LCD Buyer's Guide

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: acrabb
XT - YOU WERE RIGHT!!! I waited too long for Dell to "make things right". So, they left me hanging - needing a monitor before this weekend (although they promised a callback within 24 hrs on Tues, they called at 5pm on Friday). So, I was forced to drive to the nearest city (~70 miles), to shop for the best monitor (best deal) that I could find. It became apparent that I would have the Samsung LTM210M2 panel (Samsung 215TW; HP F2105; Gateway 2185) - I could not find any S-IPS panels. So, I purchased the 215TW at Compusa - sales rep told me to buy a pack of gum to put the purchase over $500 and I recieved a $50 gift card. FWIW - earlier that day Circuit City sold their last "Open Box" HP F2105 for $310!

Now about the Samsung 215TW - it's ok. Maybe, my expectations are too high, but it doesn't make me oh and ahh. Issue #1 - during the calibration (Monaco), the final adjustment has the brightness set on 1 (scale is 0-100). So, this baby has plenty of room to go up, but I hope there is never a need to go down on brightness! Issue #2 - maybe this isn't specific to this monitor, but adjusting the R value was not moving the slider on the red bar - ok it didnt move it much. I had to center it by adjusting the blue and green. So, now I wonder (because I can probably stay centered by moving red from ~25 to 60+) if something is wrong with my monitor; I havent actually tried adjusting the red it since I finished - I am basing this on the fact that the earlier adjustment was not moving the slider). Finally, the calibration has left the screen on my laptop looking like crap! Everything is way too blue! I am a sports photographer (hobbiest), and I like to take pictures and do a quick color edit and post the photos to the web. Then, when/if orders are placed, I hook up to the external monitor to do final editing of photos before uploading to the printer. So, my exclussive (almost) use, is to ensure that I have good color (my on monitor edit matches the printer). However, the profile for the external monitor leaves the laptop in really bad shape. I have tried applying different profiles at different times, but nothing seems to be working for me. Am I doing something wrong? Does anyone have a suggestion of how I can use one profile for the laptop and another for the external monitor? And another thing the dE was ~3.5 - 4 (I forgot the exact #), but it was worst than the Dell PVA that I sent back.

I would say this is definitely user error (no offense).

The 215TW should calibrate to <1 dE94. The low brightness value is really no issue. My 20WMGX2 calibrates to only around 9 brightness at 120 nits. The contrast is usually sky high (97). I've noticed the color controls are a little stubborn on my LCD during calibration too, and they don't seem to "take" immediately, but I believe it is because of some threshold ("bug" or "feature" in colorimeter or software), not a problem with the monitor.

What software are you using?

And what colorimeter model?

Gretag-Macbeth Eye One Display 2 + basICColor allows me to get my LCD at <0.40 dE94 for most tones. You should be able to use a different profile for laptop and monitor. How exactly I don't know. It depends on your graphics driver. I don't believe that Windows has a function to set gamma ramp based on display # so you better hope the driver does. I know NVIDIA drivers can do it without trouble.

I have little doubt you'll be able to calibrate the 215TW to amazing settings.

 

[acrabb]

Originally posted by: xtknight

I would say this is definitely user error (no offense).

The 215TW should calibrate to <1 dE94. The low brightness value is really no issue. My 20WMGX2 calibrates to only around 9 brightness at 120 nits. The contrast is usually sky high (97). I've noticed the color controls are a little stubborn on my LCD during calibration too, and they don't seem to "take" immediately, but I believe it is because of some threshold ("bug" or "feature" in colorimeter or software), not a problem with the monitor.

What software are you using?

And what colorimeter model?

Gretag-Macbeth Eye One Display 2 + basICColor allows me to get my LCD at <0.40 dE94 for most tones. You should be able to use a different profile for laptop and monitor. How exactly I don't know. It depends on your graphics driver. I don't believe that Windows has a function to set gamma ramp based on display # so you better hope the driver does. I know NVIDIA drivers can do it without trouble.

