LCD Buyer's Guide

[samduhman]

Ok, Im sold on the NEC 20GWMX2 and not becuase of Zebos harrassment This article gave me a huge shove in its direction firing sqauds LCDs and Windows Vista

Now the kicker is I can in no shape or form afford one of these right now. Sure I can put it on my credit card but even at 12% I refuse to pay it. It's going to be months before I can afford one unless Best Buy or Circuit City start to carry it and offer one of their no interest deals. Any idea if BB or CC will carry this LCD?

 

[ZedHash]

Thanks again samduhman. Your help is really appreciated!

Monday my LG just broke down. All I get is a black screen and the cost to repair it is about $75. So I thought about looking for a new one. I was pleasently surprised to find out that you can almost not find a crt display these days. I was forced into looking for a lcd screen instead. I'll be buying one this weekend not entirely sure which one though.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: spectra9

Originally posted by: xtknight
Blah...I'm not that curious. There are fragile things in there. It seems that none of the panels on AUO's site match the 1000:1 contrast ratio stated on the VP930 specs. I'll search further tomorrow.

This one is even 1300:1. Strange thing is, I remember seeing one with 1000:1 there, but I can't seem to find it anymore

I remember seeing a 1000:1 too.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: ZedHash
I need a little advice here. I just rapidly browsed through the sticky and was wondering which lcd display is best suited for mainly using office applications and watching movies and anime. I'm not a perfectionist, but I don't want to be distracted by artifacts etc.

I'd go for the Samsung 940b (not bf).

 

[samduhman]

I thought I saw in another thread that the LG L2000C had the same tube as the NEC 20GWMX2 or something along those lines and was a good option over the more expensive NEC?

I think it was this thread but I don't have time to look right now.

best monitor for under $650

 

[darXoul]

The LG has some color banding issues. Otherwise, it seems like a good monitor. Like the NEC, it's based on one of the new LG.Philips IPS panels. I'm actually surprised that some users report the banding problem.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: darXoul
The LG has some color banding issues. Otherwise, it seems like a good monitor. Like the NEC, it's based on one of the new LG.Philips IPS panels. I'm actually surprised that some users report the banding problem.

Have we heard more than one report of that yet? The guy in the $650 LCD thread said he had only had time to mess with the brightness setting so far.

 

[xtknight]

Ahh, I found the panel the VP930 uses (thanks to tftcentral.co.uk). It is the AU Optronics M190EG01 V0. It previously had said 1000:1 contrast on a preliminary PDF but is now 1300:1. I suppose the ViewSonic has the new 1300:1 panel now because of the same model number. The actual contrast was still measured at 778:1 by THG so ViewSonic lists it at just 1000:1 and doesn't exaggerate further. That's my theory anyway. The PDF for the panel itself says RGB 8-bit color data still. I doubt that's a lie, because AUO lists other panels as 6-bit+FRC. The "11/7/2005" version of the panel still has contrast ratio 1300:1 (typ) and 1000:1 (min), so perhaps ViewSonic lists the minimum. I am quite confident it is that panel, as the color chromacities reported by my VP930b's EDID are quite close to the typicals listed in the PDF.

 

[TecHNooB]

How is the new NEC with consoles? I've nvr dealt with connecting a console to my PC but I think you can either connect a console to the back of the PC or to the monitor itself, correct?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: TecHNooB
How is the new NEC with consoles? I've nvr dealt with connecting a console to my PC but I think you can either connect a console to the back of the PC or to the monitor itself, correct?

The NEC 20" widescreen has tons of inputs. You can take a look at the specs page for it. http://www.necdisplay.com/products/Prod...lassificationFamily=2&Classification=1

Inputs:

DVI-D, VGA 15 pin D-sub, S-video, component, composite

Man I am absolutely dying to get this thing. Finally I will be able to hook up my HDTV tuner's component output and use a decent resolution. My VP930 doesn't accept 1280x720 in DVI or VGA.

 

[darXoul]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Have we heard more than one report of that yet? The guy in the $650 LCD thread said he had only had time to mess with the brightness setting so far.

