LCD Buyer's Guide

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: xboxist

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: xboxist
xtknight,

The following is what you said in your article about the 24" BenQ on lcdresource.com:

"It does lack one feature: 1:1 pixel mapping. That means, if you have an ATI card (ATIs don't offer these options) and want to run in centered mode, you're doomed."

Could you explain exactly how this will impact the average user? I'm new to LCDs, and I don't know what centered mode is. My graphics card is an ATI x1900xt. Can I still consider the BenQ, or would it be the worst choice ever?

Thanks again.

If you want to play at lower resolutions on the LCD, you will have to deal with them being scaled. You can't center the smaller resolution into the larger, native resolution (centered mode). Check out the benchmarks for the x1900xt @ 1920x1200 if you want to know how it'll perform on the BenQ. I doubt you'll be happy with the scaling quality of an LCD for gaming.

So let me just make sure I understand this right...

If I use an app or a game that doesn't have a resolution option to fit up to 1920x1200, then the monitor doesn't have a way to "best fit it"? What will it look like?

Correct. You can't just take 1680x1050, for example, and 'make it' 1920x1200. That just doesn't happen. It will either have to be scaled (digitally stretched and middled image quality), or centered (1:1 mode, pixel perfect but black borders).

I can't tell if this is something that will look clearly unusable, or if it's just a minor gripe. Are you really saying that anyone with an ATI card can't reasonably use this monitor? That's a lot of people!

/stabs ATI

In my opinion, any type of digital scaling is clearly unusable. It just looks awful for gaming with the huge jagged and chunky lines, and enabling antialiasing on the source image just makes it worse. For the Windows desktop it may look usable at first but even the slightest discontinuity in the scaling algorithm kills your eyes and makes it unusable. You can't make something out of nothing, which explains why it looks so blurry and jagged. Of course, I don't know exactly how the FP241W's scaling is. Games suffer particularly because of their geometric nature (as in, diagonal lines everywhere).

EnTech PowerStrip apparently has some 'resolution designer' option that allows you to do 1:1 on ATI cards. Other than that, no one with ATI can do 1:1 centering mode. They must either have it stretched by the graphics card or monitor, if the monitor doesn't have 1:1. The ATI 'centered timings' option just sends a low-res image to the monitor, causing it to do whatever with it (stretch, if there's no 1:1 option). NVIDIA actually sends a full res image to the monitor and instead centers the lower res picture inside that full res, and borders it with black borders. That way the monitor doesn't touch it, but it's still centered from the user's point of view.

Edit: I'll have to change my stance on the scaling thing. I just tried 1440x900 on my 1680x1050 LCD using my 7800GT's scaler and I could barely even tell. My experience described above was with using a 1280x1024 LCD at 1024x768 (off-aspect) resolution, and not to mention at a big dot pitch. The smaller the dot pitch, the more bearable scaling will become, and the FP241W has a pretty small dot pitch. I still can't stand the scaling for desktop usage, however, and I have only tried it with a primitive game so far (Tux Racer, yeah, yeah). I'll report my thoughts on the scaling with Wolfenstein in a little while.

 

[niggles]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: niggles

Originally posted by: xtknight

Also... my friend is raving about the 24" BenQ LCD (~$800). What do you know about that one? Thanks!

I recommend it for multimedia. It has some input lag just like the Dell, but so far it's unknown if it's worse or better. Some tests have contradicted each other. What we do know is that color reproduction is far superior to the Dell.

So what does this mean about gaming, would this be a bad choice as a gaming monitor then?

Bad choice overall, but best choice for 24". It doesn't bother most people.

I think I want a 24 inch minimum on the wide screen or I'll feel like I'm losing ground when I move from my 19 inch Hyundai. If I understand this, it really sounds like these aren't ready for prime time gaming them and would only do it in a pinch. I don't mind waiting another couple of years if that's what it takes. I was simply hoping that I'd be able to jump on the downloadable media bandwagon when Vista became available. Thanks very much xtknight, you're a gentleman and a scholar

 

[Howard]

The dark grayscale test page doesn't seem to be working in either Opera or IE. All I get is a set of stair-stepped RGB(x,x,x) text.