I have little doubt you'll be able to calibrate the 215TW to amazing settings.

In order:
User error - Yeap! Dont know how or why, but something weird going on with the Reds. I have recalibrated and I am @~1.4dE - after evaluating the test, L and a values were +/- 0.05; b was + 1.0. So, I may try adjusting the blue again. For what it is worth, after the "Calibration", I reran the "Evaluation" and it was 3.94 (what the heck is going on).

Brightness - I may have made a big mistake, but when it told me to set the brightness at 100%, I set it at 60%. Then, it wanted me to increase the brightness to adjust for the room lighting - this time I ended up at 78 (a far cry from 1). When I started at 100 - I could not meet the requirements (go figure).

Software - MonacoOPTIX 2.0; I think its Pro

I am not sure about the graphics driver options - I think that if I go into a mode to adjust the RGB values, then, it takes over as the "Default" profile - I have experienced troubles trying to switch back and forth, but I will keep trying.

Thanks for all of your help - all help (comments and criticism) is appreciated

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: acrabb

Originally posted by: xtknight

I would say this is definitely user error (no offense).

The 215TW should calibrate to <1 dE94. The low brightness value is really no issue. My 20WMGX2 calibrates to only around 9 brightness at 120 nits. The contrast is usually sky high (97). I've noticed the color controls are a little stubborn on my LCD during calibration too, and they don't seem to "take" immediately, but I believe it is because of some threshold ("bug" or "feature" in colorimeter or software), not a problem with the monitor.

What software are you using?

And what colorimeter model?

Gretag-Macbeth Eye One Display 2 + basICColor allows me to get my LCD at <0.40 dE94 for most tones. You should be able to use a different profile for laptop and monitor. How exactly I don't know. It depends on your graphics driver. I don't believe that Windows has a function to set gamma ramp based on display # so you better hope the driver does. I know NVIDIA drivers can do it without trouble.

I have little doubt you'll be able to calibrate the 215TW to amazing settings.

In order:
User error - Yeap! Dont know how or why, but something weird going on with the Reds. I have recalibrated and I am @~1.4dE - after evaluating the test, L and a values were +/- 0.05; b was + 1.0. So, I may try adjusting the blue again. For what it is worth, after the "Calibration", I reran the "Evaluation" and it was 3.94 (what the heck is going on).

Brightness - I may have made a big mistake, but when it told me to set the brightness at 100%, I set it at 60%. Then, it wanted me to increase the brightness to adjust for the room lighting - this time I ended up at 78 (a far cry from 1). When I started at 100 - I could not meet the requirements (go figure).

Software - MonacoOPTIX 2.0; I think its Pro

I am not sure about the graphics driver options - I think that if I go into a mode to adjust the RGB values, then, it takes over as the "Default" profile - I have experienced troubles trying to switch back and forth, but I will keep trying.

Thanks for all of your help - all help (comments and criticism) is appreciated

Something still doesn't sound right. What graphics adapter are you currently using? You are on a laptop and trying to calibrate the external display (215TW), correct?

 

[acrabb]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Something still doesn't sound right. What graphics adapter are you currently using? You are on a laptop and trying to calibrate the external display (215TW), correct?

Yes - I am using a laptop with the 215TW hooked up as an external monitor. I am not exactly sure about the graphics adapter question - I have an ATI Mobility Radeon X1400 - is that what you're asking about (or did I just show my ignorance on this issue)?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: acrabb

Originally posted by: xtknight
Something still doesn't sound right. What graphics adapter are you currently using? You are on a laptop and trying to calibrate the external display (215TW), correct?

Yes - I am using a laptop with the 215TW hooked up as an external monitor. I am not exactly sure about the graphics adapter question - I have an ATI Mobility Radeon X1400 - is that what you're asking about (or did I just show my ignorance on this issue)?

No, that's exactly what I meant.

