LCD Buyer's Guide

[spectra9]

Originally posted by: Compellor
I think you just got a bad one. I looked at various color gradients in Photoshop and see no weird flickering on my VP930b. Is the flickering real noticeable or is it very subtle? It's possible mine may exibit this problem but I just can't see it.

Oh yes it's very noticeable, you can't even pretend it's not there if you wanted to. In MS Paint's color gradient it's like a series of flickering vertical black lines in place of certain colors, mostly in the red region. It's as if the LCD can not display those particular colors properly.

I think yours doesn't have this problem, which gives me a little hope, but seeing 3 LCDs in a row exhibiting the same problem is somewhat discouraging. It's still possible that all 3 belong to the same bad batch, who knows.

How long have you own it btw? Mine is working beautifully for around 4 months until one day, I turn it on and was greeted by horrible flickering colors

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: spectra9
Oh yes it's very noticeable, you can't even pretend it's not there if you wanted to.

Well, only in a couple theoretical tests (you can really see it). It's not noticeable elsewhere to me except one time that I saw it on the top of my desktop's wallpaper that had a weirdish transition in it, and that prompted me to investigate further. But other than that I have not seen it hardly at all. Do you notice it a lot more everywhere?

How long have you own it btw? Mine is working beautifully for around 4 months until one day, I turn it on and was greeted by horrible flickering colors

How do you know you just didn't notice it for 4 months? It took me 2 weeks to notice mine, but I was thoroughly calibrating it and inspecting it. But flickery stuff aside, every other color on this monitor is beautiful (try Call of Duty 2?)

If I remember correctly, 3 people total including me have noticed this pattern on the VP930b, and also one Polish review or something.

 

[spectra9]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Well, only in a couple theoretical tests (you can really see it). It's not noticeable elsewhere to me except one time that I saw it on the top of my desktop's wallpaper that had a weirdish transition in it, and that prompted me to investigate further. But other than that I have not seen it hardly at all.

I don't need to do any test to see it, all i need to do is look at my wallpaper, especially if it consists of many redish colors, they all flicker badly

How do you know you just didn't notice it for 4 months? It took me 2 weeks to notice mine, but I was thoroughly calibrating it and inspecting it. But flickery stuff aside, every other color on this monitor is beautiful (try Call of Duty 2?)

Because I was using the same wallpaper for the last 2 months and it looks perfect. One day I turned it on and saw a little flickering on the Windows XP boot logo. I thought it was nothing, but when windows finally load, it just flicker galore all over the place

 

[xtknight]

I just find it really hard to believe. ViewSonic must use total crap components for them to go out spontaneously like that, but I can't say I'd be surprised. And I also don't know what kind of a "defect" would cause this dithering. It seems like a very deliberate thing, not something that would be caused by component failure unless there's impromperly shielded (EMF) things in there.

 

[darXoul]

Originally posted by: roisin
darXoul: but do you need all that NEC pro software/features?

No, not really... but IPS with 8 ms g2g time surely looks good. Some of these pro features are nice to have but I'm not a CAD or DTP pro so they are not really crucial for me. The LG L2000C is quite a bit cheaper and I'd pull the trigger on this one but the problem is, LG Poland folks don't even know IF this monitor will be sold in Poland, and when.

Originally posted by: xtknight

Hmm...well I'd be dying to get that thing, except: holy crap, it's almost twice as expensive as that 20WMGX2, and when they say a 'little' blurring you can probably assume there's more than the 20WMGX2 also (coupled with the higher rating).

Well, the 20WGX2 (the Euro version w/o some inputs, HDCP, TV tuner, remote and speaker bar) goes for around PLN 2,300 - 2,500 here. The 2090UXi should cost PLN 3,500 - 4,000. This is a lot but I was even prepared to spend PLN 5,200 - 5,900 on the Samsung 244t.

As for the ghosting, the same reviewers also said they noticed some on the ViewSonic VX924, which, piece of crap or not (hi, Zebo ), is considered one of the fastest monitors around. I guess the folks are picky in terms of ghosting / blurring...

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: darXoul
As for the ghosting, the same reviewers also said they noticed some on the ViewSonic VX924, which, piece of crap or not (hi, Zebo ), is considered one of the fastest monitors around. I guess the folks are picky in terms of ghosting / blurring...

