LCD Buyer's Guide

[pencilcase]

Originally posted by: xtknight

VGA is only as good as the device from which it's generated (the RAMDAC). VGA has the potential to be very good. That's the case with my VP930b, but I'm sorry to hear your experience was far from mine. Of course, it could be the monitors at fault

I was eventually able to get a clear picture on the Sony by pressing the Reset button on the OSD menu. I tried it on both my laptop and my desktop and it produced clear text. So, it seems that the vga signal from my graphics card is ok.

The problem is that I have tried all sorts of adjustments on the SM770P but I can still not get clear text. When I press the Auto-setup button in MagicTune, it runs through a scale of 0 to 100, reaches a point where text seems reasonably clear and then shifts out of focus again by the time it reaches 100. It's very frustrating as the whole thing happens very quickly and there's no way of stopping it at the optimal setting.

I've also tried all sorts of tweaks using softMCCS including the Auto-Adjust and Set to Factory defaults functions, but to no avail. Internet browsing is so uncomfortable that it makes my eyes hurt after just 5 or 10 minutes of using the monitor.

I'm not sure how laptops are hooked up so the 15" display may be getting a digital signal, or perhaps a better-quality analog one.

True, in "Graphics Properties" my laptop LCD shows up as digital.

Is there anything I can do to resolve this issue short of buying a new computer?

New laptop I assume? You can just slip a PCI/AGP/PCIe video card with DVI in your computer, right? If your laptop doesn't have a modular graphics module (like NVIDIA's MXM) I'm afraid that is the case. Unless there is some USB or PCMCIA solution, but I'm not familiar with that area.

I see. Unfortunately, my desktop is a SFF system with no expansion slot other than one mini-PCI, so upgrading to discrete graphics is not an option. However, I'll probably have to factor it in in future builds. When planning my current system I thought that onboard graphics would be sufficient as I had no intention of playing games or doing fancy photo work, but I now wish I'd paid more attention to the differences between VGA and DVI.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: pencilcase

VGA is only as good as the device from which it's generated (the RAMDAC). VGA has the potential to be very good. That's the case with my VP930b, but I'm sorry to hear your experience was far from mine. Of course, it could be the monitors at fault

I was eventually able to get a clear picture on the Sony by pressing the Reset button on the OSD menu. I tried it on both my laptop and my desktop and it produced clear text. So, it seems that the vga signal from my graphics card is ok.

In VGA mode, 'phase' and 'clock' options should appear in the OSD (they may be called 'coarse' and 'fine' as well). These should allow you to adjust it to where-ever the auto-adjust hit in the middle.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Ok, here are the two I am looking at:

1. Dell 2407FPW

Concerned about the possible banding issues on this one, but at least it is HDCP compliant.

2. BenQ FP241W

No HDCP compliance that I can see, but I like the 1080P HD support, so could double as my HDTV though with no HDCP who knows. Warranty is probably not as good as Dell's. $50 cheaper is nice.

This will mainly be for gaming in the new rig I am about to build which should be tough enough (I'm hoping) to handle the 1920x1200 native resolution, at least for a few moths anyway. May watch some movies on it as well.

So can anyone help me out here? I feel that the two are pretty evenly matched, but I just can't decide. Has anyone used the BenQ?

Thanks in advance guys!!

Edit: I saw one person on AVS Forums say the BenQ had HDCP, but I have been unable to confirm or deny this.

I haven't heard about the BenQ much (there have been no reviews). The banding on the Dell is supposed to have been fixed by now, no? It looks like the BenQ uses the same S-PVA panel and it uses overdrive. It's the first monitor with Black Frame Insertion (BFI) to smooth/speed up motion. I recommend you wait until there have been a couple reviews of the FP241W or at least one review by a good site like Tom's Hardware or BeHardware.

Here's the press release on it: http://www.benq.com/press/News.cfm?id=1343&cat=0

 

[KeithTalent]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Ok, here are the two I am looking at:

1. Dell 2407FPW

Concerned about the possible banding issues on this one, but at least it is HDCP compliant.

2. BenQ FP241W

No HDCP compliance that I can see, but I like the 1080P HD support, so could double as my HDTV though with no HDCP who knows. Warranty is probably not as good as Dell's. $50 cheaper is nice.

