LCD Buyer's Guide

[daslog]

After searching the internet for a week, I came across Xtnight?s name in the arstechica forum as the subject matter expert. Apparantly, you are becoming famous!! Here is what I?m looking to do:

1) Watch HDTV and be able to play widescreen video games (hardcore gamer), surf the new, etc at the same time.
2) When not watching HDTV, I want to be able to use both monitors in a dual monitor setup.
3) Both Monitors need to be Widescreen.
4) The HDTV source will probably be a cable box provided by the cable company.


Restrictions:
1) Budget = $1500.00 Firm, unless I want to get divorced
2) If I need a new Video Card, it comes out of the Budget.
3) Space is not an issue


I previously considered using a 37? Westinghouse, but that seems a bit pricey and I would lose dual monitors. The monitors can be different models, but I?m not sure if that would make sense as they would be side by side.

Reading over your guide, I was thinking maybe 2 of the 20.1"w: NEC MultiSync 20WMGX2, 1680x1050 (16:10). Thoughts? What am I looking at for a Video card to power these?

Let me know what you think and I appreciate the help!!

 

[im2good4u]

im considering on getting a 19" wide but after seeing it, it seems a little bit small compared to my 17" CRT.. now is there an LCD you guys can recommend with 19-20" 4:3 ratio?

 

[akatatanadtech]

Hi,

Thanks for a really great Guide.

I am in India and the high end monitors that you mention above don't seem to be available here.

If possible, please can you look at the information for Samsung Syncmaster 730MP( at http://www.samsung.com/in/products/monitors/index.asp or maybe others available here in India ) and say if it is a reasonable montior. My use will be mostly office work, some TV and gaming, but most importantly it should last me for at least 3 years. The 730MP is also quite expensive here.

Thanks for any help/guidance you can give.

Best regards.

 

[parker0522]

What about the Samsung® 19" LCD Flat-Panel Widescreen 931BW. This would just be for general home use w/ some video playback. This is one for the black friday deals at best buy. The have it listed a reg. $250 w/ an instant saving of $120 to make it $230. Is this a good buy?

 

[BassBomb]

How bad is the input lag on Dell 2407 or Samsung 215TW?

Are there any good 8-bit 1600x1200 monitors around?

I am looking to purchase a good monitor, something 8 bit. I love the idea of the NEC but the price kills me

 

[Pugnate]

Hey is the ViewSonic VA1912wb any good? I don't have many choices and this is one of them. I want a multipurpose monitor, though I watch a lot of movies and play games rabidly.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: daslog
After searching the internet for a week, I came across Xtnight?s name in the arstechica forum as the subject matter expert. Apparantly, you are becoming famous!! Here is what I?m looking to do:

Soon enough the paparazzi will be outside my house...I hope not.

1) Watch HDTV and be able to play widescreen video games (hardcore gamer), surf the new, etc at the same time.
2) When not watching HDTV, I want to be able to use both monitors in a dual monitor setup.
3) Both Monitors need to be Widescreen.
4) The HDTV source will probably be a cable box provided by the cable company.


Restrictions:
1) Budget = $1500.00 Firm, unless I want to get divorced
2) If I need a new Video Card, it comes out of the Budget.
3) Space is not an issue

I previously considered using a 37? Westinghouse, but that seems a bit pricey and I would lose dual monitors. The monitors can be different models, but I?m not sure if that would make sense as they would be side by side.

Reading over your guide, I was thinking maybe 2 of the 20.1"w: NEC MultiSync 20WMGX2, 1680x1050 (16:10). Thoughts? What am I looking at for a Video card to power these?

Let me know what you think and I appreciate the help!!

I think two NEC 20WMGX2s sounds great. 1500-($610*2) = <$280 to spend on a video card. I don't know if any G80 (GF8800) derivatives worth buying will be out for <$300. I don't keep up on video cards like I used to. A GeForce 7800GT powers the 20WMGX2 fairly decently. That's what I have now, but I'm planning on upgrading to the GF8800 because performance still isn't up to my expectations at 1680x1050 with AA/VSync and what not.