Oh, I see...I would have thought the opposite. I routinely read in my PC World that there is 'no ghosting' on monitors that are clearly slow. I trust them for testing if the monitor turns on properly and it shows colors, but beyond that I don't put too much faith in 'em.

 

[Compellor]

Originally posted by: spectra9

Originally posted by: Compellor
I think you just got a bad one. I looked at various color gradients in Photoshop and see no weird flickering on my VP930b. Is the flickering real noticeable or is it very subtle? It's possible mine may exibit this problem but I just can't see it.

Oh yes it's very noticeable, you can't even pretend it's not there if you wanted to. In MS Paint's color gradient it's like a series of flickering vertical black lines in place of certain colors, mostly in the red region. It's as if the LCD can not display those particular colors properly.

I think yours doesn't have this problem, which gives me a little hope, but seeing 3 LCDs in a row exhibiting the same problem is somewhat discouraging. It's still possible that all 3 belong to the same bad batch, who knows.

How long have you own it btw? Mine is working beautifully for around 4 months until one day, I turn it on and was greeted by horrible flickering colors

I've had mine for about 5 months.

I'd exchange it a few more times before giving up. At that point tell ViewSonic you want a full refund.

 

[junkyardDawg]

I was just looking at the color gradient in MS paint, I've got no flickering but it's definitely banding between red-yellow and light blue-blue. Is this indicative of a 6-bit lcd? I haven't noticed banding anywhere else but I haven't looked very hard.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: junkyardDawg
I was just looking at the color gradient in MS paint, I've got no flickering but it's definitely banding between red-yellow and light blue-blue. Is this indicative of a 6-bit lcd? I haven't noticed banding anywhere else but I haven't looked very hard.

It depends. Most 8-bit LCDs still have color banding in gradients. When you look at your monitor from an extreme bottom angle, do the colors completely invert or do they just get a little darker/washed-out? If they invert, it's a 6-bit. If not, it's USUALLY an 8-bit (except the 970P). What is the model of the LCD?

 

[junkyardDawg]

It's an Acer AL1923r. Bottom viewing angle looks great. I've got to tilt the monitor all the way back and get really low before it even starts darkening, no inverted colors here. I'm pretty sure it's an 8-bit, colors are miles better than my wifes TN.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: junkyardDawg
It's an Acer AL1923r. Bottom viewing angle looks great. I've got to tilt the monitor all the way back and get really low before it even starts darkening, no inverted colors here. I'm pretty sure it's an 8-bit, colors are miles better than my wifes TN.

Specs definitely look like an 8-bit AUO P-MVA to me. High contrast, low response, wide viewing angles. Wow, such panels must be getting cheaper. $319.99! Do you see any ghosting? I'm going to have to put this in my recommendations.

Edit: ahh, you addressed that earlier. Sounds good (the dark blurring is normal but despite it, VP930b/970P are good gaming monitors).

 

[junkyardDawg]

When I first got it I tried to play as if I had never heard of ghosting and I honestly didn't see anything. When I looked closer I could see something but it's not an issue with me. I'm pretty happy with it. Colors are a step below a good crt, a little washed out, but as good as any lcd Iv'e seen.

 

[xtknight]

darXoul: Take a look at this: CeBIT : Samsung LCD, MPA technology

I wonder if that would fix the S-PVA lag issue. Some other really neat things on there too (BFI technology). New CCFL phosphor and LED backlights! Reducing LCD response times by CRT principles. 'End of response time' :Q :Q :Q Looks like it's time to wait before getting that new S-IPS again.

More: http://www.hardware.fr/news/lire/11-03-2006/#8049

 

[roisin]

so basically the current 204t/214t/244t samsungs have this level of afterglow? http://www.behardware.com/medias/photos_news/00/15/IMG0015982.jpg

i wish i could see the new s-ips panel next to it, displaying the same moving motorcycle in a clone mode

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: roisin
so basically the current 204t/214t/244t samsungs have this level of afterglow? http://www.behardware.com/medias/photos_news/00/15/IMG0015982.jpg

i wish i could see the new s-ips panel next to it, displaying the same moving motorcycle in a clone mode

I think they mentioned the first slower one was already slower than today's. Anyhow here are some more pictures of this technology: http://translate.google.com/translate?u...=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

 

[darXoul]

Yes, xtknight, I've been regularly checking hardware.fr and I read all the reports on new tech in the LCD area. VAextreme, BFI, MPA and LED all look impressive. However, in most cases there is no indication when such monitors will be available for reasonable prices.