This will mainly be for gaming in the new rig I am about to build which should be tough enough (I'm hoping) to handle the 1920x1200 native resolution, at least for a few moths anyway. May watch some movies on it as well.

So can anyone help me out here? I feel that the two are pretty evenly matched, but I just can't decide. Has anyone used the BenQ?

Thanks in advance guys!!

Edit: I saw one person on AVS Forums say the BenQ had HDCP, but I have been unable to confirm or deny this.

I haven't heard about the BenQ much (there have been no reviews). The banding on the Dell is supposed to have been fixed by now, no? It looks like the BenQ uses the same S-PVA panel and it uses overdrive. It's the first monitor with Black Frame Insertion (BFI) to smooth/speed up motion. I recommend you wait until there have been a couple reviews of the FP241W or at least one review by a good site like Tom's Hardware or BeHardware.

Here's the press release on it: http://www.benq.com/press/News.cfm?id=1343&cat=0

Great, thanks for the tips. Luckily I am not building for about another month(ish) so I have some time to wait.

That will give me time to read and digest everything you wrote in the OP

Thanks again :beer:

 

[dahuang1]

Just wanted to post a thanks to xtknight - based on his lcdresource.com , I chose the Viewsonic 2025. This updated a 1996 ADI 5v (17" crt) montior that had a high pitch whine for the last 10 years... after getting tired of smashing the side of that old beast, and seeing that lcd's don't have the blurry text problem anymore, I couldn't be happier. The extra desk room is awesome. Game and video performance are good for me (video is not quite as good as crt). I am an amature photographer as well and am satisfied the color performance is good enough for me.

I did want to say, in case it has been missed in these many many posts, that I did have trouble getting the monitor installed on my computer. Best guess is that since it was an analog monitor before, it wouldn't bother looking for a digital one. Looked on the net, un-hooked all the power cords, then hit the power buttons (with a little peep from the computer), hooked back up and then the DVI worked just fine. I read a bunch of reviews at newegg where people sent monitors back thinking they were defective, but this was an easy fix.

Keep up the good work!
Geoff

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: dahuang1
I did want to say, in case it has been missed in these many many posts, that I did have trouble getting the monitor installed on my computer. Best guess is that since it was an analog monitor before, it wouldn't bother looking for a digital one. Looked on the net, un-hooked all the power cords, then hit the power buttons (with a little peep from the computer), hooked back up and then the DVI worked just fine. I read a bunch of reviews at newegg where people sent monitors back thinking they were defective, but this was an easy fix.

Keep up the good work!
Geoff

I'm not sure if this was your problem or not but there is that infamous VX2025WM DVI issue. This program (firmware flash) is supposed to fix it for good (scroll down a bit):

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1040780

Unless I'm missing something this only occurs before Windows boots so it's minor at best though IMO. Also only NVIDIA is affected as far as I know. It's a great monitor all around. I recommend only running the program if you continue to have issues (your problem could have been completely different and software-related).

 

[pencilcase]

Originally posted by: xtknight

In VGA mode, 'phase' and 'clock' options should appear in the OSD (they may be called 'coarse' and 'fine' as well). These should allow you to adjust it to where-ever the auto-adjust hit in the middle.

xtknight, a couple of speculative questions:

1) Is it possible that the problems I'm having with text are the effects of overdrive?

2) Hitting the 'auto-setup' or 'restore factory defaults' doesn't produce consistent results. Is such variation normal?

Thanks again for your patience!

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: pencilcase
1) Is it possible that the problems I'm having with text are the effects of overdrive?

Overdrive only affects objects in motion.

2) Hitting the 'auto-setup' or 'restore factory defaults' doesn't produce consistent results. Is such variation normal?

Yeah, an analog signal is never perfect so the tuned settings will never be the same.

I think the problem stems from a weak analog signal being transmitted but unfortunately I'm not sure. Have you tried messing with phase and clock? Is the text clear when using 'centered mode' and a lower resolution at 60 Hz (that should ease up stress on the VGA signal)? I recommend turning off ClearType for debugging, because ClearType is more a font smoother than a font sharpener.

