LCD Buyer's Guide

[cbreathe]

Originally posted by: lepump
Sometimes this thread feels like a NEC 20WMGX2 commercial

Maybe xtKnight is a plant.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: lepump
Sometimes this thread feels like a NEC 20WMGX2 commercial

XL20 released in Japan
http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/22/sams...he-720td-711nd-and-xl20-lcds-in-japan/
but no price.. shamed!

On this page it lists 160,000 JPY. That's $1,370.80 USD. Considering it'll probably be cheaper in the US...let's say $1000....not bad really for a 20" with LED backlights, especially with no competition. But more expensive than I was expecting.

btw.. how does the Dell 2007WFP compare to the NEC 20WMGX2 ??
is the price difference worth it (here 375? and 600?)

IMO, yes. It's better in every category except scaling.

 

[lepump]

On this page it lists 160,000 JPY. That's $1,370.80 USD. Considering it'll probably be cheaper in the US...let's say $1000....not bad really for a 20" with LED backlights, especially with no competition. But more expensive than I was expecting.

That's what I thought when I read it. But why does it say "Price: Open price" and Engadget says "Unfortunately, there's no word on price"?
..Maybe they updated the page since they posted the story.

Hmmm.. Wonder how much ?/$ for the 24'' model ? (the one i really want, but probably can't afford/buy a 40'' TV instead)

*edit*
Incase some of you haven't seen the highQ video..
http://cebitvideo.com/?p=15

 

[talgtapp]

Thanx for the replies xtknight and jbbrown!

"Most PVAs are 6-bit. Sorry, I don't know of any IPSs or S-PVAs under $300 either, not even 15" ones."
Pretty much what I expected :-(

I have seen the ViewSonic VX2025wm recommended for graphic work over at prad.de, it has a P-MVA panel. I just might be able to afford that one.
Is it good enough, or should I wait?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: lepump

On this page it lists 160,000 JPY. That's $1,370.80 USD. Considering it'll probably be cheaper in the US...let's say $1000....not bad really for a 20" with LED backlights, especially with no competition. But more expensive than I was expecting.

That's what I thought when I read it. But why does it say "Price: Open price" and Engadget says "Unfortunately, there's no word on price"?
..Maybe they updated the page since they posted the story.

Hmmm.. Wonder how much ?/$ for the 24'' model ? (the one i really want, but probably can't afford/buy a 40'' TV instead)

*edit*
Incase some of you haven't seen the highQ video..
http://cebitvideo.com/?p=15

Sweet video. How am I missing this stuff? I need to get myself to IFA, CeBit, or FPD Taiwan some day. There just isn't that much exposure of all these conventions (at least not in the Displays sector).

My guess is: 24" model won't retail for under $2000.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: talgtapp
Thanx for the replies xtknight and jbbrown!

"Most PVAs are 6-bit. Sorry, I don't know of any IPSs or S-PVAs under $300 either, not even 15" ones."
Pretty much what I expected :-(

I have seen the ViewSonic VX2025wm recommended for graphic work over at prad.de, it has a P-MVA panel. I just might be able to afford that one.
Is it good enough, or should I wait?

That's as good as you're gonna get. There is the NEC LCD1970NX that uses S-IPS and costs ~$360 but I'ven't heard a thing about it. This review doesn't make it look that thrilling: http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/nec1970nx/index.html

I don't believe 8-bit super CCFL/LED monitors will be very cheap if that's what you mean by wait. The next cheapest good photo editing monitor I know of is the Dell 2007WFP, which retails for $373.15 off Dell.com. If you could somehow afford that, you'd be much happier. Is price really that important? You just don't want to go cheap if you're talking about photo editing. For gaming, cheap ones are the fastest so it's not an issue, but that's not the case for photo editing.

 

[Dethfrumbelo]

I had a look at some LCDs today and the best one of the bunch was the 215TW, and it was ok - no 20WMGX2 though. The VX2025 looked like garbage. They had some Hanns-Gs which looked horrible... terrible viewing angles, washed out, bad color, etc. The TNs look flat out bad to me and I can't see being pleased using one on a daily basis.