I suspect it 'evaluated' your colors differently because the gamma got changed during the process somehow. Everything for color settings in the ATI graphics control panel should be set to all defaults before calibration. See if you can find display-specific gamma settings. In the NVIDIA panel there's a way to right-click one monitor and click color correction (it only adjusts for that one monitor). I have no idea if ATI has the same thing or whether it always adjusts color for all connected displays at once.

 

[acrabb]

Originally posted by: xtknight
See if you can find display-specific gamma settings.

I have to go to a church function - I will try it out later. I know there is an option in the ATI "Control Center" for "Notebook Panel Properties". However, in this section, only Hue and Saturation can be adjusted.

I will try to get the laptop close again - then, recalibrate the external again. Maybe I will even try reading a manual at some point

 

[lorlabnew]

I'm about to order NEC 20WMGX2-BK from newegg for christmas, but I noticed they have another nice monitor in stock - the ASUS PW201. Could someone comment on that one? Price of both models is nearly equal since NEC has $50 MIR.. I'm pretty much set on NEC but the Asus looks good. Please advice, thanks!

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: lorlabnew
I'm about to order NEC 20WMGX2-BK from newegg for christmas, but I noticed they have another nice monitor in stock - the ASUS PW201. Could someone comment on that one? Price of both models is nearly equal since NEC has $50 MIR.. I'm pretty much set on NEC but the Asus looks good. Please advice, thanks!

There's no comparison. Get the NEC 20WMGX2, as it has much better image quality.

 

[Mystiqq]

Received my HP LP2065 and first impressions were quite shocking. The display looks nice and has no pixel problems, at least for the moment. However the color gradients are absolutely horrific. I just cant believe my eyes when i look at some of the gradient tests. The banding by any standards is so off the charts that nearly made me cry.

I have to see and tweak the settings and see if i can reduce it but currently its so excessive that it would take a miracle to remove it completely, or even close to acceptable. Note that i was not expecting perfect gradients but this is just ridiculous.

 

[lorlabnew]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: lorlabnew
I'm about to order NEC 20WMGX2-BK from newegg for christmas, but I noticed they have another nice monitor in stock - the ASUS PW201. Could someone comment on that one? Price of both models is nearly equal since NEC has $50 MIR.. I'm pretty much set on NEC but the Asus looks good. Please advice, thanks!

There's no comparison. Get the NEC 20WMGX2, as it has much better image quality.

thanks xtknight,

appreciate your fast reply - OK, I'll go with 20WMGX2... I suspected that the Asus could be inferior because nowhere on their site or elsewhere I could find detailed specs about the panel used in that model. I also considered that HP you recommended some time ago, but I know that I'd regret not getting the best what is out there (just like as I picked up 8800gts instead of 8800gtx, now i'm bit sorry that I didn't pay the extra few hundred). I'll order NEC today.

Dave

 

[Mystiqq]

I probably overreacted to this "flaw". After switching to using VGA (1600x1200 75hz(?)) and it seems better overall. Gradient was not as bad as before. However, it still obviously banding across the whole range of colors.

When i displayed some photos and tried CAD i noticed how much better 20" is which is the reason i decided to keep this. As long as it doesnt get any pixel problems, none so far, im not going to was my time fighting with the returning. Returning stuff here is quite hard, if not impossible.

This is my first LCD so i think i just need to get used to not get everything...

edit:

Looks like this model has a backlight issue on the bottom left side, ive got 4 high res pictures of this display, including mine, and each has same problem on the left side. Its pretty bad especially with movies, other corners are more or less perfect.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Mystiqq
Received my HP LP2065 and first impressions were quite shocking. The display looks nice and has no pixel problems, at least for the moment. However the color gradients are absolutely horrific. I just cant believe my eyes when i look at some of the gradient tests. The banding by any standards is so off the charts that nearly made me cry.

Well I sure hope it's not the same issue the L2000C (same panel) has. I looked at every review of the LP2065 I could find and saw no mention of it. Are you sure you're looking at the right charts and interpreting them correctly? Some of the tests there are stepped gradients.