Yes.

http://www.computerpoweruser.com/editor...es/archive/c0604/31c04/31c04.asp&guid=

"Specifically, MonitorTest revealed some serious banding issues in the Scale Black-Red test. The same was true for Black-Green, Black-Blue, and Black-White. Sure enough, the same issue popped up in our WMV HD playback test, which presented some challenging blue gradients.

(...)

The banding issues are disconcerting, though, as is the exclusion of HDCP."

 

[Zebo]

Man I am absolutely dying to get this thing. Finally I will be able to hook up my HDTV tuner's component output and use a decent resolution.
--------------
It's great! I was doing a a new OS install watched Blade II in the window and time seemed to fly. Now watching PBS in window while talking to you.


RE L2000C - what's "banding" exactly?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Man I am absolutely dying to get this thing. Finally I will be able to hook up my HDTV tuner's component output and use a decent resolution.
--------------
It's great! I was doing a a new OS install watched Blade II in the window and time seemed to fly. Now watching PBS in window while talking to you.


RE L2000C - what's "banding" exactly?

Banding (as I know it) is the wide separation of one pixel shade from the next but I don't now how they define it.

I don't know how much trust to put into 'banding' accusations. Number one, some video codecs induce it to save quality in the decoding process (or maybe even the encoding process). One such codec is H.264, believe it or not. I'm not sure if high-bitrate WMV3 (WMP9/10 HD) resorts to that. CRTs, due to their nature, blend adjacent pixels, but it's not a fault on the LCD as much as it is just an advantage of a CRT in that case. The LCD is displaying what it is supposed to and what it claims to, so how can you hold that against it? I mean, of course there is going to be banding between colors. There are only 256 levels of a primary (red, green, or blue) in the 24-bit color space.

I see about three noticeable-in-plain-sight inconsistent one-pixel-wide lines of bands in the 0-255 gradient on my VP930b in a theoeretical test. If they see lots of banding in a WMV HD video, something is seriously wrong, and it's probably the codec. I did see lots of banding in a H.264 video, and sure enough it was because of the decoder I was using. It was the King Kong trailer if I remember correctly.

In fact, if you see banding, IF it's consistent, that is a good sign that the LCD is displaying a very distinct color, and has extremely high contrast. If it is not consistent, then it is not a good sign. They didn't mention anything about the consistency of it (did they? I didn't read the whole thing), so how can they conclude that the LCD has issues with gradients? In fact, how they say it pops up in so many places makes me wonder if the thing is just high contrast anyway. They are not very specific as to what they are referring to. If it is inconsistent, then it is indeed bad and has bad gamma adjustments. But I don't trust these general magazines so who knows what/how they are testing? They need to be much more specific on what they mean by things. Perhaps they described it in an earlier review somewhere. All they would really have to say was that the gradient was nonlinear and had duplicates of a certain color inside it. They could be talking about a certain color tinge on a portion of the gradient for all I know, which happens in a lot of 8-bit gamma LCDs and is really only virtually eliminated at 14-bit gamma or higher.

 

[MarkShot]

Xtnight,

The NEC LCD2180UX and NEC LCD2190UXi are both 21.3" displays. However, I don't see what the difference is between them other than the latter is more expensive and not widely available.

Will the response time of 20ms for the LCD2180UX be adequate for the type of games which I play (see earlier posts)?

---

The following LCD displays in 20" are available locally such that I could pick it up and return it myself with no restocking fees if I wasn't satisfied with it:

LG Flatron L2013P
Samsung SyncMaster 204B
Sony StylePro SDM-S204/B
Samsung SyncMaster 204T

Samsung SyncMaster 213T {21.3"}

Would you recommend any of the above for my needs?

A friend of mine raves about his NEC LCD2180UX. Unfortunately, I am in the USA and he is in Germany so I cannot see it in action. Aside from the slightly increased screen realestate is a NEC LCD like the 2180UX worth the premium it will cost?

You asked about my budget earlier. I can afford LCDs in the $1,000-$2,000 USD range, but I don't want to spend money needlessly if it can be avoided.

(At the moment, I am leaning towards the NEC 2180UX.)

Thanks.

 

[Zebo]

I thought banding was when a color gradiant is displayed it's not smooth trasitions from dark to light, indicative of a 6bit usually which this L2000C would fail to meet..