Then I walked by a Sony Vaio and it looked really crisp and more "CRT-like" only with better colors and contrast than most CRTs. I think the Xbrite coating makes a big difference... I guess the Opticlear would achieve the same effect.

I ended up getting a used 19" Hitachi CRT for $20 while I wait to see what transpires in LCD land - actually it has pretty good geometry and convergence, sharp even at the corners. I think I would only buy an LCD with Opticlear/Xbrite at this point, the ones without just can't compete. Maybe in 2-3 months we'll start seeing the super CCFLs in NEC monitors. For some reason, Samsung refuses to use the glossy coating, which really makes me not too interested in their LCDs.

 

[johnnyMon]

For me, the glossy screen coatings make graphics look phenomenal, but cause too much reflection (of lights, windows, etc.) for easy reading of text.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: lepump
Sometimes this thread feels like a NEC 20WMGX2 commercial

That's because people who are buying them are trickeling in. You can't be anything else but a virtual shill after owning one it's best LCD out period. Trust someone whos owned or used 12+, competition is none.

Maybe xtKnight is a plant.

Naw, He's da man.

The LCD market can be very confusing since they all are liars about thier specs - Lums, contrast, viewing angles, response times are all lies proven in testing by sites such as toms, xbit, behardware etc..- Some lie more than others, (S******G) They can put any numbers they want out there. For truth, it's best to check out all reviews yourself or be lucky enough to have a dedicated student like XKNIGHT do it for you and hand you the low down.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: johnnyMon
For me, the glossy screen coatings make graphics look phenomenal, but cause too much reflection (of lights, windows, etc.) for easy reading of text.

Yeah I don't know why some reviewers hate the gloss.. Behardware goes on and on about how crappy NEC's glossy screen is... every review they mention it even if NEC is not featured in that review.. they must be in a warehouse or office building with a thousand fluorescent blubs above thier head because franky in a home office enviroment you don't even notice it except how superior it makes the image look. My laptop has it too and it looks great even though it's TN technology compared to other laptops. I think all monitors should have xbrite/opticlear.

 

[kreidel]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: johnnyMon
For me, the glossy screen coatings make graphics look phenomenal, but cause too much reflection (of lights, windows, etc.) for easy reading of text.

I think all monitors should have xbrite/opticlear.

I am thankful all monitors are not glossy! Where my desk is in my home a glossy screen is worthless.

 

[talgtapp]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: talgtapp
Thanx for the replies xtknight and jbbrown!

"Most PVAs are 6-bit. Sorry, I don't know of any IPSs or S-PVAs under $300 either, not even 15" ones."
Pretty much what I expected :-(

I have seen the ViewSonic VX2025wm recommended for graphic work over at prad.de, it has a P-MVA panel. I just might be able to afford that one.
Is it good enough, or should I wait?

That's as good as you're gonna get. There is the NEC LCD1970NX that uses S-IPS and costs ~$360 but I'ven't heard a thing about it. This review doesn't make it look that thrilling: http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/nec1970nx/index.html

I don't believe 8-bit super CCFL/LED monitors will be very cheap if that's what you mean by wait. The next cheapest good photo editing monitor I know of is the Dell 2007WFP, which retails for $373.15 off Dell.com. If you could somehow afford that, you'd be much happier. Is price really that important? You just don't want to go cheap if you're talking about photo editing. For gaming, cheap ones are the fastest so it's not an issue, but that's not the case for photo editing.

Right now my economy is ****** so I really can't afford anything, within a month I should be able to afford a 300$ monitor. But its pointless spending that for something I won?t be happy with. In a couple of months I might have 500$ to spend and in 4 months time I know I will.

The new CCFL/LED should drive down the prices for S-IPS and S-PVA monitors, don't you think?