 

[imported_blight]

On the topic of native resolutions and gaming, I was wondering how big of a difference there is between 19" LCD widesreens and 20.1" besides the native resolution (1440x900 vs. 1680x1050). I will be using the computer for gaming (world of warcraft mostly), so I was looking at the 20.1"w: LG Flatron L204WT, 1680x1050 (16:10), which is around $330. However, I am seeing alot of 19" monitors with fast response times such as the LG194WT and the Samsung 940BW (and many others) that are $70~$100 cheaper. Is there any real difference besides the native resolution, and is the higher resolution worth the extra money?

I doubt I will be playing games in 1680x1050 since I am still using a Radeon 9800 (I currently play in 1280x1024), and I do not want to spend money upgrading my video card to support higher resolutions on a new widescreen monitor. Sorry if these questions have been answered, I read through the OP but decided I didn't have the patience to sift through 144 pages of responses. TYIA.

Note: I am also looking at the Dell E207WFP and the Samsung 205BW as well. I have always heard Dell Monitors are excellent, and it also seems to be one of the least expensive as well.

 

[BassBomb]

Originally posted by: amking
just an FYI to those of you out there who are considering the 20WMGX2: there is a $50 rebate available to you from nec if you purchase the monitor between 11/20/06 and 12/31/06.

rebate form: http://images10.newegg.com/uploadfilesf...rebate/SH/NEC7MIRsNov20Dec3106kl09.pdf

qualifying retailers: http://www.necdisplay.com/products/resellerlist.htm

too bad that does not apply to Canada

 

[Bonesdad]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: SLM Crew Chief
I posted it before but incase anyone missed it... I had a Dell with the S-IPS in it. It had some issues so I exchanged it for this one and got the S-PVA. I liked the S-IPS one MUCH better. This S-PVA has the appearance of looking thru a fine window screen, especially toward the edges. On xtknight's "Test your dark grayscale" page, to get it set so that it is visible straight on, it makes verything else washed out, and way too bright like this text, background, etc. It can be set so that it doesn't look so bad reading message boards, etc but then to view the grayscale, you actually have to view it WAY off center. Viewed on center, the whole page looks black. I've only used this one like 4 days and I'm really thinking about calling Dell and getting my money back. My biggest problem is what I'd replace it with would have to be the NEC at over 600 dollars but currently, IMO, it would be worth it!

The one thing I do have to say is that with the S-PVA, I don't get that purple cast when looking at extreme angles, lol.

Your S-PVA has a washed out look from strong horizontal angles though, right? To be honest with you the viewing angles on S-IPS are far from flawless but the grayscale inversion is minimal.

I'm pleased to announce that since I haven't heard any DVI issues about the ViewSonic VX2025WM lately I'm going to put it back up there on the recommendations. I'm also thinking it may just be the cable they're including with the LCD, but I'm not sure. There's really nothing better at that price point...nothing even close, even if the ViewSonic isn't perfect. When the Dell was at $340 and was still using an S-IPS that was the obvious choice. Alas, times (and not to mention, panels) change. The VX2025WM will now fill the $300 high-quality LCD screen void again.

Glad to see this Viewsonic is another recommeded monitor...what category will it fit into the gaming or the multimedia area? What is your opinion on the non-gaming use of this monitor? Other than the DVI probs, any other huge drawbacks? You noted on the front page that Viewsonics suffer from washed out colors. How bad are we talking here?

 

[BassBomb]

Originally posted by: Bonesdad

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: SLM Crew Chief
I posted it before but incase anyone missed it... I had a Dell with the S-IPS in it. It had some issues so I exchanged it for this one and got the S-PVA. I liked the S-IPS one MUCH better. This S-PVA has the appearance of looking thru a fine window screen, especially toward the edges. On xtknight's "Test your dark grayscale" page, to get it set so that it is visible straight on, it makes verything else washed out, and way too bright like this text, background, etc. It can be set so that it doesn't look so bad reading message boards, etc but then to view the grayscale, you actually have to view it WAY off center. Viewed on center, the whole page looks black. I've only used this one like 4 days and I'm really thinking about calling Dell and getting my money back. My biggest problem is what I'd replace it with would have to be the NEC at over 600 dollars but currently, IMO, it would be worth it!

The one thing I do have to say is that with the S-PVA, I don't get that purple cast when looking at extreme angles, lol.