CRTs, due to their nature, blend adjacent pixels,
-------------
Combined with being analog now you know why I've said CRTs really have unlimited colors. It's a flaw rather than feature.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: MarkShot
Xtnight,

The NEC LCD2180UX and NEC LCD2190UXi are both 21.3" displays. However, I don't see what the difference is between them other than the latter is more expensive and not widely available.

Will the response time of 20ms for the LCD2180UX be adequate for the type of games which I play (see earlier posts)?

---

The following LCD displays in 20" are available locally such that I could pick it up and return it myself with no restocking fees if I wasn't satisfied with it:

LG Flatron L2013P
Samsung SyncMaster 204B
Sony StylePro SDM-S204/B
Samsung SyncMaster 204T

Samsung SyncMaster 213T {21.3"}

Would you recommend any of the above for my needs?

A friend of mine raves about his NEC LCD2180UX. Unfortunately, I am in the USA and he is in Germany so I cannot see it in action. Aside from the slightly increased screen realestate is a NEC LCD like the 2180UX worth the premium it will cost?

You asked about my budget earlier. I can afford LCDs in the $1,000-$2,000 USD range, but I don't want to spend money needlessly if it can be avoided.

(At the moment, I am leaning towards the NEC 2180UX.)

Thanks.

90 is newer, 2006 model, uses new generaton panel. NEC tells the truth unlike samsung about thier response time.. so if the say 16ms they mean it across spectrum which is good. Dar thinks it's understated by NEC, using the 12ms (6ms grey to grey) AS-IPS so i let him comment as to the justification. Eitherway you'd want the 90 though from those two simply because it's newer and brighter.

 

[xtknight]

I just made a simple gradient test. The first set of alternating lines will display a 17-step pattern of red, green, and blue depending on line number. It starts with black, then goes, 16, 32, 48 all the way to 256 (really 255). The second set of alternating lines will display all possible colors (256-step). Resizing of the window isn't allowed because it would make some colors longer than others, bad for the 256-step test. In the window's caption (title bar) it states the dimensions of each color step in WxH pixels. I see hardly any discontinuities on my VP930b with the 256-step pattern.

The first bar of color in all the 17-step and 256-step patterns should be pure black. The 17-step pattern SHOULD have discontinuities but that's to help you calibrate easier (hard to calibrate on 256 steps). The 256-step is used to find inconsistencies in the gradient.

http://xtknight.atothosting.com/tools/gradlin-v0.1.exe

Zebo, if you don't mind, let me know how your NEC does on both of these. The 17-step should have equal bumps of color brightness across the whole scale (16 brightness each to be exact). Well, there is only a jump of 15 on the last one because 16 isn't a perfect multiple of 255, but don't worry about that. As for the 256-step pattern, just make sure there are no discontinuities/inconsistencies across the gradient. If you see consistent steps in the 256-step pattern, your monitor has REALLY high contrast.

 

[xtknight]

MarkShot: Sorry, I must not have replied to your earlier post. I'm not sure how I missed it.

Originally posted by: MarkShot
Xtnight,

The NEC LCD2180UX and NEC LCD2190UXi are both 21.3" displays. However, I don't see what the difference is between them other than the latter is more expensive and not widely available.

Neither do I. The 21.3"s aren't worth it IMO, definitely not when coupled with the bigger dot pitch.

Will the response time of 20ms for the LCD2180UX be adequate for the type of games which I play (see earlier posts)?

I would tend to think so. LG Philips LCD measures their response time more accurately than others, but I won't say for sure. My Samsung 710T TN with a measured 20+ ms was more than fast enough for ANY gaming as far as I was concerned.

The following LCD displays in 20" are available locally such that I could pick it up and return it myself with no restocking fees if I wasn't satisfied with it:

LG Flatron L2013P
Samsung SyncMaster 204B
Sony StylePro SDM-S204/B
Samsung SyncMaster 204T

The L2013P sounds enticing.

A quick Google for the L2013P reveals at least three reviews: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=LG+Flatron+L2013P&btnG=Google+Search

Specs here: http://www.lgsuperseller.com/product/in...umod_id=100428&umod_name=L2013P&flag=1

It is an S-IPS so it should have very good color reproduction. I am betting 16 ms on the IPS ones will be just fine. You might want to wait until we get more info on the L2000C though, as it has a faster response time and twice as high contrast.