Sorry to hear about the backlight bleeding though. Generally the panel in the LP2065 (LPL 20.1" S-IPS) is very uniform, but some less-uniform panels do seep out. My advice is to use a low brightness level and a high contrast level (if it looks any good).

 

[Mystiqq]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Mystiqq
Received my HP LP2065 and first impressions were quite shocking. The display looks nice and has no pixel problems, at least for the moment. However the color gradients are absolutely horrific. I just cant believe my eyes when i look at some of the gradient tests. The banding by any standards is so off the charts that nearly made me cry.

Well I sure hope it's not the same issue the L2000C (same panel) has. I looked at every review of the LP2065 I could find and saw no mention of it. Are you sure you're looking at the right charts and interpreting them correctly? Some of the tests there are stepped gradients.

Sorry to hear about the backlight bleeding though. Generally the panel in the LP2065 (LPL 20.1" S-IPS) is very uniform, but some less-uniform panels do seep out. My advice is to use a low brightness level and a high contrast level (if it looks any good).

Im looking the correct charts as im comparing them to the CRT, which im using as my primary display at the moment. The banding is quite bad(understatement), especially with DVI. The czeck review has gradient test and it does have slight indication of banding but its very obvious when you see it yourself.

As for the backlight, yea, i got unlucky with that. Ive seen 3 other HP LP2065 highres images and none of them have this kind of bleeding. I cant stand it and im hoping this will be covered by the warranty or im able to return it. Returning however is difficult and the store doesnt have to take it back as ive already used it (a day).

http://img328.imageshack.us/img328/39/hplp2065backlightbadxq7.jpg
Just... no.

If warranty doesnt cover **** like this which clearly is "off" from what it would "normally" look like, then i might as well try and fix it myself. If thats even possible, though ive seen some people fix Dell's...

This is what i photoshopped to make it look like the banding, the result is very close to this in DVI mode. The dithering is almost identical, which makes me believe if this really is 6bit+dither after all.
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/3741/bandinguz9.gif

Anyways, im using the VGA connection as it makes the text etc. look a lot better. Its not as "crisp" but for some reason its better. What kind of disadvantages does using VGA over DVI have? Is there any?

edit:
Heres a shot with a camera...
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9417/hplp2065bandingtd7.jpg

However, with high resolution images like landscapes with clear blue skies, these gradients arent visible. Though, usually camera shots dont have perfect gradiets so i think in games and such that use simpe gradients as sky (WoW?) would probably look pretty bad i guess...

 

[willbemcse]

I am thinking of getting dell 2007 wfp has anyone bought this model recently to see what panel type this monitor is "RT803" should be the code for LG/Phillips S-IPS and "PM330" is the code for S-PVA panels.
I am getting this for $348.00 is that a good deal or I am better off looking at samsung or lg

 

[Mystiqq]

@xtknight

Since you have seen quite a few LCDs in your life, how would you rate the bleed on my LCD?

edit:

Just noticed something with the banding. With certain settings the gradients are identical to my CRT and theres zero banding now. Around 95 contrast the banding is gone.

This is quite strange. Changing the contrast from the LCD controls will change how big (wide) the banding is. When i do the same by changing contrast from the video card (ati control center) it does not change how wide the banding is but "slides" the "strands" across the gradient. Brightness (LCD) does not have any effect to the bands in the gradients.

I was expecting that if i increase the contrast in the LCD and decrease back in the video card, i would get same results as i had in the start, but i didnt. As if there was something "wrong" how the LCD controls the contrast.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Mystiqq
@xtknight

Since you have seen quite a few LCDs in your life, how would you rate the bleed on my LCD?

Yours does look pretty bad in the lower-left corner.

The gray gradient you linked isn't perfect, but all you're really noticing is your LCD being sharper than your CRT. If your CRT were perfectly sharp, you'd see bands too. The banding (gradation) rarely manifests itself in real-world applications. If you use gray gradients anywhere it'll be bad though.