 

[imported_Psykosis]

I see. Unfortunately, my desktop is a SFF system with no expansion slot other than one mini-PCI, so upgrading to discrete graphics is not an option. However, I'll probably have to factor it in in future builds. When planning my current system I thought that onboard graphics would be sufficient as I had no intention of playing games or doing fancy photo work, but I now wish I'd paid more attention to the differences between VGA and DVI.

Hi PencilCase, I was going to ask you if you can run some test on your SM770p to see if you can get the dithering everyone is complaining on the bigger model 970p, but since you're using a VGA input (plus the size of the panel) its likely that you can't get any consistent result.

 

[pencilcase]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: pencilcase
1) Is it possible that the problems I'm having with text are the effects of overdrive?

Overdrive only affects objects in motion.

2) Hitting the 'auto-setup' or 'restore factory defaults' doesn't produce consistent results. Is such variation normal?

Yeah, an analog signal is never perfect so the tuned settings will never be the same.

I think the problem stems from a weak analog signal being transmitted but unfortunately I'm not sure. Have you tried messing with phase and clock? Is the text clear when using 'centered mode' and a lower resolution at 60 Hz (that should ease up stress on the VGA signal)? I recommend turning off ClearType for debugging, because ClearType is more a font smoother than a font sharpener.

A couple of weeks ago I visited my local PC World store and had a look at the monitors on display. Among them was a Samsung 713BM which took my breath away with its clear picture. Colourwise it was nothing special but text was pin sharp. Unfortunately, I didn't notice whether the computer it was connected to had a separate graphics card nor did I check whether the connection was via DVI.

Well, today I visited the same store again and was really taken aback to discover that that monitor has exactly the same problem as my 770P. This time the 713BM was connected via VGA to a computer with onboard graphics. I had my laptop with me and had the opportunity to test the 713BM with it. Again, exactly the same fuzziness and the same white shadows around black text on coloured background...:Q

I then asked if I could connect my laptop to a Xerox monitor, the XA7-17i. In the store the XA7-17i was connected to a computer with ATI Radeon onboard graphics by means of a DVI-I to VGA adaptor (so the same setup as I am using at home with my 770P). The Xerox monitor was nothing to write home about, but displayed text without problems both when connected to my laptop and to the store computer.

Finally, I asked to be shown a monitor connected to a computer with DVI output and a discrete graphics card. Again, text was clear but in addition pictures looked sharper and more vivid.

The conclusion I'm tempted to draw from this is that Samsung monitors (or at least certain models) are unable to display text clearly unless connected to a computer with a discrete graphics card and possibly DVI output as well. It's a real shame as my 770P is in all other respects far superior to the monitors I saw in the store today (and also to the Sony SDM-S95DR I tried previously).

I dropped the resolution down to 1280x768 (the next step down from 1280x1024 offered by my graphics card) and left the refresh rate at 60Hz but there was no improvement. I've also tried tweaking the phase and clock, and have turned ClearType off, but even at its best text is still not good enough.

Psykosis, I've noticed what I think is dithering (in movies) but it didn't really bother me much. If there's any particular test that you would like me to do, let me know.

 

[nyllefjun]

Hello!

Bit of new around these parts of the internet, I hope its okay I ask questions in here instead of starting a new thread.

I'm completely new to TFT monitors as I've been using a 17" Philips 107E for the last 6+ years. I feel its getting a bit unsharp and I could use a bit more deskspace. I've read reviews at several sites and read the FAQ at tftcentral but its still not easy knowing what I should look for when when picking out a new monitor. The more I read the more confused I get, one site praises a monitor while the next one sais that you can easily find a better one.

I will be using the monitor mostly for watching movies and playing games but also some graphical work so therefor I'm looking for a good allround monitor.

I've been looking at the following monitors:

Hyundai 19'' TFT L90+
Samsung 19" TFT 940Fn
Samsung 19" TFT 970P
Samsung 19'' TFT 193p Plus
Viewsonic 19" TFT VP930

If its of any use, I like the design of the 193P Plus the most.