The HDTV cable box will have to have either: DVI, VGA, component, S-Video, composite, RF out for you to hook it up. Preferably VGA or component so that you can hook your PC to DVI and the HDTV to VGA or component. (Note the TV tuner in the NEC 20WMGX2 is analog. It can not hook on to an HDTV stream.) That's not a problem if you hook it up with one of the above, but I just wanted to make sure you knew the NEC 20WMGX2 wasn't an HDTV alone. And you need somewhere to hook sound up to. I hook it up to my Line-In on the sound card, but you can use digital audio if you have Coax/Optical SPDIF In. (If applicable) you will need an adapter to convert the composite/analog audio stereo connectors into a mini-plug (hope I got those terms right) so you can hook it up to your sound card.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: parker0522
What about the Samsung® 19" LCD Flat-Panel Widescreen 931BW. This would just be for general home use w/ some video playback. This is one for the black friday deals at best buy. The have it listed a reg. $250 w/ an instant saving of $120 to make it $230. Is this a good buy?

Well, it's better (has more vibrant colors) than the 940BW, but that's about all I know about it. Do you mean it's $130 after rebate or is the regular price $350?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: cryptonomicon
One thing i'd love to know:

Is the the supposed image/color quality loss from using a 6-bit TN panel like the benq93x worth the latency advantage for a semi-pro gamer, compared to a nice new (slightly slower) S-IPS panel like the NEC~mxw20gx with better color quality? Or... is that too much of a "per-person" question :S

I think 90% of gamers would prefer the NEC. It's really only 4 ms slower (10 ms response time) than the Samsung 940BF at max. Input lag may be a tad more as well, but that could go either way (940BF having more input lag or NEC having more input lag, I don't know).

Originally posted by: im2good4u
im considering on getting a 19" wide but after seeing it, it seems a little bit small compared to my 17" CRT.. now is there an LCD you guys can recommend with 19-20" 4:3 ratio?

You can read the OP for some suggestions.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: akatatanadtech
Hi,

Thanks for a really great Guide.

I am in India and the high end monitors that you mention above don't seem to be available here.

If possible, please can you look at the information for Samsung Syncmaster 730MP( at http://www.samsung.com/in/products/monitors/index.asp or maybe others available here in India ) and say if it is a reasonable montior. My use will be mostly office work, some TV and gaming, but most importantly it should last me for at least 3 years. The 730MP is also quite expensive here.

Thanks for any help/guidance you can give.

Best regards.

The 730MP will be your only option if you want to watch TV on it. I don't know of any other affordable LCD that includes a TV tuner that I'd be comfortable recommending. The 770P is great but it doesn't have a TV tuner.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: BassBomb
How bad is the input lag on Dell 2407 or Samsung 215TW?

About 3 frames ((1000/60)*3) = 50ms on the Samsung 215TW, and roughly 2 frames = 32ms on the Dell 2407WFP. That does not include response time. The 215TW has to be the monitor most often returned due to the problem.

Are there any good 8-bit 1600x1200 monitors around?

I am looking to purchase a good monitor, something 8 bit. I love the idea of the NEC but the price kills me

The HP LP2065, NEC LCD2070NX, and Dell 2007FP are decent and are all 8-bit. For what purpose? Gaming? They will still be fairly competent in gaming, but not as good as the NEC 20WMGX2.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Pugnate
Hey is the ViewSonic VA1912wb any good? I don't have many choices and this is one of them. I want a multipurpose monitor, though I watch a lot of movies and play games rabidly.

I think you'd rather have the ViewSonic VX922. I don't know much at all about the VA1912wb but I prefer 5:4 aspect at 19". The VX922 is known to be among the best for gaming and I doubt the VA1912wb is any better for movies.

 

[BassBomb]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: BassBomb
How bad is the input lag on Dell 2407 or Samsung 215TW?

About 3 frames ((1000/60)*3) = 50ms on the Samsung 215TW, and roughly 2 frames = 32ms on the Dell 2407WFP. That does not include response time. The 215TW has to be the monitor most often returned due to the problem.

Are there any good 8-bit 1600x1200 monitors around?

I am looking to purchase a good monitor, something 8 bit. I love the idea of the NEC but the price kills me

The HP L2065, NEC LCD2070NX, and Dell 2007FP are decent and are all 8-bit. For what purpose? Gaming? They will still be fairly competent in gaming, but not as good as the NEC 20WMGX2.