The 204B is perfect for gaming but it won't have the high contrast or color accuracy the above-mentioned LG monitors will.

Unfortunately I wouldn't even consider the Sony ones. I have seen too many horrible response graphs on Sony monitors, and have had too many Sony devices fail. They are also almost always priced higher than what they perform at.

Given the 204T's S-PVA panel I don't think it would be fast enough. Samsung rates their overdrive LCDs as 6 ms.

Samsung SyncMaster 213T {21.3"}

Un-overdriven S-PVA panel; way too slow 25 ms rating. Plus the 21.3" ones aren't worth it in my opinion.

A friend of mine raves about his NEC LCD2180UX. Unfortunately, I am in the USA and he is in Germany so I cannot see it in action. Aside from the slightly increased screen realestate is a NEC LCD like the 2180UX worth the premium it will cost?

Not over the 2090UXi unless there is another difference besides size that I am aware of. The 2080UX just looks too slow. Go for the A-TW-IPS LCD2090UXi that has a faster panel inside. It's well worth the price also given its color calibration features. Though almost all the S-IPS panel LCDs are very good, read a couple reviews on the LCD2090UXi just to make sure it's what you want. Given NEC vs. LG, I'd go for the NEC ones.

It's easy for me to say but I think you should bite the bullet and spend the dough on the LCD2090UXi even if you can't return it without a fee. I really doubt at that price they could make a monitor that would dissatisfy you. If that model doesn't satisfy you I don't know what will.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Combined with being analog now you know why I've said CRTs really have unlimited colors. It's a flaw rather than feature.

Well I knew they were (virtually?) unlimited, but I just wondered where you got 32 million :Q from in one of your PMs.

Yes CRT's display more color 32 million [...]

 

[MarkShot]

Xtnight,

Thanks for the response.

So, the larger dot pitch on the 21.3" displays means what when viewing it? The image will look grainy?

How much more screen viewing area does the extra 1.3" add?

In looking at the specs between 2090UXi and the 2190UXi, it seems that by stepping down in terms of the screen area that response time (20ms -> 16ms), brightness (250->280 cd/m2), and contrast (500:1->700:1) are increased. I don't have any sense of what these numbers mean. From your experience, will these the differences in these parameters be noticeable in normal use?

---

The NEC user manual lists four ways to scale a non-native resolution image:

(1) Full
(2) 1:1
(3) Aspect
(4) Custom (says they have 9 different options)

I know what the first three options are. Are you familiar with #4? Could you explain it to me, since the manual does not go into any detail?

Once again, thanks for your time.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: MarkShot
So, the larger dot pitch on the 21.3" displays means what when viewing it? The image will look grainy?

Each pixel is bigger, so the image will look a little bigger without being higher resolution. It's just a bigger picture at the same resolution.

How much more screen viewing area does the extra 1.3" add?

Nothing noticeable. I'm not even sure why they even have 21.3". I don't think you could hardly tell looking at both side by side.

In looking at the specs between 2090UXi and the 2190UXi, it seems that by stepping down in terms of the screen area that response time (20ms -> 16ms), brightness (250->280 cd/m2), and contrast (500:1->700:1) are increased. I don't have any sense of what these numbers mean. From your experience, will these the differences in these parameters be noticeable in normal use?

Well unless you have a reason to get a 21.3" screen vs. a 20.1" screen I see no reason to go with the 21.3" especially because it's more expensive. As long as the 20.1" screen looks better on paper, I'd go for it. I'm not sure if any of that would yield anything noticeable but response time probably would.

The NEC user manual lists four ways to scale a non-native resolution image:

(1) Full
(2) 1:1
(3) Aspect
(4) Custom (says they have 9 different options)

Custom? Hmm...sorry, not sure about that. You'd have to ask Zebo, maybe he knows. It sounds interesting though. Maybe that'll be the best way for you to scale your games.

 

[avd1971]

Hi guys

I am able to get my hands on a new ACER AL1923R for basically half the recommended retail price in Australia through a mate ... I was planning on agreeing to buy it for the price alone, but I was wondering if you guys think it is a good monitor for gaming.

