordered the 970P today which i mentioned in my other thread, and should receive it within the next couple of days. I'll try and post a review up as soon as possible to help you decide, as i had the same dilemma as you

Thanks. I'm really looking forward to your review of it. I'm very interested to see how it compares to the VP930b which I got because it was cheaper and had OSD controls. But it also has the horrific X backlight problem.

The backlight problem on the VP930b shouldn't be an issue if you lower the contrast and brightness to realistic levels. I run the contrast at 60 and the brightness at 40 and I can just barely see any bleeding. It doesn't look like an X on mine since the bleeding is coming mostly from the top corners.

 

[speedlever]

Heheheh.

Well, I'm giving thought to cancelling my 940b and re-ordering the 970p from J&R ($500 shipped). The price diff is only about $160...

I'll let you know what I decide.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Compellor
The backlight problem on the VP930b shouldn't be an issue if you lower the contrast and brightness to realistic levels. I run the contrast at 60 and the brightness at 40 and I can just barely see any bleeding. It doesn't look like an X on mine since the bleeding is coming mostly from the top corners.

Mine may be worse than yours. It's quite distracting to me on anything solid, no matter the color. I can notice it on any solid color screen fairly easily: black the most, red somewhat, green a lot, blue somewhat.

It's not too bad at contrast 100/brightness 0, but I can still notice it.

 

[speedlever]

Alrighty now. I tried to catch the newegg order to cancel the 940b monitor.. but couldn't. Newegg says I can refuse the shipment and will not suffer a restocking charge.

I ordered the 970P from J&R.

sigh... just had to go for the 970p.

Does the 970P come with a DVI cable?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Navid
Is Sceptre a known LCD manufacturer?
How is this wide-screen monitor from Sceptre?
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.as...rodid=11097928&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=

Is it an 8-bit panel? Does anyone have any experience with it?

Does this also have Faroudja deinterlacer?

Sceptre's OK. Looks like an 8-bit S-IPS panel from the specs. Don't think it has a Faroudja deinterlacer. That only applied to the S-Video/CVBS/YPbPr in on the Gateway, as far as I know. Edit: flatpanels.dk says a similar 20" Sceptre is an 8-bit P-MVA.

Originally posted by: speedlever
Does the 970P come with a DVI cable?

Don't know. My Samsung 710T did. Being at a price premium it probably will.

 

[ricster2000]

I posted a review in a new thread, but since no-one replied to it, its slowly dropping down the board, so i might as well post it here as well for people who miss it. Its a direct copy and paste job.

I got my Samsung 970P in today!

First of all, just want to say that this is my first LCD, so i can't really compare it with any other ones to give a reflection of what this is capable of.

Ok, first impressions.....VERY GOOD! No backlight bleeding whatsoever, blacks appear very black. Videos looked fine, i didn't notice any "twinkling" or anything, but i only watched a short 2 minute clip to see what video was like. General internet browsing was sharp and bright. Games appeared a LOT more detailed, however, theres something strange that i cant put my finger on it. Its not Ghosting, which there was none (or VERY minimal since i didnt notice any), but something about it was weird compared to my CRT, but it wasn't something major which would put me off gameplaying or anything. Could it be something to do with the refresh rate? Since on my CRT i used to use 85Hz whereas the recommened LCD setting is 60Hz. Any ideas what i'm talking about? I'll give it another whirl later. Note it was CS1.6 i was testing out.

About the software. I found it complicated to use. The Natural Colour software was easy to use, but i didnt quite understand MagicTune when using the colour calibrator (moving squares around etc.). However, after trying to calibrate it for a while, when comparing the calibrated and uncalibrated pictures, there was only a slight difference (one was slightly brighter than the other one). Does this mean that the monitor was calibrated well at the factory? Of course, I'm only use my eyes to do this, and they may be deceiving me. Any help on this software would be greatly appreciated.

Onto the ergonomics. It looks amazing on my desk, uses up far less room than my CRT. The triple hinge height adjusting thing was easy to use, but i somehow get the feeling that if i keep adjusting it, it would eventually "slacken" and wouldnt be able to hold the screen up. Rotating the screen was easily done, and the MagicRotation software rotates the screen automatically for you.

Overall, I have to give it a 9/10. Loses one mark due to the game issue, but maybe i just havent adjusted my games, graphics cards etc. properly yet. (coupled with the fact that i am used to playing on 1024 resolution CRT but need to adjust to 1280 resolution). So i HIGHLY recommend this monitor despite the high price, its definitely worth it. I'll be happy to answer any questions.

edit: I just checked over my graphics card settings, and turns out i had refresh rate override on for 3d games, which meant that games were on 75Hz instead of 60hz. I just knocked it back down to 60Hz, and the effect i mentioned has lessened somewhat. However, its still there, and may just be a problem inherent in all LCDs. But again, its not really a major issue.