Your S-PVA has a washed out look from strong horizontal angles though, right? To be honest with you the viewing angles on S-IPS are far from flawless but the grayscale inversion is minimal.

I'm pleased to announce that since I haven't heard any DVI issues about the ViewSonic VX2025WM lately I'm going to put it back up there on the recommendations. I'm also thinking it may just be the cable they're including with the LCD, but I'm not sure. There's really nothing better at that price point...nothing even close, even if the ViewSonic isn't perfect. When the Dell was at $340 and was still using an S-IPS that was the obvious choice. Alas, times (and not to mention, panels) change. The VX2025WM will now fill the $300 high-quality LCD screen void again.

Glad to see this Viewsonic is another recommeded monitor...what category will it fit into the gaming or the multimedia area? What is your opinion on the non-gaming use of this monitor? Other than the DVI probs, any other huge drawbacks? You noted on the front page that Viewsonics suffer from washed out colors. How bad are we talking here?

Viewsonic has lack of adjustments for that monitor (only a few degrees in tilt back and forth)

 

[Bonesdad]

Well, I'll have to take a look at it in person at OM. Does this thing have lots of good connections on the mon? Narrowing down my choices to:

Viewsonic VX2025WM
LG L204WT
Samsung 215TW

dropped the Dell from the top 3, due to uncertainties about the panel type.

my uses are mostly gaming (WoW, HL2 and some other FPS), lots of web use, some picture editing, plus all the other normal home uses (word, quicken, porn etc) (just kidding about the porn btw)

There are advantages and drawbacks to each of these monitors. Want to keep this under $400.

 

[CellarDoor]

Anybody have any experience with the Gateway 22" monitor (FPD2275W)? The website claims it is an S-PVA with 16.7 million colors, but it also says it has 160 degree viewing angles, and from the price ($400) I find it hard to believe it's an S-PVA.

Other than that, I was just wondering if anyone had tried it and what they thought. Thanks.

 

[SLM Crew Chief]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: SLM Crew Chief
I posted it before but incase anyone missed it... I had a Dell with the S-IPS in it. It had some issues so I exchanged it for this one and got the S-PVA. I liked the S-IPS one MUCH better. This S-PVA has the appearance of looking thru a fine window screen, especially toward the edges. On xtknight's "Test your dark grayscale" page, to get it set so that it is visible straight on, it makes verything else washed out, and way too bright like this text, background, etc. It can be set so that it doesn't look so bad reading message boards, etc but then to view the grayscale, you actually have to view it WAY off center. Viewed on center, the whole page looks black. I've only used this one like 4 days and I'm really thinking about calling Dell and getting my money back. My biggest problem is what I'd replace it with would have to be the NEC at over 600 dollars but currently, IMO, it would be worth it!

The one thing I do have to say is that with the S-PVA, I don't get that purple cast when looking at extreme angles, lol.

Your S-PVA has a washed out look from strong horizontal angles though, right? To be honest with you the viewing angles on S-IPS are far from flawless but the grayscale inversion is minimal.

I'm pleased to announce that since I haven't heard any DVI issues about the ViewSonic VX2025WM lately I'm going to put it back up there on the recommendations. I'm also thinking it may just be the cable they're including with the LCD, but I'm not sure. There's really nothing better at that price point...nothing even close, even if the ViewSonic isn't perfect. When the Dell was at $340 and was still using an S-IPS that was the obvious choice. Alas, times (and not to mention, panels) change. The VX2025WM will now fill the $300 high-quality LCD screen void again.

Yes, it does look washed out when viewed at steep horizontal angles. Unfortunately, if I am playing a game or watching a homemade video shot at late dusk, early evening the only way to see anything is to view it from the side. Otherwise, like I said, it all looks black. It can be changed by using RivaTuner to turn the gamma up for a while and then turn it back down. Also to just make out the changes in the 7,7,7 or 8,8,8 range on the grayscale page. Interestingly, the changes come in groups of two or three, if viewed at enough of an angle. 3 to 5, 6 to 9, 10 to 11, 12 to 13, 14 and 15. I can get them all seperated but the gamma has to be so high that nothing else looks remotely right.