Gaming mostly. I was interested in 8 bit due to the color reproduction.
As long as the ghosting is on par (or better) than my current setup it should be great (915N - 8ms 700:1 300brightness TN Panel)

I am in the market for 20~24" panel wide screen or not

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: BassBomb
Gaming mostly. I was interested in 8 bit due to the color reproduction.
As long as the ghosting is on par (or better) than my current setup it should be great (915N - 8ms 700:1 300brightness TN Panel)

I am in the market for 20~24" panel wide screen or not

It's hard to beat a TN for gaming but I think you'll do just fine with the HP LP2065. When you say 24" were you hoping to get a 24" under the price of the 20WMGX2?

 

[im2good4u]

OP??

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: im2good4u
OP??

Original post (post, the first one on the first page) or original poster (member). Just wondering since you asked for recommendations on 19-20" LCDs. Do the ones in the OP not suit you for some reason or do you want more specific advice? I need to know what you do on your PC (e.g. game, movies, etc).

 

[Luchesar Iliev]

Hi, guys,

Since this topic is about choosing an LCD, and I'm wondering now whether I've made the wrong choice, I hope this is the right place to share my problem and seek for advice...

I recently bought a NEC SpectraView 1990 to help me in processing my photos, after being disappointed with the quality of various low-budget monitors. I did intentionally choose the SpectraView over the "plain" 1990SXi, besides for the other special features (like hardware calibration), also expecting to have a higher quality product (returning a bad sample is frequently problematic in my country).

My first impressions with the screen backlighting uniformity however are not at all good. All settings standard, on a completely black screen there is light "leaking" from the edges, especially in some places. While this wouldn't be a problem if it was visible only on a completely blank screen, it is pronounced to a degree where it becomes distracting when, say, watching a movie with enough dark scenes in it.

Better to see than to hear explanations, so here's a photo.

The screen is not that bright, nor it's that blueish in reality. The bleeding (in white) can be seen at the left edge, and even more pronounced -- at the upper part of the right edge. The two brighter blue areas in the upper left and lower right are not backlighting leakage, but rather inconsistencies of the type, caused by different viewing angles. It's still strange why they appear as well, since the photo was made from 2-3 meters away.

What troubles me most, as I said in the beginnig, is whether this is a normal thing to expect from such kind of monitor (costing here about $1100), or should I ask for replacement instead (even though it might be refused)? After all, the cheap Samsung on my work desk looks much better, at least when speaking about uniformity. On the other hand though, there's also the nonnegligible risk of getting a sample even worse than the current one (and I cannot choose from different samples, so it's quite like a lottery).

I guess these things are difficult to judge, since each pair of eyes out there is different, and what is uniform for someone might be completely unacceptable for someone else. Anyway though, any advice or comments will be much appreciated.

Many thanks in advance! Oh, and by the way, excellent guide on the first page!

Best regards,
Luchesar

 

[amking]

i'd just like to make a random comment here: going back to a standard aspect crt after using a 20 inch ws lcd for almost a month really blows - i can't believe how awkward the lower rez square feels

i am in the process of returning a 2007wfp and had to bust out my old 19" crt for a bit (while i decide if i am going to pony up for the nec 20wmgx2) ....god this sucks. i cant believe how washed out this thing is. lol~

 

[a123456]

By the way, the NEC 20WMGX2 can be found for $480. It looks like a pretty good deal, but I think you have to be a member and that costs a little bit of money and hassle. Still, it's lower than most places.

http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?catg=535&item=328525&prDeTab=1#A

 

[BassBomb]

Originally posted by: a123456
By the way, the NEC 20WMGX2 can be found for $480. It looks like a pretty good deal, but I think you have to be a member and that costs a little bit of money and hassle. Still, it's lower than most places.

http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?catg=535&item=328525&prDeTab=1#A

Best i have found in canada is a good 700$ CND

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Luchesar Iliev
Hi, guys,

Since this topic is about choosing an LCD, and I'm wondering now whether I've made the wrong choice, I hope this is the right place to share my problem and seek for advice...

I recently bought a NEC SpectraView 1990 to help me in processing my photos, after being disappointed with the quality of various low-budget monitors. I did intentionally choose the SpectraView over the "plain" 1990SXi, besides for the other special features (like hardware calibration), also expecting to have a higher quality product (returning a bad sample is frequently problematic in my country).

My first impressions with the screen backlighting uniformity however are not at all good. All settings standard, on a completely black screen there is light "leaking" from the edges, especially in some places. While this wouldn't be a problem if it was visible only on a completely blank screen, it is pronounced to a degree where it becomes distracting when, say, watching a movie with enough dark scenes in it.