 

[Carazariah]

Wow,
I just learned more about LCD panels in 5 minute read of this overview article then I have in 3 years of surfing the net, of course I wasn't looking for such information directly before, but anyway . . .Well done. . . A well deserverd and helpful sticky!

whew hoo. . .

Thank you very much!

C

 

[speedlever]

ricster,

Just curious where you ordered your 970p from. Any bad pixels? Was a DVI cable included?

Thanks.

 

[ricster2000]

Well, I'm from the UK, so it might not help much, but i ordered from komplett.co.uk. My monitor was shipped with 2 cables, a DVI-A to D-Sub cable, and a DVI cable. However, the DVI cable is listed as "Sold Separately" in the user manual, so i don't know whether it was meant to be packed in there together or not, maybe i just got lucky. And unfortunately, i found one bad pixel near the bottom left corner, but its very difficult to spot unless you put your face right up to the monitor.

 

[imported_ST]

Originally posted by: Navid
Is Sceptre a known LCD manufacturer?
How is this wide-screen monitor from Sceptre?
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.as...rodid=11097928&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=

Is it an 8-bit panel? Does anyone have any experience with it?

Does this also have Faroudja deinterlacer?

I believe it uses a Genesis deinterlacer chip....forgot offhand. Check this thread :
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=573173&page=55&pp=30 for info.

As far as quality, the Sceptre works great as an HTPC / gaming rig! If you have specific questions on this or the Westy 37", I have owned (own) both.

 

[Pounce]

Hey all,

Any one have experiance with refurbished LCDs? Newegg has a ViewSonic VX924 refurb for 279.99. Would that be worth it? Otherwise I need a 19 inch LCD for 300 or under. I might have sprung for the ViewSonic VA1912wb for 325 if it wasn't out of stock. Its mostly a gaming pc with some photoshop graphic work. Anyone have any experiance with the Rosewill displays?

Thanks,

Pounce

 

[speedlever]

I wonder if these are all 6 bit panels and if they are worthy of consideration? I would like to replace an old 17" CRT the kids use.

http://tinyurl.com/8gghq

http://tinyurl.com/7rkch

http://tinyurl.com/dyy9r

 

[speedlever]

Thanks, ricster.

My 970p should be in by Monday, 1/16. The bad pixel part is of most concern to me when ordering online. I think in the US they typically won't replace unless the monitor has more than 8 bad pixels.

Hoping for the best...

 

[speedlever]

xtknight,

I stumbled across some info on the J&R website that appears to contradict some of your excellent info. I'll include a quote from the source. Perhaps you can help me understand why I find it confusing! I was trying to understand what nits have to do with, and from your explanation, it has to do with black levels... and the lower the nit count the better, if I understand correctly. However, from the J&R reference, it seems they define nits as something else. Can you help?

http://tinyurl.com/7ah6b

There are two specifications that are important in defining overall picture quality - brightness and contrast.

Brightness deals with the intensity of the light that one can see and is measured by candelas, as in candelas per meter squared or cd/m2, also referred as nits. It can make a significant difference in a user's visual experience depending upon the environment and the content being viewed. If you watch TV in a sunlit room, you want a brighter screen than when you watch TV in a dark room. A typical CRT picture tube has an average rating of 350 cd/m2. A key issue about screen brightness is uniformity or is the screen's brightness the same throughout all the areas of the screen? When a CRT was curved, there were differences. Flat screen CRT's display more uniform brightness levels so, overall, the image appears brighter to your eye. Flat panel screens, LCD and Plasma, generally have uniform brightness levels and, for now, that is one of the variables that limits screen sizes. That's why LCD screens are typically up to 36 inches (diagonal) and Plasma screens run to about 60 inches.

An older LCD screen might have had 250 cd/m2, when used as a computer monitor, but can now achieve well over 400 cd/m2 but there is a cofactor that needs to be considered. LCD panel screens are lit with built-in fluorescent tubes above, beside and sometimes behind the LCD. This lamp, usually a Cold Cathode Fluorescent Lamp (CCFL), produces little heat, is highly efficient, and has a long life span. A white diffusion panel behind the LCD redirects and scatters the light evenly to ensure a uniform display. This is known as a backlight. When that light goes out, you can barely see the image on the screen. This principle also applies to LCD and DLP projector and rear projector TV models.

Plasma flat-panel screens can achieve the highest luminance, typically above 500 cd/m2, because it uses electro-illuminated gases that achieve brightness at the pixel level. It offers the most direct, effective panel brightness.

********************

Edit: so you won't have to page back, here's the nit definition from page 1 of this thread:

Black level (darkness of the color black)

LCDs require a source of light to display an image. Most today use cold cathode fluorescent lights (CCFLs), while more expensive ones use LED. With either technology, the crystals have a hard time blocking the light. How well they can do this is quantized by the black level. This measures how many nits (candelas per square meter) are emitted when black is displayed. Lower the better.