 

[imported_Psykosis]

pencilcase: Thanks very much, what I'm looking for is to check if the SM770p has THIS PROBLEM

As you can see, there is a *static* pattern running through the gradient. This picture was took on a SM970p on a DVI interface, and I supect that the panel was calibrated somehow.

You can use THIS PAGE to test it:

I will try to do it myself this week on the only 770p unit Samsung has on the whole country, but I'm not sure if they will agree to let me tweak it.

Thanks again.

nyllefjun: add thouse to your list
Acer AL1923 19" (AUO P-MVA)
HP L1955 19" (P-MVA)

 

[pencilcase]

Psykosis, that was an interesting test, thanks! Nope, I couldn't detect any dithering. The colours were solid, there was no pattern running through the gradient such as the one seen in that photo.

The monitor has generally performed admirably in most tests I've done. As far as I can tell, the only really noticeable problem (apart from really poor text reproduction on VGA) is the monitor's inability to distinguish between the darker shades of black.

 

[imported_Psykosis]

Psykosis, that was an interesting test, thanks!

pencilcase: Many thanks to you, this are good news Perhaps that explains why none of the sm770p owners report to have this problem.
I will try to test it myself on Samsung's showroom using THIS test picture. ddanky (the one that first posted about this problem) says that he can see the dithering near the block that have 0-25 numbering over it at its left side.

About the text quality using the VGA input, part of the problem can be the cable itself, anyway, I remember that Samsung's MagicTune software has some kind of sharpness control for the text that usually is at 100% by default, but perhaps experimenting a bit you can find a more suitable setting. About that, I found this on a forum:

My recommendation is to use a graphics program to display about a 50% gray screen on the monitor. Use the coarse picture adjustment to get rid of the interference patterns (alternating bands of light and dark). Then use the fine picture adjustment to obtain a uniform jitter-free image all across the screen. After I did this, the monitor has the sharpest text of any display I have ever seen.

 

[nyllefjun]

Thanks Psykosis! Now I have 7 instead of 5 monitors to choose from and I still need advice on which one to get.

 

[pencilcase]

Psykosis, I ran the Online Monitor Test again this morning, and this time when I got to the colour range test screen I noticed something strange between the bottom two bands of colour. It's like a wave of a different colour (blue-velvet?) rising and falling as it sweeps along the screen. Look out for it if you get the chance to test the monitor.

About the text quality using the VGA input, part of the problem can be the cable itself, anyway, I remember that Samsung's MagicTune software has some kind of sharpness control for the text that usually is at 100% by default, but perhaps experimenting a bit you can find a more suitable setting. About that, I found this on a forum:

My recommendation is to use a graphics program to display about a 50% gray screen on the monitor. Use the coarse picture adjustment to get rid of the interference patterns (alternating bands of light and dark). Then use the fine picture adjustment to obtain a uniform jitter-free image all across the screen. After I did this, the monitor has the sharpest text of any display I have ever seen.

I swapped the cable for a much thicker one but there was no improvement. I also performed the fine and coarse adjustments as per instructions above but the problem persists. I really think this monitor has trouble processing the VGA signal from onboard graphics, which makes it totally unsuitable for use with either my laptop or my SFF desktop. Unfortunately, it looks like I will have to return it for a refund.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: nyllefjun
Hello!

Bit of new around these parts of the internet, I hope its okay I ask questions in here instead of starting a new thread.

Welcome, and yep, I think they prefer you keep LCD buying questions here.

I will be using the monitor mostly for watching movies and playing games but also some graphical work so therefor I'm looking for a good allround monitor.

I've been looking at the following monitors:

Hyundai 19'' TFT L90+
Samsung 19" TFT 940Fn
Samsung 19" TFT 970P
Samsung 19'' TFT 193p Plus
Viewsonic 19" TFT VP930

If its of any use, I like the design of the 193P Plus the most.