Better to see than to hear explanations, so here's a photo.

The screen is not that bright, nor it's that blueish in reality. The bleeding (in white) can be seen at the left edge, and even more pronounced -- at the upper part of the right edge. The two brighter blue areas in the upper left and lower right are not backlighting leakage, but rather inconsistencies of the type, caused by different viewing angles. It's still strange why they appear as well, since the photo was made from 2-3 meters away.

What troubles me most, as I said in the beginnig, is whether this is a normal thing to expect from such kind of monitor (costing here about $1100), or should I ask for replacement instead (even though it might be refused)? After all, the cheap Samsung on my work desk looks much better, at least when speaking about uniformity. On the other hand though, there's also the nonnegligible risk of getting a sample even worse than the current one (and I cannot choose from different samples, so it's quite like a lottery).

I guess these things are difficult to judge, since each pair of eyes out there is different, and what is uniform for someone might be completely unacceptable for someone else. Anyway though, any advice or comments will be much appreciated.

Many thanks in advance! Oh, and by the way, excellent guide on the first page!

Best regards,
Luchesar

Yeah, unfortunately it's not high-end enough to use an LED backlight (more uniform) but it's high-end enough to use an IPS panel (and to cost an arm and a leg).

If you say your cheap Samsung is better though then I would have to expect much better out of an expensive NEC. It is probably a particularly bad unit. Still, I can't say for sure. Even the rated black level (270/600=0.45) doesn't break any records. The black level, as measured by X-Bit, is pretty poor.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/19inch-4_17.html

(Though X-Bit seems to report higher black levels than most.) Just because it has a high black level doesn't mean it has to be ununiform though.

You probably made as good a choice as you could for 19"/photo editing. When it comes to that, the first thing that comes to mind is the high-end NECs. You may have better luck with the LaCie 319, I'm not really sure. Personally I would avoid all 19" LCDs for photo editing. 20"+ LCDs have much better properties.

What do you have your brightness/contrast settings set to though? Here are mine on the NEC 20WMGX2 (an S-IPS panel as well):

Brightness: 5.4%
Contrast: 97.0%

I have the black level at an extremely low level and contrast extremely high. This seems to be the best for S-IPS. I get excellent image accuracy with this (all colors dE94<0.75). All I see is a black screen except for small amounts (<2 mm) of gray leaking at the sides (but not at all blue) in some places. When you view from different angles, black does turn quite purple (this is just a characteristic of S-IPS).

Straight on though, wow, black is fairly black. No, it is not 0 nits or pitch black. 0.20 nits rather, but pretty decent. Even at 100% brightness I don't have many problems with uniformity. This NEC cost less much than the 1990 so I'm very surprised that it has better uniformity. Obviously NEC is capable of making a great, uniform screen like the 20WGX2 so I don't see why they don't do the same for their 19" models. It doesn't have 12-bit gamma processing or hardware calibration support though. But, software calibrated, it looks great at those settings. How is the uniformity on your screen at 100% contrast and 0% brightness? If I'm right the 1990 has a 'black level' option too to control the backlight, or no? Remember, at wild settings like those you will need to make gamma adjustments to get accurate colors, but the wild settings+calibration are the best for these screens.

 

[Pugnate]

Thanks for the response. I am probably going to purchase the VX922 tomorrow. I am still wondering about the VX2025WM, why have they not fixed the DVI problems yet? Are they stupid?

 

[Luchesar Iliev]

xtknight

Well, the main reason I chose that particular NEC was the opinion of Karl Lang (which you might be acquainted with; if not, here's a link) He actually recommended the 1980SXi as "the great bargain price performance wise", but since the 80-ies series is now superseeded by the 90-ies, I decided upon 1990SXi. Then I realised that the European 1990SXi doesn't allow hardware calibration (a marketing decision of NEC) and moved my attention towards the SpectraView. Ultimately, I decided that it should be the better choice anyway, the SpectraViews being hand-picked from the bunch of 1990SXi-s (at least they claim to do so). Well, either they don't hand-pick very carefully, or it's just that the 1990SXi general quality is very low.