 

[jbbrown]

Originally posted by: xtknight

I don't believe 8-bit super CCFL/LED monitors will be very cheap if that's what you mean by wait. The next cheapest good photo editing monitor I know of is the Dell 2007WFP, which retails for $373.15 off Dell.com. If you could somehow afford that, you'd be much happier. Is price really that important? You just don't want to go cheap if you're talking about photo editing. For gaming, cheap ones are the fastest so it's not an issue, but that's not the case for photo editing.

Originally posted by: talgtapp

The new CCFL/LED should drive down the prices for S-IPS and S-PVA monitors, don't you think?

What exactly is this CCFL/LED technology? I have heard a little talk of a better backlight coming to the market, but I don't really know much about it.

I think I'm just going to wait a few months to get a good S-IPS or S-PVA monitor for under $300.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
I had a look at some LCDs today and the best one of the bunch was the 215TW, and it was ok - no 20WMGX2 though.

The VX2025 looked like garbage.

Finally someone agrees with me. You're not kidding. It probably looks just like all the other ViewSonics: pale. The color mapping on them is pretty bad and I can't see myself recommending one until they fix it. I'd probably still recommend it over a 6-bit TN for strictly graphics work because of the 8-bit and high contrast but even that's debateable. If they don't use a calibrator it's not going to look very good at all. Now I know I'm not crazy. I put too much faith in user reviews.

They had some Hanns-Gs which looked horrible... terrible viewing angles, washed out, bad color, etc. The TNs look flat out bad to me and I can't see being pleased using one on a daily basis.

I was afraid of that. It's amazing how many good reviews they've gotten on Newegg though.

Then I walked by a Sony Vaio and it looked really crisp and more "CRT-like" only with better colors and contrast than most CRTs. I think the Xbrite coating makes a big difference... I guess the Opticlear would achieve the same effect.

Yeah, the NEC would definitely impress you. It's nothing like the paled/washed out stuff. It's like an AG CRT with a slightly higher black level and much higher brightness. Maybe a slight loss of saturation in the darker tones compared to CRTs but it's the best LCD I've seen. It has the most uniform backlight ever (imagine a big, very dark gray poster) so that makes the black level less of a deal. Combine that with the high contrast and black really looks just as black, except when you turn off the lights. You can see some slight illumination.

I ended up getting a used 19" Hitachi CRT for $20 while I wait to see what transpires in LCD land - actually it has pretty good geometry and convergence, sharp even at the corners. I think I would only buy an LCD with Opticlear/Xbrite at this point, the ones without just can't compete. Maybe in 2-3 months we'll start seeing the super CCFLs in NEC monitors. For some reason, Samsung refuses to use the glossy coating, which really makes me not too interested in their LCDs.

I'm tired of the pale monitors just like you are. They need to put out higher-quality stuff. Not backlight seepy inkblot yuckiness. Those give LCDs a bad name, and perhaps appropriately because they are so abundant on the market. There's no reason they have to be that way because other LCDs look just fine and don't have those problems. I'm convinced that some TNs like the Samsung 940BF and LG L204WT are great for general usage or gaming though. I agree Samsung needs to get the glossy coating. Their S-PVAs are pretty good. Ideally I would only recommend S-PVA and S-IPS screens, but for under 20" or under $350, that's simply impossible. So I'm trying to convince people to spend a little more and get a great screen vs. being stuck with something that they're itching to upgrade again. All I can say is thank god for Dell. The S-IPS 2007WFP at $375 is a great deal. The next time I see a Core Duo 2 system paired with some $150 LCD I'm going to cry.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: talgtapp
Right now my economy is ****** so I really can't afford anything, within a month I should be able to afford a 300$ monitor. But its pointless spending that for something I won?t be happy with. In a couple of months I might have 500$ to spend and in 4 months time I know I will.

Ahh, ok. Well I can't stress this enough: wait. In 4 months a $500 monitor will be amazing.