Either the Samsung 970P or ViewSonic VP930 are optimal for your purposes because of the high-contrast panels they include. I'm afraid the 193p+'s response time is too slow. Keep in mind the 970P lacks an OSD (monitor setup). You can only adjust options from software like Samsung MagicTune or Entech Taiwan softMCCS. The NVIDIA graphics card control panel also has "Direct Adjustment" options which are the same thing. Despite the price of the 970P being much higher, there is not much advantage to it other than the "Samsung" brand itself. Yes, it does have a slightly higher contrast, but the difference is probably within manufacturing error. Well, also, I've heard of less backlight bleeding on the 970P. I did have some on my VP930 and originally I thought it was pretty bad. In use though it never showed up unless on a really dark screen. When that happens it's best to use a low brightness, and that should help to reduce the perceived bleeding. I think mine has slightly disappeared since (it can disappear over time, just ask NEC 20WGX2 owners ).

 

[imported_Psykosis]

Originally posted by: pencilcase
Psykosis, I ran the Online Monitor Test again this morning, and this time when I got to the colour range test screen I noticed something strange between the bottom two bands of colour. It's like a wave of a different colour (blue-velvet?) rising and falling as it sweeps along the screen. Look out for it if you get the chance to test the monitor.

I bet that this can be some sort of interference, product of the VGA input. I will watch out anyway.

Unfortunately, it looks like I will have to return it for a refund.

That's bad, because there are few 17" monitor that uses *va pannels, but if you can't get the best of it on your actual configuration better to start searching for something better. I think that your best choice will be a model inluding separate DVI and VGA inputs (instead of the DVI-I integrated input of the sm770p). Viewsonic, Nec and HP all got good models with this configuration. If the speed is not an issue to you, I can recomend HP's 17" professional line, they are slow (20ms) but because of that they have an excellent image quality.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: pencilcase
Psykosis, I ran the Online Monitor Test again this morning, and this time when I got to the colour range test screen I noticed something strange between the bottom two bands of colour. It's like a wave of a different colour (blue-velvet?) rising and falling as it sweeps along the screen. Look out for it if you get the chance to test the monitor.

That's probably dithering/FRC. The 770P and 970P both use PVA panels that dither AFAIK. S-PVAs are true 8-bit.

 

[dahuang1]

Originally posted by: xtknight

I'm not sure if this was your problem or not but there is that infamous VX2025WM DVI issue. This program (firmware flash) is supposed to fix it for good (scroll down a bit):..

Yeah - that looks like what I had (VGA worked, but DVI did not), but I found some post somwhere to simply just pulling the power cords and then powering on the monitor and computer which seems to get rid of any residual power in the capacitors allowed the DVI to work. Strange fix, but worked for me! If that would have worked for all those other people imagine how many shipping charges could have been saved.

 

[imported_Psykosis]

Jej xtknight and I understood something different, pencilcase, this "wave" is static/fixed or pulsates or move somehow?

xtknight I'm perplex about all this S-PVA vs PVA issue. The fact is that Samsung didn't have any 17/19" S-PVA pannel on production, but the monitor is listed and commented like S-PVA on many specialized sites (even on some china/korea sites that usually have the best and direct info). Has Samsung *changed* the denomination of his own pannel after the monitor release?

 

[nyllefjun]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Either the Samsung 970P or ViewSonic VP930 are optimal for your purposes because of the high-contrast panels they include. I'm afraid the 193p+'s response time is too slow. Keep in mind the 970P lacks an OSD (monitor setup). You can only adjust options from software like Samsung MagicTune or Entech Taiwan softMCCS. The NVIDIA graphics card control panel also has "Direct Adjustment" options which are the same thing. Despite the price of the 970P being much higher, there is not much advantage to it other than the "Samsung" brand itself. Yes, it does have a slightly higher contrast, but the difference is probably within manufacturing error. Well, also, I've heard of less backlight bleeding on the 970P. I did have some on my VP930 and originally I thought it was pretty bad. In use though it never showed up unless on a really dark screen. When that happens it's best to use a low brightness, and that should help to reduce the perceived bleeding. I think mine has slightly disappeared since (it can disappear over time, just ask NEC 20WGX2 owners ).

Thank you for the advice!

I read in the spring collection 2006 the following about 970P:

"If you're looking for a consumer-level monitor that's capable of professional-level photo display, the 970P is for you. But again we're dealing with a specialized monitor. It simply can't be used for screening video."
That doesn't sound to positive. :/
Then again, all TFT monitors I've read about seems to have flaws but with the 970P, if its flawed in videos/games then it has quite annoying flaws.