I'm still seriously considering doing whatever it takes to return this to Dell. If I look closely at the black sections on your grayscale page, I can again see "movement" in the pixels. Maybe it's just the refreshing but sometimes, it is alot worse, and it's really bad on my other system using a 9800Pro video card but that may be due to an old driver, I don't know.

All in all, I'm very not impressed. I also may be seriously scrutinizing this panel due to the first one being bad.

I was looking at the NEC on newegg.com and all it says is tilt and swivel, not height adjustment. Is this right? Is the speaker bar thing removable? If so, can you post how high off a desk the bottom of the case is? What panel is in the Viewsonic that you referenced to? I don't know if I can get Dell to take this back as my initial order was just over a month ago but I'm looking into replacements if I can. Thanks!

edit: I forgot that this thing looks like looking thru a very fine window screen, especially at the edges and the backlight bleed is most noticable in the corners but it actually makes an " X " pattern on the screen on a totally black page.

 

[SLM Crew Chief]

Originally posted by: Howard
The dark grayscale test page doesn't seem to be working in either Opera or IE. All I get is a set of stair-stepped RGB(x,x,x) text.

The page is working just fine. It's your monitor, trust me. The text you are refering to is so you know "where" you are. You can get the grayscale visible with adjustments to brightness, contrast and gamma. It takes time, especially depending on your monitor and how good it is but you can get there, at least some of the way there. If I get mine so all the scales are visible, nothing else looks even decent let alone good. Good luck and have fun!

 

[cryptonomicon]

i went for the benq fp93gx since i play alot of games... It has it's problems but I think it was a good deal. this thread helped a bit in my decision so I brought some feedback.

good:
-fast enough to handle FPS games (not liquid like 100FPS synced to a 100HZ CRT was, but still pretty nice). i did not notice any ghosting really, it's a fast panel.
-excellent in RTS/MMO games like WoW
-great at normal desktop work, text looks excellent
-pretty cheap, was ~ $208 at newegg*
-physical design is simple, clean
-bright colors

typical not-so-good stuff
-viewing angle sucks.. if you arent orientated exactly in the center while viewing, the top or bottom of the screen will lose brightness basically. I understand this to be a typical problem of the TN-film panels.
-color accuracy is pretty bad (6-bit dithering), but that doesn't matter in games much.
-top and bottom end of the color range are washed out (again, doesn't matter much in gaming)... thus can't display all the gradients on the lcdresource page, probably 3 black and 2 white of all 8 or so gradients.
-the OSD is limited and the button design is a pain to remember

*also, had no dead pixels

 

[jaz50y]

The HP L2335 is no longer available on HP's site. It seems to have been replaced by the HP w22 22" wide-screen. Anyone familiar with this monitor? I am looking for monitor that can also do HDTV, and althernative at moment is the BenQ 24".

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: blight
On the topic of native resolutions and gaming, I was wondering how big of a difference there is between 19" LCD widesreens and 20.1" besides the native resolution (1440x900 vs. 1680x1050). I will be using the computer for gaming (world of warcraft mostly), so I was looking at the 20.1"w: LG Flatron L204WT, 1680x1050 (16:10), which is around $330. However, I am seeing alot of 19" monitors with fast response times such as the LG194WT and the Samsung 940BW (and many others) that are $70~$100 cheaper. Is there any real difference besides the native resolution, and is the higher resolution worth the extra money?

Well, compared to the L204WT there may not be that much difference, but compared to the VX2025WM, your getting a 19" widescreen will be a regret. When I say that, I mean that the P-MVA panel is leaps and bounds ahead of the other TN panels.

I doubt I will be playing games in 1680x1050 since I am still using a Radeon 9800 (I currently play in 1280x1024), and I do not want to spend money upgrading my video card to support higher resolutions on a new widescreen monitor. Sorry if these questions have been answered, I read through the OP but decided I didn't have the patience to sift through 144 pages of responses. TYIA.

What I do to search through the thread is to set the [messages per page] option to the maximum and then just go through the 5 or 6 pages it yields.

Note: I am also looking at the Dell E207WFP and the Samsung 205BW as well. I have always heard Dell Monitors are excellent, and it also seems to be one of the least expensive as well.