On the 1990SXi (and the SpectraView respectively) going beyond 50% in contrast produces very distinct color loss and "burning" in the light shades. I haven't found lowering the contrast much usefull too. The default ~50% seem to be the best setting. As for the brightness, I haven't yet found the best setting. But I haven't yet calibrated the monitor too.

The default black level is once again 50%. I don't really see any perceivable difference when going lower. Going up indeed makes the backlight ununiformity to dissapear, but that's just because the black becomes the color of the bleeding: dark grey, which of course is completely unacceptable. The blueish tint is mostly because of the camera. It does indeed have slight tint to the eye as well, but nothing to be worried about, except perhaps for those slightly ligher areas in the upper left and lower right.

I did, BTW, get a colorimeter as well (it's the NEC rebranded Gretag Macbeth's Eye One Display 2), but I haven't yet learned how to use it. I was much interested in finding a simple program that would just show the parameters of the light, captured by the colorimeter, but I couldn't find such. I have to inspect more carefully the included SpectraView Profiler software, I guess.

The uniformity doesn't really change much with different brightness and contrast combinations. It is, of course, less visible with the brightness at 0%, but then the screen becomes too dull as well. As for "black level" controling the backlight, I'm not sure. It doesn't seem to do this, at least to me. Rather, it looks like setting the brightness of the pixels designated to be "black". Just as I said, bumping it up renders the black pixels grey.

I'm just about to call the dealer for replacement, and I'll post the results later. Thanks very much for your most interesting comments. I especially appreciated the link to the X-Bit's tests.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Luchesar Iliev
On the 1990SXi (and the SpectraView respectively) going beyond 50% in contrast produces very distinct color loss and "burning" in the light shades. I haven't found lowering the contrast much usefull too. The default ~50% seem to be the best setting. As for the brightness, I haven't yet found the best setting. But I haven't yet calibrated the monitor too.

The burning won't happen if the brightness is really low (at least it doesn't on the LCDs I have). But, yes, the higher your contrast, the more gamma adjustment that is required.

I did, BTW, get a colorimeter as well (it's the NEC rebranded Gretag Macbeth's Eye One Display 2), but I haven't yet learned how to use it. I was much interested in finding a simple program that would just show the parameters of the light, captured by the colorimeter, but I couldn't find such. I have to inspect more carefully the included SpectraView Profiler software, I guess.

basICColor works great with my EOD 2.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Pugnate
Thanks for the response. I am probably going to purchase the VX922 tomorrow. I am still wondering about the VX2025WM, why have they not fixed the DVI problems yet? Are they stupid?

I'm wondering the same thing...

-----------------------------------------------------------

I got a reply from X-Bit Labs (Oleg Artamonov) on the Samsung 215TW input lag issue. Here it is. Remember these are his words not mine.

Yes, 215TW has a lag of 3 frames. I didn't mention this in the article, but I'll discuss this problem in one of the upcoming articles. The point is that 3 frames lag, 50 ms, is VERY little, almost negligible, it can be noticeable only in some situations in first person shooters. It's absolutely impossible to see such lag on the desktop, typical human reaction on simple events (there's generally accepted therm for this type of reaction in russian but I don't know for sure how it's called in english: time between simple event like flash of light and muscle contraction) is about 200...250 ms, 4...5 times larger than monitor's lag, so 50 ms is really a very little.

In most cases when users believe they see this lag it's just an ordinary auto-suggestion: first they saw thread in forum, read that their monitor has a lag than believe that they really see that lag. Many users switch to LCD from their old CRT monitor, but when you do this, almost all changes: screen size, resolution, response time, even brightness and contrast... Many people don't like simple explanations like "you've just changed your desktop from 1024x768 on 17" CRT to 1680x1050 on 21" LCD, now adjust your mouse speed and acceleration!", they want more complex, scientific-like explanations. I've seen a lot of forum threads with discussions about lag, backlight flicker due to PWM control, matrix flicker due to AC current (liquid crystals degrade when they supplied with DC current, so all LCD panels use AC inside), even about CCFL spectrum and polarization of emitted light! Almost all of them are just attempts to find overcomplicated explanation of simple things.

So I don't think 3 frames lag is a real problem. It can be really seen only in some rare cases. Moreover, even in first-person shooters if someone got used to monitor with lag he will find himself uncomfortable on monitor without lag, because adaptation to specific monitor matters more than this monitor's parameters, that's how our brains work. I don't want to say that monitor's parameters means nothing -- but usually less than most people think.