The VGA connection is just more blurry, so you see less bands. I do find it hard to believe you prefer the text over VGA though. DVI with a good anti-aliasing algorithm will give you the best text reproduction.

Here is a test image: http://www.xtknight.atothosting.com/tools/grayfilt.png

The top portion of it is an actual gradient, and the bottom portion is a dithered/antialiased gradient (just so you can see what your LCD is capable of).

 

[Mystiqq]

Read the previous post i made, i updated just now.

This contrast "effect" clearly has to be some form of a dither algorith or similar.

edit:

On a side note, HP LP2065 does emit high pitch sound with completely white or black screen. Anyone who has extremely quiet computers etc. would probably go mad but for me the sound drowns in the fan noise and whatnot so its not a problem.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Mystiqq
@xtknight

Since you have seen quite a few LCDs in your life, how would you rate the bleed on my LCD?

edit:

Just noticed something with the banding. With certain settings the gradients are identical to my CRT and theres zero banding now. Around 95 contrast the banding is gone.

This is quite strange. Changing the contrast from the LCD controls will change how big (wide) the banding is. When i do the same by changing contrast from the video card (ati control center) it does not change how wide the banding is but "slides" the "strands" across the gradient. Brightness (LCD) does not have any effect to the bands in the gradients.

I was expecting that if i increase the contrast in the LCD and decrease back in the video card, i would get same results as i had in the start, but i didnt. As if there was something "wrong" how the LCD controls the contrast.

The brightness affects the overall matrix (perhaps partly the backlight). Contrast will change the gradation around a bit. Still, there are no "image enhancement" (i.e. ACC, ACM) algorithms in this LCD that cause banding. (Unless I'm totally off-base with what you're seeing, there is nothing wrong with what the LCD is doing.) It isn't optimal, I'll say that, but it is not a defect (any unit of that LCD you get will look exactly the same in that way). There are only 256 brightness levels displayable by the LCD, but that matches your video card's output. CRTs can display an infinite amount of colors so they can use that to their advantage to create intermediate levels of brightness (50.001, 50.002). Their triangular phosphor arrangement creates an effect similar to Gaussian blur, masking 'hard' edges of color transitions. LCDs do not have these techniques in their arsenal.

You'd be a great reviewer BTW. That's good as you may notice stuff the professional reviewers haven't. My NEC emits a subtle high pitch also (seems like lots of bigger LCDs do).

 

[CheesePoofs]

I'm looking for a cheapish (around 300), but still good, widescreen display, so I've been thinking of getting a refurbished 2007wfp, with the hope that it'd be the older, S-IPS version. Anyone have any thoughts on this, or if there's a better display for the money (hoping to do some gaming and multimedia stuff)? And does anyone know what dell's return policy is for refurbished lcds? I can't seem to find it on their site.

Thanks

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: willbemcse
I am thinking of getting dell 2007 wfp has anyone bought this model recently to see what panel type this monitor is "RT803" should be the code for LG/Phillips S-IPS and "PM330" is the code for S-PVA panels.
I am getting this for $348.00 is that a good deal or I am better off looking at samsung or lg

I have no clue what you'll end up with, but if you want to take the risk, go for it. Personally I would grab an LG L204WT.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: CheesePoofs
I'm looking for a cheapish (around 300), but still good, widescreen display, so I've been thinking of getting a refurbished 2007wfp, with the hope that it'd be the older, S-IPS version. Anyone have any thoughts on this, or if there's a better display for the money (hoping to do some gaming and multimedia stuff)? And does anyone know what dell's return policy is for refurbished lcds? I can't seem to find it on their site.

Thanks

I'm not sure about Dell's policy. Generally refurbished products have a shorter warranty.

Just as willbemcse, I would recommend to you the LG L204WT.