The new CCFL/LED should drive down the prices for S-IPS and S-PVA monitors, don't you think?

I definitely think it should. Maybe some good NEC S-IPS LCDs will retail for $500 by then.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: jbbrown
What exactly is this CCFL/LED technology? I have heard a little talk of a better backlight coming to the market, but I don't really know much about it.

The new CCFLs (LCD backlights) will broaden the color gamut, which means they can display a wider range of color. Previously undisplayable colors are now paintable. The LED backlights will do the same thing, except the range will be even wider, and the screen will be more uniform.

I think I'm just going to wait a few months to get a good S-IPS or S-PVA monitor for under $300.

Sounds good to me. The new backlights should drive down the cost of things. It may be a while until they reach $300. I'm not sure though.

 

[Kung Foo]

Hi. I'm a newbie on this forum. Great to see that such a thread is here, and people are actively participating

I'm looking for my first LCD, and thought that it should be a rather pretty nice one straight from the beginning.
Criterias are: 20-21" widescreen, quick enough, and good colors. I do some image editing, but the basic use is surfing, movies and such. I game a bit, but not much. The monitor should be "a good all-rounder". Budget is around 300-400?. I live in North Europe, so the availability of high-end monitors is not that good.

I was wondering about the new LG TN panels. I have the LG L204WT-SF in mind, which is now available here for 329?.
As I understand, the color quality of TN panels are generally not that good as with S-IPS.
There are however a few user comments on the net about the good colors on it, e.g. good blacks.
But how would you rate the LG's new panel?

So is the LG's panel a good all-rounder, or should I still concider an S-IPS panel?
S-IPS panels tend to cost much more here (e.g. Dell 2007WFP 628?, and Samsung SyncMaster 215TW 630?)!

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Kung Foo

Hi. I'm a newbie on this forum. Great to see that such a thread is here, and people are actively participating

Welcome.

I'm looking for my first LCD, and thought that it should be a rather pretty nice one straight from the beginning.
Criterias are: 20-21" widescreen, quick enough, and good colors. I do some image editing, but the basic use is surfing, movies and such. I game a bit, but not much. The monitor should be "a good all-rounder". Budget is around 300-400?. I live in North Europe, so the availability of high-end monitors is not that good.

I was wondering about the new LG TN panels. I have the LG L204WT-SF in mind, which is now available here for 329?.
As I understand, the color quality of TN panels are generally not that good as with S-IPS.
There are however a few user comments on the net about the good colors on it, e.g. good blacks.
But how would you rate the LG's new panel?

So is the LG's panel a good all-rounder, or should I still concider an S-IPS panel?
S-IPS panels tend to cost much more here (e.g. Dell 2007WFP 628?, and Samsung SyncMaster 215TW 630?)!

Yeah, those prices are ridiculous. I say go with the LG L204WT-SF (it's the best TN panel) and make your next purchase one of the super CCFL/LED backlight LCDs. Out of curiosity how much does the NEC LCD20WGX2 retail for over there? If you're not doing serious photo work it's not worth it to spend almost twice as much. Maybe you can get it shipped from somewhere else a lot cheaper?

 

[Kung Foo]

The NEC MultiSync 20WMGX2 seems to cost here about 600?, AND the availability is really poor So that's out of the question. Too bad.

It might be possible to get e.g. a Samsung 215TW cheaper (around 550?) from web shops, but I'd not rather do that. I like to have the service close if there's any hw problems (also, the zero dead pixel policy is easy to get locally).

Dell seems to only ship here online selling from it's own web site, so they do not propably want to ship from a different country. They do however have those sales (-25%) here too, but never at least below 450?.

So, the question is, that is the image quality of e.g. Dell 2007WFP, Samsung 215TW or NEC 20WMGX2 or other good panels so much better, that it would be worth spending something like 150-250? more?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Kung Foo
The NEC MultiSync 20WMGX2 seems to cost here about 600?, AND the availability is really poor So that's out of the question. Too bad.