I know it made the list of recommended monitors in the second list in this thread ("higer contrast, decent speed" category), but as for the rest of what is being said in this thread, i have no idea what any of it means. I've tried understanding it, but it is all greek to me.

The specs on Acer's website says a response time of 8, but on the front page of this thread it says g2g/bwb - 8ms/20ms .. so does that mean their website is conveniently referring only to the grey to grey number .. as a lot of the other monitors seem to have an 8ms response time for the black to black figure (is the bwb number a better reflection of the monitoirs true capablities?). In other words, does a 20ms time for bwb really indicate that the monitor is not going to be very good for gaming?

Like I said, I was thinking of buying it for the price as I am sure it is a great monitor for most puropses, but even though it is a good price, it is still money I don't need to spend if I am going to get a better gaming experience from my current CRT monitor which i have no problems with.

Thanks for any help ... much appreciated.

 

[xtknight]

Welcome to the forums.

Originally posted by: avd1971
I am able to get my hands on a new ACER AL1923R for basically half the recommended retail price in Australia through a mate ... I was planning on agreeing to buy it for the price alone, but I was wondering if you guys think it is a good monitor for gaming.

At least one user on here thought so. We are fairly sure it uses the same electronics as a monitor that is good at gaming, the VP930b.

The specs on Acer's website says a response time of 8, but on the front page of this thread it says g2g/bwb - 8ms/20ms .. so does that mean their website is conveniently referring only to the grey to grey number .. as a lot of the other monitors seem to have an 8ms response time for the black to black figure (is the bwb number a better reflection of the monitoirs true capablities?). In other words, does a 20ms time for bwb really indicate that the monitor is not going to be very good for gaming?

Gray to gray is actually a better measurement of real-life pixel transitions. The black-white-black measurement is conservative in this case. An actual 20 ms bwb is quite good. I have the VP930b (8 ms g2g/20 ms bwb) and I think it's fine for gaming. A little slower than the fastest? Yeah, but it's still pretty fast and I like the high contrast.

Like I said, I was thinking of buying it for the price as I am sure it is a great monitor for most puropses, but even though it is a good price, it is still money I don't need to spend if I am going to get a better gaming experience from my current CRT monitor which i have no problems with.

You'll have to decide on that one. (Are there enough advantages of an LCD for you to toss your CRT?) I recommend you check it out in the store.

 

[avd1971]

xtknight

Thank you very much for your reply mate ... much appreciated. IF/When I get it, I will let you know how it went (not for another two weeks or so yet).

Just like to say, you guys are a godsend ... stumbled here by accident ... honestly can't understand a word of most the discussion LOL ... but I think I now have enough of a grasp of the basics to know what to look for when assessing my own needs in a monitor.

cheers

 

[darXoul]

Some comments about the 20 inchers:

- NEC 2090UXi should be an awesome monitor. It's predecessor, the 2080UXi was highly praised as a fantastic allround display with great colors, viewing angles, contrast and very good blacks, response time and backlight. It is/was considered one of the best, if not THE best 20" LCD. The 2090 should be a great monitor as well. 8 ms g2g on an IPS panel is likely to be great also for gamers. RapidMotion should improve video playback. It's a high quality device, I don't know why it only got 3.5/5 in the PC Mag review. TBH, the article seemed pretty weak and worthless - rather a description of features, plus some vague performance evaluation, not a real "test".

- Samsung 204B is a good gaming monitor but I wouldn't call it perfect, even in this area of usage. First off, according to pretty much all semi-professional reviews I've seen, it seems slower than some fast displays with only marginally better listed response time. Some people claim Samsung might be fooling around with specs (again) since 5 ms looks very good which is not necessarily confirmed in practice. Maybe Zebo can comment on it, since he has given the 204B a test drive. Moreover, the monitor's vertical viewing angle is for sure an issue, IMO even for gamers. It's extremely annoying that even when the Windows shutdown screen appears, the two horizontal dark blue bars are totally different in terms of color/gradient/hue/saturation/whatever you call it. With the new IPS's around, it's pretty hard to justify a TN purchase now.