LCD Buyer's Guide

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: rxblitzrx
Dell 2405FPW or HP LP2065. Which one has better picture quality???

The 2405FPW's PVA isn't all that great. Viewing angles are rather poor and contrast doesn't touch the S-PVA panels. The HP LP2065 is superior by a considerable margin.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: CheesePoofs
So update on the LGL204WT. I've had it for a few days, and like it a lot. I've played UT2k4 on it and it looks great, no ghosting that I can detect at all. Movies don't look bad, but the colors of smoke seem to clump together and make the color look like it's in 16 bit mode. Which is the main problem that I've noticed: shades of dark colors. Not sure if it's banding or just the fact that this is a 6-bit panel at heart, but the monitor has a bit of trouble producing different dark grays. But everything else seems fine. And widescreen is awesome, especially after having spent the last few years on an 1152x864 17" CRT.

It could be something with the F-Engine, but you say you have all that weird stuff disabled...

 

[Phlargo]

I did a review of my Viewsonic VP930b when I first got it... here's the review:

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...hreadid=1739157&enterthread=y&arctab=y

Since I wrote this I've really enjoyed the monitor. The viewing angle is consistently pleasing - color representation is pretty damn good for having calibrated it with the built-in perfect suite software package. The best thing about the monitor is the stand - it's so versatile yet so robust. The biggest weakness is the backlight bleeding and dark colors - neither of which generally bug me, even when looking at pretty dark images/games/movies.

I'm currently considering a new monitor in 1st half 2007. The AS-IPS panel seems like a real winner - I'm all about color depth and contrast and it seems like it has both in droves. Wish it came in a 23" and only cost $450.. I'd have one now.

 

[nubreed000]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: nubreed000

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: nubreed000

Originally posted by: xtknight
LCD Buyer's Guide
As of Thursday, Dec 28, 2006

LCDs with bad Overdrive side effects
(avoid these whenever possible)

Samsung SyncMaster 930BF (X-Bit Labs)

Does anyone know if this monitor, and the SyncMaster 931BF are the same models? I'm thinking about getting the 931BF as it seems like a great deal (2000:1 ratio and 2ms response), but I wanna know if they suffer from the same problems.

I'm not sure about that. My guess would be that it's solved. The 2000:1 is way overblown and really not that amazing (just dynamic contrast) so don't feel as if you passed up some great offer.

Ah, I see. I guess I'll just go with a 20" panel instead then, since they cost around the same amount. I'm thinking of either the Samsung 205BW, Acer's AL2016W and Dell's 20" screens.

Which one would you pick out of those 3? I noticed that spec-wise (from what I know), the Dell features the best specs, but how trustworthy are Dell's?

I would get the Samsung 205BW. It has been tested (by X-Bit Labs) and proven to be good. Dell's value monitors are ones to avoid regardless of specs. (Talk about cheap...) The Acer...well why bother when there's the 205BW which we know is good?

sweet! thanks for helping me narrow it down greatly appreciated

 

[Phlargo]

Btw.. xtknight - I wanted to thank you for this wonderful thread and your website - there's so many technologies in LCDs out there and such poor internet coverage regarding all the details. When the monitor is the thing you see the most of when using your computer, why isn't it covered more in critical reviews? Always seemed the singlemost important component to me!

Keep up the fabulous work!

 

[rxblitzrx]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: rxblitzrx
Dell 2405FPW or HP LP2065. Which one has better picture quality???

The 2405FPW's PVA isn't all that great. Viewing angles are rather poor and contrast doesn't touch the S-PVA panels. The HP LP2065 is superior by a considerable margin.

My roommate should read this on his Dell 2405FPW. LOL! It's always fun to compare.

 

[Engel]

Originally posted by: xtknight
The 2405FPW's PVA isn't all that great. Viewing angles are rather poor and contrast doesn't touch the S-PVA panels. The HP LP2065 is superior by a considerable margin.

I find this interesting, to say the least. Unless the 2405FPW is using some really early, primitive version of Samsung's PVA panel, I would not guess that its viewing angle would be poor. One of the positive things about the 971P is its viewing angle: it's terrific. Of course, S-IPS panels are still king compared to the PVA/MVA technology, but is the panel in the 2405FPW so bad that it would be on par with the relatively poor viewing angles of TN panels?

Oh, and on a side note: my VP930b is out for delivery today, so my review of it is forthcoming. I'm not a hasty judge (like I said, I waited ~3 weeks before making a final judgment on the 971P), so I suspect the review will happen not today, but soon.

 

[tm101]

I switched from a VP930 to a VP2030 and can say that the VP2030 is a better monitor in every aspect but one, namely that you cannot use true 75 Hz on the VP2030 whereas on the VP930 you can.