Don't bother with those unless there's no way you can get a VX2025WM.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Bonesdad
Glad to see this Viewsonic is another recommeded monitor...what category will it fit into the gaming or the multimedia area? What is your opinion on the non-gaming use of this monitor? Other than the DVI probs, any other huge drawbacks? You noted on the front page that Viewsonics suffer from washed out colors. How bad are we talking here?

The multimedia section. It doesn't meet the strict requirements of the hardcore gaming section. That is: less than 10 ms response time across the board and low input lag (input lag hasn't been measured for the VX). Regardless, it is probably very good in both areas, and most people will prefer the VX2025WM for gaming anyway.

The washed-out color problem isn't nearly as bad as it used to be with ViewSonic's 19" LCDs, so I can't assume that it's terrible. And, it happens on AUO panels, not just ViewSonics. I made that correction to the LCD errata section of the OP.

I will slide the 215TW below the VX2025WM as it has input lag issues.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Bonesdad
Well, I'll have to take a look at it in person at OM. Does this thing have lots of good connections on the mon? Narrowing down my choices to:

Viewsonic VX2025WM
LG L204WT
Samsung 215TW

dropped the Dell from the top 3, due to uncertainties about the panel type.

my uses are mostly gaming (WoW, HL2 and some other FPS), lots of web use, some picture editing, plus all the other normal home uses (word, quicken, porn etc) (just kidding about the porn btw)

There are advantages and drawbacks to each of these monitors. Want to keep this under $400.

The ViewSonic VX2025WM is the best all-around, and it's pretty economical. The 215TW has a slower response time and some input lag, so I only recommend it for movies or general usage. I suppose gaming on it is fine for some, but not most. The LG is cheap, but the price difference isn't worth what you're giving up by not getting the VX2025.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: CellarDoor
Anybody have any experience with the Gateway 22" monitor (FPD2275W)? The website claims it is an S-PVA with 16.7 million colors, but it also says it has 160 degree viewing angles, and from the price ($400) I find it hard to believe it's an S-PVA.

Other than that, I was just wondering if anyone had tried it and what they thought. Thanks.

"cellar door"...that does sound like beautiful English. Anyway...

Gateway has likely mislabeled it as an S-PVA. It's probably a Chi Mei 22" TN, which isn't too shabby of a panel. It seems to have lots of multimedia features too.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: SLM Crew Chief
Yes, it does look washed out when viewed at steep horizontal angles. Unfortunately, if I am playing a game or watching a homemade video shot at late dusk, early evening the only way to see anything is to view it from the side. Otherwise, like I said, it all looks black. It can be changed by using RivaTuner to turn the gamma up for a while and then turn it back down. Also to just make out the changes in the 7,7,7 or 8,8,8 range on the grayscale page. Interestingly, the changes come in groups of two or three, if viewed at enough of an angle. 3 to 5, 6 to 9, 10 to 11, 12 to 13, 14 and 15. I can get them all seperated but the gamma has to be so high that nothing else looks remotely right.

I'm still seriously considering doing whatever it takes to return this to Dell. If I look closely at the black sections on your grayscale page, I can again see "movement" in the pixels. Maybe it's just the refreshing but sometimes, it is alot worse, and it's really bad on my other system using a 9800Pro video card but that may be due to an old driver, I don't know.

Uh oh, the plot thickens... This may be one of Samsung's crappy 6-bit panels. Needless to say, the 2007WFP has lost the privilege of being recommended by now.

All in all, I'm very not impressed. I also may be seriously scrutinizing this panel due to the first one being bad.

I was looking at the NEC on newegg.com and all it says is tilt and swivel, not height adjustment. Is this right?

That's correct, there is no height adjustment.

Is the speaker bar thing removable?

Well, it doesn't seem to be coming off easy and there's no mention of that in the manual. Maybe it requires some more force. As it stands now I don't want to break anything, but it looks like it may come off as it is separate from the button panel.

If so, can you post how high off a desk the bottom of the case is? What panel is in the Viewsonic that you referenced to?

The VX2025WM has a P-MVA (4-domain, true 8-bit) panel.