BFI - probably June.
MPA - 2006? Not even that much is known.
affordable LED (PVA 4 ms) - ???
VAextreme (6.5 ms, 1200:1) - ???

 

[Michael]

I'm having zero issues with my 930b. I picked up a gretagmacbeth display calibrator at the IT show this weekend (about $120 US, but I have 4 lcd sceens in the house, plus a laptop so it seemed worth it). It looks even nicer with the calibration done via a sensor instead of me trying to guess by sight.

The display calibrator stays plugged in after you've set the monitor to adjust to the ambiant light.

I've tried a few of the patterns that have been provided for this monitor and have not noticed the dithering or other issues. It may be that my eyes are not sensitive or trained enough to spot it (which is one of the reasons why I bought the hardware solution to calibration).

Michael

 

[xtknight]

Updated main post with Index of Reviews. I'll be going through this list of sites adding some more. So far I've only gone through PC World (for the most part).

flatpanels.dk
hardware.fr / behardware.com
lesnumeriques.com
dinside.no
tftcentral.co.uk
widescreengamingforum.com
maximumpc.com
tomshardware.com
xbitlabs.com
www.mva.pl
www.pcworld.com
prad.de

If anyone has more review sites please let me know.

 

[xtknight]

The ViewSonic VP930 is in fact NOT 8-bit. (as I had suspected for months now!)

http://www.viewsoniceurope.com/DE/Products/LCDProf/VP930.htm

19"-MVA-Farb-TFT-Aktiv-Matrix-LCD-Display, SXGA
16,7 Mio. Farben
(6-Bit + 2-Bit FRC)

Fast 8-bit PVA/MVA panels are a fantasy, but you do get the higher contrast and wide viewing angles. We do still think the S-IPS are true 8-bit displays.

On a good note here's another CeBIT FPD report: http://www.flatpanels.dk/nyhed.php?suba...1142200800&archive=&start_from=&ucat=&

 

[mauri]

Originally posted by: xtknight
The ViewSonic VP930 is in fact NOT 8-bit. (as I had suspected for months now!)

http://www.viewsoniceurope.com/DE/Products/LCDProf/VP930.htm

19"-MVA-Farb-TFT-Aktiv-Matrix-LCD-Display, SXGA
16,7 Mio. Farben
(6-Bit + 2-Bit FRC)

Fast 8-bit PVA/MVA panels are a fantasy, but you do get the higher contrast and wide viewing angles. We do still think the S-IPS are true 8-bit displays.

On a good note here's another CeBIT FPD report: http://www.flatpanels.dk/nyhed.php?suba...1142200800&archive=&start_from=&ucat=&

This is just bad news. I've been waiting for ViewSonic VP930 for 12 days now, but I'm so dissapointed now to find out that the VP 930 isn't a 8-bit. Is there any true 19" 8-bit monitors? Is the Acer AL1923 8-bit, or just another 6-Bit + 2-Bit FRC in the end? does anyone have any data on that? I could have the Acer AL1923 for 130? cheaper than VP930 (which I was getting because I thought that it was a true 8-bit monitor). I need recommendations, please.

I had this thread, because I was conserned about VP930 Image quality. It explains what I use my computer at the moment and what I need from it. Oh man, I just don't know what to buy at the moment, any suggestions will be highly appreciated!

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: mauri
This is just bad news. I've been waiting for ViewSonic VP930 for 12 days now, but I'm so dissapointed now to find out that the VP 930 isn't a 8-bit. Is there any true 19" 8-bit monitors? Is the Acer AL1923 8-bit, or just another 6-Bit + 2-Bit FRC in the end? does anyone have any data on that? I could have the Acer AL1923 for 130? cheaper than VP930 (which I was getting because I thought that it was a true 8-bit monitor). I need recommendations, please.

I had this thread, because I was conserned about VP930 Image quality. It explains what I use my computer at the moment and what I need from it. Oh man, I just don't know what to buy at the moment, any suggestions will be highly appreciated!