 

[CheesePoofs]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: CheesePoofs
I'm looking for a cheapish (around 300), but still good, widescreen display, so I've been thinking of getting a refurbished 2007wfp, with the hope that it'd be the older, S-IPS version. Anyone have any thoughts on this, or if there's a better display for the money (hoping to do some gaming and multimedia stuff)? And does anyone know what dell's return policy is for refurbished lcds? I can't seem to find it on their site.

Thanks

I'm not sure about Dell's policy. Generally refurbished products have a shorter warranty.

Just as willbemcse, I would recommend to you the LG L204WT.

So the LG is a 6-bit panel but does 16.7million colors? I'm assuming it still can't be as good as an 8-bit panel, but would the difference be especially noticeable?

That and do you know of any places to get it online? Seems circuit city is the only store to carry it.

Thanks a lot for the help.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: CheesePoofs
So the LG is a 6-bit panel but does 16.7million colors? I'm assuming it still can't be as good as an 8-bit panel, but would the difference be especially noticeable?

That and do you know of any places to get it online? Seems circuit city is the only store to carry it.

Thanks a lot for the help.

It is a 6-bit panel and does indeed do 16.7M (via FRC). It still isn't as good as an 8-bit panel due to dithering/FRC.

Circuit City actually is the only carrier of this LCD (in the US), to my knowledge.

 

[Mystiqq]

Originally posted by: xtknight
@xtknight

The brightness affects the overall matrix (perhaps partly the backlight). Contrast will change the gradation around a bit. Still, there are no "image enhancement" (i.e. ACC, ACM) algorithms in this LCD that cause banding. (Unless I'm totally off-base with what you're seeing, there is nothing wrong with what the LCD is doing.) It isn't optimal, I'll say that, but it is not a defect (any unit of that LCD you get will look exactly the same in that way). There are only 256 brightness levels displayable by the LCD, but that matches your video card's output. CRTs can display an infinite amount of colors so they can use that to their advantage to create intermediate levels of brightness (50.001, 50.002). Their triangular phosphor arrangement creates an effect similar to Gaussian blur, masking 'hard' edges of color transitions. LCDs do not have these techniques in their arsenal.

You'd be a great reviewer BTW. That's good as you may notice stuff the professional reviewers haven't. My NEC emits a subtle high pitch also (seems like lots of bigger LCDs do).

Interesting. Im quite surprised what i found but also bit relieved as i can now decrease the banding to a point where its, more or less, unnoticeable.

The banding isnt much of a problem actually. The real problem is the backlight bleeding most of the left side. Any picture that has any black spots of any kind (shadows etc.) on the left side are grayish black and on the right "pure" black. This is HUGELY annoying especially when im trying to use this for editing/viewing graphics and so forth. The normal bleed on the other corners arent visible as such or in the way. The corners are slightly distorted anyways due to the LCD viewing angle, even with S-IPS, so some bleed doesnt hurt that much.

Calling HP today see and what they think. This display is a so called "business" display so im hoping they are more... "understanding".

edit:

Display returned and waiting for a replacement. Hopefully one without pixel errors, like in the first one, and with normal backlight. One can only hope i guess... with my luck ill be probably looking at least couple pixel errors instead of horrible backlight.

 

[Fallen Kell]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: xboxist
Quick connection question.

Will this card connect well to the 20WMGX2? The card came with an array of cables. But I have no DVI knowledge. I don't know if there are different types of DVI ports, or even if there different types of DVI cables.

Thanks!

Any graphics card with DVI can hook up to any DVI LCD. You just need a male-to-male DVI cable.

Sorry to beg to differ with you on this one. This is not true. I ran into a situation at work due to this. The Dell monitors that we had been ordering would only accept a DVI-D connection. The monitor cord was built into the LCD panel (i.e. we couldn't just remove it), and we needed to connect this monitor to a video card that only had DVI-A output. This simply does not work. Since the monitor would not read the analog signal since Dell decided they could save about $10 and not include the capabilities for an analog input, the guy was SOL and had to have a special order made for a different monitor.