I don't know if I can get Dell to take this back as my initial order was just over a month ago but I'm looking into replacements if I can. Thanks!

edit: I forgot that this thing looks like looking thru a very fine window screen, especially at the edges and the backlight bleed is most noticable in the corners but it actually makes an " X " pattern on the screen on a totally black page.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: cryptonomicon
i went for the benq fp93gx since i play alot of games... It has it's problems but I think it was a good deal. this thread helped a bit in my decision so I brought some feedback.

good:
-fast enough to handle FPS games (not liquid like 100FPS synced to a 100HZ CRT was, but still pretty nice). i did not notice any ghosting really, it's a fast panel.
-excellent in RTS/MMO games like WoW
-great at normal desktop work, text looks excellent
-pretty cheap, was ~ $208 at newegg*
-physical design is simple, clean
-bright colors

typical not-so-good stuff
-viewing angle sucks.. if you arent orientated exactly in the center while viewing, the top or bottom of the screen will lose brightness basically. I understand this to be a typical problem of the TN-film panels.
-color accuracy is pretty bad (6-bit dithering), but that doesn't matter in games much.
-top and bottom end of the color range are washed out (again, doesn't matter much in gaming)... thus can't display all the gradients on the lcdresource page, probably 3 black and 2 white of all 8 or so gradients.
-the OSD is limited and the button design is a pain to remember

*also, had no dead pixels

Good to hear. I didn't expect anything more or less than that.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: jaz50y
The HP L2335 is no longer available on HP's site. It seems to have been replaced by the HP w22 22" wide-screen. Anyone familiar with this monitor? I am looking for monitor that can also do HDTV, and althernative at moment is the BenQ 24".

Crap, it looks like you're right. What about the Sony SDM-P234?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Howard
The dark grayscale test page doesn't seem to be working in either Opera or IE. All I get is a set of stair-stepped RGB(x,x,x) text.

Sure your monitor isn't just clipping the tones? I ask because it works in Opera and IE fine here.

 

[Butterbean]

Anyone know how much more power a S-IPS monitor consumes vs a S-PVA. I did read that S-IPS uses more power than a same size S-PVA but I was wondering if its considerable or negligible.

I ended-up with a S-PVA (2007FPW) from Dell when I expected a S-IPS and I don't like the head-on "black out" thing but for the cost (340 US) I don't know what I could get thats much better. If the S-PVA was better on power consumption I might keep it. Otherwise I will look to get the NEC for 600 ducats. Thanks ; )

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Butterbean
Anyone know how much more power a S-IPS monitor consumes vs a S-PVA. I did read that S-IPS uses more power than a same size S-PVA but I was wondering if its considerable or negligible.

Just check out the specifications of the monitors in question to get the power draw numbers. S-IPS panels don't really consume more themselves, but the backlight has to be stronger to achieve the same brightness since the S-IPS crystal alignment is such that it blocks twice as much light. That results in better midtone image quality though, so that's not a bad thing.

I ended-up with a S-PVA (2007FPW) from Dell when I expected a S-IPS and I don't like the head-on "black out" thing but for the cost (340 US) I don't know what I could get thats much better. If the S-PVA was better on power consumption I might keep it. Otherwise I will look to get the NEC for 600 ducats. Thanks ; )

It's really not that much difference.

Samsung 215TW (flagship S-PVA): 75 w max
NEC 20WMGX2 (flagship S-IPS): 92 w (max?)

The NEC reaches a higher brightness level at max too. I'm not sure if a lower brightness would result in less power draw because the brightness is controlled mainly by the matrix itself. There is some modulation of the backlight, but I don't know if modulating it makes it use less power or not.

 

[Butterbean]

Thanks xtknight . I'm not generally that power conscious since my old CRT was worse than both panels I suspect. I'm just looking for reasons not to send this thing back after all the hassles (its my second Dell S-PVA - the first had stuck pixels glowing in main viewing/screen cap area). I don't mind spending more on the NEC if its bettter to look at (especially for video). I havn't seen many S-ISP panels but I know I dont like seeing dark areas when looking straight on the S-PVA. If a certain panel fixes that then I am good to go. The S-PVA isn't an awful panel. Has some nice features for $350, but I already catch myself tipping side to side to see what I am looking at. I dont need to check the service panel to see what I have because it shows right away.

 

[thiswilldo]

I am currently interested in purchasing the HP LP2065 but there seem to be two models being sold. The EF227A4#ABA costs ~100 more then the EF227A8#ABA. Is there really any difference between the two?