I'm also extremely disappointed. It really sucks. :| I'm not sure about the AL1923. My guess is that it's still 6-bit + FRC. I think what you should do is wait until a 19" S-IPS display comes out that has a reasonable response time. The 20" versions look very promising.

 

[Michael]

I think that you shoulkd highlight Viewsonic for false advertising in your problems section and warn people not to believe the specs as listed on their website. The 930b monitor does have a fairly nice screen, but I was willing to pay a little extra as it was advertised as an 8-bit monitor when it is not. As a 6-bit monitor, it doesn't have enough extras to justify the higher price.

Michael

 

[mauri]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: mauri
This is just bad news. I've been waiting for ViewSonic VP930 for 12 days now, but I'm so dissapointed now to find out that the VP 930 isn't a 8-bit. Is there any true 19" 8-bit monitors? Is the Acer AL1923 8-bit, or just another 6-Bit + 2-Bit FRC in the end? does anyone have any data on that? I could have the Acer AL1923 for 130? cheaper than VP930 (which I was getting because I thought that it was a true 8-bit monitor). I need recommendations, please.

I had this thread, because I was conserned about VP930 Image quality. It explains what I use my computer at the moment and what I need from it. Oh man, I just don't know what to buy at the moment, any suggestions will be highly appreciated!

I'm also extremely disappointed. It really sucks. :| I'm not sure about the AL1923. My guess is that it's still 6-bit + FRC. I think what you should do is wait until a 19" S-IPS display comes out that has a reasonable response time. The 20" versions look very promising.

I also have strong doubts about the Acer being 8-bit, but I could be wrong.

I would wait, but my problem is that my current 19" CRT is flickering really badly (giving me a bad headache if I use it long), and It has lost its sharpness (very blurry). No matter what resolution, settings or refresh rate doesn't seem to fix it. That is the reason why I'm tryintg to buy a new monitor.

And the 20" S-IPS are more expensive than the 19" displays I was looking for (VP930). and to play at those monitors I need a better graphics card to run games at native resolution (my current card is a X800XL). That combination might be out of my price range at the moment. I was going to get a 19" VP930 and a X1800XT, but 20" and a 1900XT (or similar to run games at 20") is just out of my budget at the moment.

I was thinking that I might as well just buy a 19" and start saving for a bigger and better monitor, but It just feels like wasting cash. If I remember correctly the 20" S-IPS monitors are more expensive at the moment? I might need to start digging more information about those, but which ones do exist at the moment?

edit: typos.

 

[Zebo]

vp930 is a 8bit panel. I don't care what VS euro says ...NEC europe was in error about my monitor too calling it a TN before I corrected them as well... they are just as clueless.. AUO who actually makes it says it's 8bit http://www.auo.com.tw/auoDEV/products.p...itor&func=info&product_id=5&items_id=1


http://www.data-modul.com/de/products/t...ingle_tft_big/DMO_M190EG01_V0.pdf?nav=

"16.7M colors (RGB 8-bit data)"

Originally posted by: xtknight
The ViewSonic VP930 is in fact NOT 8-bit. (as I had suspected for months now!)

http://www.viewsoniceurope.com/DE/Products/LCDProf/VP930.htm

19"-MVA-Farb-TFT-Aktiv-Matrix-LCD-Display, SXGA
16,7 Mio. Farben
(6-Bit + 2-Bit FRC)

Fast 8-bit PVA/MVA panels are a fantasy, but you do get the higher contrast and wide viewing angles. We do still think the S-IPS are true 8-bit displays.

On a good note here's another CeBIT FPD report: http://www.flatpanels.dk/nyhed.php?suba...1142200800&archive=&start_from=&ucat=&

You can tell a 6bit from a 8bit a mile away unless you're color blind.

 

[yacoub]

Are you ever going to add the Sony P234 23" 1920x1200 widescreen S-IPS LCD to your list? It's basically the 2405FPW in 23" (tighter pixel pitch), better measured response rate (I'll have to dig up the link to the review I read recently about it though) and it's S-IPS so there's no input lag and better color reproduction, just not quite as dark blacks. It also can be found for under $990, so it's not terribly more expensive than the 2405FPW even though its MSRP is $1400. Looks like a heck of a monitor for gaming (no input lag) and movie watching (tighter pixel pitch). Haven't heard any complaints about it aside from it having a slightly higher price and less inputs.