What makes the 193P+ to slow? Its 2ms slower then the 970P but equal to the VP930?

The Hyundai 19'' TFT L90+ was good when it came to the market but the other monitors are I mentioned are better today?

What do you know about the 940Fn? It seems to be the one which is less known of all.

 

[martman]

I am leaning heavily towards buying the Samsung 244t. I mostly websurf, some gaming, and the occasional photo edit and on the side a small serving of dvd viewing. Will this monitor serve me well for these purposes? my system specs below....*note* (I am currently in queue for step-up to evga7900 gtx sc if thats makes a difference for screen resolutions.) *edit*I suppose I should state that I want a 24"

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: nyllefjun
Thank you for the advice!

I read in the spring collection 2006 the following about 970P:

"If you're looking for a consumer-level monitor that's capable of professional-level photo display, the 970P is for you. But again we're dealing with a specialized monitor. It simply can't be used for screening video."
That doesn't sound to positive. :/
Then again, all TFT monitors I've read about seems to have flaws but with the 970P, if its flawed in videos/games then it has quite annoying flaws.

That conflicts with X-Bit Lab's results. The RTC error is extremely low here whereas on the 960BF it was in excess of 200%. http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/response-compensation_13.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/19inch-4_27.html

Thanks for bringing the article to my attention as I will now replace the 970P recommendation with the 193P+ (less artifacts according to X-Bit). Still I have heard at least a few people that have been perfectly happy with the 970P for gaming. The response time is <20 ms. for normal tones just like a TN.

What makes the 193P+ to slow? Its 2ms slower then the 970P but equal to the VP930?

Turns out the 193P+ does have overdrive (however the 193P (no plus) does not). The PVA 193P without overdrive hits 200 ms. :shocked: Nevertheless the 193P+ is fast with overdrive. So your choices change to: Samsung 193P+ and ViewSonic VP930. Sorry for the confusion.

The Hyundai 19'' TFT L90+ was good when it came to the market but the other monitors are I mentioned are better today?

The L90D+ is plagued with vertical dead pixel problems and it's not that great of a screen anymore by today's standards. It's only a low-contrast TN also.

What do you know about the 940Fn? It seems to be the one which is less known of all.

It's PVA, but I'd stick with the 193P+ for now since it got a good review from X-Bit and I haven't heard anything about the 940Fn. Then again, who knows what THG will have to say about its overdrive? I still do think the THG results for the 970P were screwed up, or the way they judge RTC error is way too strict. I've heard many happy 970P owners.

The 193P+ is even more expensive at a whopping $600 versus the $550 970P, and it still dithers! Are you sure you don't want a true 8-bit 20" widescreen like the VX2025WM instead? (It sounded like you were looking at 19" only.) The Samsung 215TW is the best for graphical work but the VX2025WM is a good balance too (the 215TW may be a tad slow for your tastes). Both use no dithering and are true 8-bit panels. If there is anywhere you can check the 215TW out, I recommend you do that and if you find the response time acceptable, go for that. If not, you would surely be happy with the response time of the VX2025WM. It won't be as high-contrast, but still above average.

As for the monitors Psykosis mentioned, I haven't been able to find any reputable pro reviews on them. I heard one happy Acer AL1923 owner and I actually had it on the recommendations for a while (very cheap high-contrast screen). I decided since there'd been no professional reviews I'd pull it. Even though I'm 90% sure it's fine, that's just not enough to be able to recommend it in the long run. I'm more confident in recommending the VP930 over the AL1923 for now. Until I see a pro review of the HP I can't recommend it either. If you see it in person and it looks decent, you should consider it though.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: martman
I am leaning heavily towards buying the Samsung 244t. I mostly websurf, some gaming, and the occasional photo edit and on the side a small serving of dvd viewing. Will this monitor serve me well for these purposes? my system specs below....*note* (I am currently in queue for step-up to evga7900 gtx sc if thats makes a difference for screen resolutions.) *edit*I suppose I should state that I want a 24"

The Dell 2407WFP is a tad better for cheaper. You can check out this article: http://www.behardware.com/articles/629-...uces-dell-2407wfp-vs-samsung-244t.html