It might be possible to get e.g. a Samsung 215TW cheaper (around 550?) from web shops, but I'd not rather do that. I like to have the service close if there's any hw problems (also, the zero dead pixel policy is easy to get locally).

Dell seems to only ship here online selling from it's own web site, so they do not propably want to ship from a different country. They do however have those sales (-25%) here too, but never at least below 450?.

So, the question is, that is the image quality of e.g. Dell 2007WFP, Samsung 215TW or NEC 20WMGX2 or other good panels so much better, that it would be worth spending something like 150-250? more?

Well, for the NEC it may very well be. It looks like the cheapest of the high end if you can get ahold of it. The NEC is superior to the Dell and Samsung.

 

[Kung Foo]

Thanks xtknight.
I guess I have no real choices (I'm really not willing to put 600? on a screen), so I'll propably give the LG 204 a try
Any further thoughts about the LG?
I've seen two or so user reviews about it, but if you've got more info on it, I'd really appreciate it.

 

[lepump]

xtknight: I'd just like to know if you disagree on anything else in these reviews except for image quality..
(Samsung 215TW vs NEC 20WMGX2)
(are we really supposed to trust a page even if it's called trusted? )
http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?art=2990
http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?art=3081

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Kung Foo
Thanks xtknight.
I guess I have no real choices (I'm really not willing to put 600? on a screen), so I'll propably give the LG 204 a try
Any further thoughts about the LG?
I've seen two or so user reviews about it, but if you've got more info on it, I'd really appreciate it.

I've consistently heard that it has a great black level and really good uniformity. LGs tend to have good color gamma too. You might even be lucky and get a L204 with a S-IPS panel (those are going around in various countries). I heard the TN panel is some odd type that doesn't fade to black when looked at from below (and I've seen pictures proving it). So maybe when you get it you could confirm whether it fades to black when looking at a really low vertical angle.

 

[lepump]

I just had looksee at the LG 204 myself..
Have always been planning on NOT bying TN.
But for the price I too might end up trying it..
(any info/links on the LG L204WT-SF would be appreciated)

Kung Foo..Let us know what you think of it if you get one ..please

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: lepump
I'd just like to know if you diisagree on anything else in these reviews except for image quality..
(are we really supposed to trust a page even if it's called trusted? )
http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?art=2990
http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?art=3081

Well, the LCD20WGX2 (non-US model that they reviewed) lacks a lot of the features the US model (20WMGX2) has. Among those features are: HDCP, component in, S-Video in, composite in, audio in, and a TV tuner. They'd probably be singing a different tune if they tried the 20WMGX2, but in the US it is more expensive than the 215TW by a bit. To my knowledge both monitors are equal in scaling options but it's really hard for me to know since I have no 215TW to test.

They seem to solely rely on gradients to test image quality. What about saturation in dark areas or at low brightness? Viewing at a perpendicular angle? This is where S-IPS panels shine, and why they're used in photo editing monitors. The response time is no contest, and the OptiClear coating is amazing. The only flaw I can see in the NEC is the very slight banding (even in native). I can see about six bands ("kinks") of the same color across the whole gradient but that's very hard to notice. Color tracking is extremely good.

I don't like their rating system. They gave the BenQ FP241W all 10/10. They rate it higher than both the Samsung and NEC for image quality (I'm quite sure the Samsung and NEC are higher quality just due to the panel technology). Is that supposed to mean every other monitor they test now and will test in the future is inferior? They also claim the 205BW is 8-bit. I don't really trust them. Sites I trust are www.behardware.com, www.tomshardware.com, www.xbitlabs.com, flatpanels.dk. Sometimes they make odd conclusions but at least they include lots of data so we can make our own conclusions. I find it hard to trust reviews without any data. Many users don't have devices so if they can't provide data that's fine, but any hardware site that claims to be reputable should.

I'll be getting a LaCie Blue Eye 2 calibrator soon so I should be able to provide some data.