 

[wiltafur]

Hi, i am looking for my first LCD, i found some know options from viewsonic, but i need help about opinion and Panel type for this LCD´s:

LG L1930B http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824005037
HP L1755 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824176044
HP L1955 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824176047

I read specifications.. i think that the HP´s 1755 and 1955 have similar technologie that the VP930b... but i do not know if the panel are MVA, PVA or S-IPS ... what about the LG L1930B ? is a good LCD? what of the three is the best option?

thanks for your answers...

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: speedlever
xtknight,

I stumbled across some info on the J&R website that appears to contradict some of your excellent info. I'll include a quote from the source. Perhaps you can help me understand why I find it confusing! I was trying to understand what nits have to do with, and from your explanation, it has to do with black levels... and the lower the nit count the better, if I understand correctly. However, from the J&R reference, it seems they define nits as something else. Can you help?

http://tinyurl.com/7ah6b

There are two specifications that are important in defining overall picture quality - brightness and contrast.

Brightness deals with the intensity of the light that one can see and is measured by candelas, as in candelas per meter squared or cd/m2, also referred as nits. It can make a significant difference in a user's visual experience depending upon the environment and the content being viewed. If you watch TV in a sunlit room, you want a brighter screen than when you watch TV in a dark room. A typical CRT picture tube has an average rating of 350 cd/m2. A key issue about screen brightness is uniformity or is the screen's brightness the same throughout all the areas of the screen? When a CRT was curved, there were differences. Flat screen CRT's display more uniform brightness levels so, overall, the image appears brighter to your eye. Flat panel screens, LCD and Plasma, generally have uniform brightness levels and, for now, that is one of the variables that limits screen sizes. That's why LCD screens are typically up to 36 inches (diagonal) and Plasma screens run to about 60 inches.

An older LCD screen might have had 250 cd/m2, when used as a computer monitor, but can now achieve well over 400 cd/m2 but there is a cofactor that needs to be considered. LCD panel screens are lit with built-in fluorescent tubes above, beside and sometimes behind the LCD. This lamp, usually a Cold Cathode Fluorescent Lamp (CCFL), produces little heat, is highly efficient, and has a long life span. A white diffusion panel behind the LCD redirects and scatters the light evenly to ensure a uniform display. This is known as a backlight. When that light goes out, you can barely see the image on the screen. This principle also applies to LCD and DLP projector and rear projector TV models.

Plasma flat-panel screens can achieve the highest luminance, typically above 500 cd/m2, because it uses electro-illuminated gases that achieve brightness at the pixel level. It offers the most direct, effective panel brightness.

********************

Edit: so you won't have to page back, here's the nit definition from page 1 of this thread:

Black level (darkness of the color black)

LCDs require a source of light to display an image. Most today use cold cathode fluorescent lights (CCFLs), while more expensive ones use LED. With either technology, the crystals have a hard time blocking the light. How well they can do this is quantized by the black level. This measures how many nits (candelas per square meter) are emitted when black is displayed. Lower the better.

Their definition agrees with mine. I think what's confusing is the "lower the better"? Well, yeah, for black levels, if the measured 'nits' value is low it's good. That might come across as I'm implying get an LCD with the lowest candelas you can, and that's not a good thing, so I'll clarify that.

Nits means candelas per square meter and it measures the amount of light in that area. For black, zero is ideal. White is red, green, and blue combined while black is the absence of light. So for white, you'd want it as high as possible. If the black is low and the white is high, that's the best combo, and that's a high-contrast monitor.

For LCDs, since the light passes through a color filter, all the primaries (R, G, B) will be the same brightness on a perfectly uniform screen (and if you have R/G/B set at the same values in the controls). With CRTs I think they're generally equal as well but they have the potential to vary in brightness (each of the electron guns).

 

[speedlever]

Yeah, that was confusing to me. The article seems to imply that a higher number is better and your definition says that lower is better. They talk about brightness (not about black level). Is this two different subjects?

So I'm still confused!

I see the 970P is 250 nits. Is that brightness or black level? Do I care?

;-)

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: speedlever
Yeah, that was confusing to me. The article seems to imply that a higher number is better and your definition says that lower is better. They talk about brightness (not about black level). Is this two different subjects?

So I'm still confused!

I see the 970P is 250 nits. Is that brightness or black level? Do I care?

;-)

250 nits on the black level would be REALLY bad. (It's white level.)

Also that number is just marketing a lot of the time. So if you want another marketing white level number, just divide 250 by whatever the contrast is. I think the contrast ratio for the 970P is 1000:1. So 250/1000 = 0.25 nits black level. But you should not trust the value. The contrast is probably only 600:1 to 700:1, raising the black level.

I edited the last post and added some more explanation. Also re-read that part in the OP I just edited. I did a better job clarifying it there.

Brightness/luminance/white point = white level.
Black level/black point = well, black level.