 

[tm101]

By the way, here is an overview of most current panel sizes, including native resolution, dot pitch and pixelperinch (PPI). You will always want to have a HIGH PPI, if your fonts are too small then simply chose bigger ones.

Size Resolution PPI Dot Pitch

15" 1024 x 768 85,52 0,297 mm
17" 1280 x 1024 96,42 0,264 mm
19" 1280 x 1024 86,39 0,294 mm
20" 1600 x 1200 99,61 0,255 mm
21" 1600 x 1200 94,07 0,270 mm

19" WS 1440 x 900 89,12 0,285 mm
20" WS 1680 x 1050 98,45 0,258 mm
22" WS 1680 x 1050 90,07 0,282 mm
23" WS 1920 x 1200 98,45 0,258 mm
24" WS 1920 x 1200 94,07 0,270 mm
26" WS 1920 x 1200 88,50 0,287 mm
27" WS 1920 x 1200 83,83 0,303 mm
30" WS 2560 x 1600 101,6 0,250 mm

PS: This board really needs some way to use a

 symbol, for the use of a monospace font.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Engel
I find this interesting, to say the least. Unless the 2405FPW is using some really early, primitive version of Samsung's PVA panel, I would not guess that its viewing angle would be poor.

It was using a very primitive PVA if I recall. There were lots of complaints of backlight bleeding and the tone shift at viewing angles was the worst of any PVA. The 2407 was a big jump in quality when it started using an S-PVA panel. S-PVA vs. S-IPS is barely a contest, let alone PVA vs. S-IPS.

The 971P is smaller so it's not nearly as noticeable. The 971P is way superior to the 2405FPW in terms of color quality. The contrast on the 2405FPW may be 800:1 at the best. The 971P reaches 1000:1~1700:1.

One of the positive things about the 971P is its viewing angle: it's terrific. Of course, S-IPS panels are still king compared to the PVA/MVA technology, but is the panel in the 2405FPW so bad that it would be on par with the relatively poor viewing angles of TN panels?

TNs are better at most angles you'd be seeing it at. The only time the PVA leads is when it succeeds showing a completely faded image at a 150~180 degree angle (black vs. faded, take your pick).

Oh, and on a side note: my VP930b is out for delivery today, so my review of it is forthcoming. I'm not a hasty judge (like I said, I waited ~3 weeks before making a final judgment on the 971P), so I suspect the review will happen not today, but soon.

Interesting. I hope it uses a new panel.

 

[tm101]

The first VP930 came with these specs:

6 bit + FRC, 1000:1, 250 cd/m²

The current one comes with these specs:

8 Bit, 1300:1, 300 cd/m²

Cannot say if anything was really changed, there were quite some problems with FRC. Nevertheless Viewsonic sold them so successfuly in Europe that they are nearly out of stock.

 

[xtknight]

The current VP930 is 8-bit? You sure about that? I want a refund for my 6-bit one, lol.

 

[tm101]

I am not sure. But the first VP930 was advertised as 6 Bit + FRC in Germany, while the british Viewsonic site wrote 8 Bit and the american Site did not make any statements at all. The current VP930 is stated as 8 Bit on all sites.

 

[CheesePoofs]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: CheesePoofs
So update on the LGL204WT. I've had it for a few days, and like it a lot. I've played UT2k4 on it and it looks great, no ghosting that I can detect at all. Movies don't look bad, but the colors of smoke seem to clump together and make the color look like it's in 16 bit mode. Which is the main problem that I've noticed: shades of dark colors. Not sure if it's banding or just the fact that this is a 6-bit panel at heart, but the monitor has a bit of trouble producing different dark grays. But everything else seems fine. And widescreen is awesome, especially after having spent the last few years on an 1152x864 17" CRT.

It could be something with the F-Engine, but you say you have all that weird stuff disabled...

I've got the F-Engine set to normal, not user, because in normal I can't change contrast or brightness; when I do it instantly reverts back to normal mode. I'm definitely going to have to play around with contrast and brightness to get something that I actually like, right now it always seems too something (not sure if it's too bright, too high contrast, both, or neither), though it's not much of a problem at all.

And so apparently there's an option for sharpness under the monitor controls as well. I messed with it and it certainly does change sharpness. Is it almost like built in aa for the monitor?

One more question: I have an ati card, and under the catalyst control center there's an option for "use centered timings" which seems to claim that it'll make any non-native resolution run 1:1 by putting black bars around the outside, only it doesn't work. Is there some way to get this to work, or does it really not work in most cases?

Thanks!

Edit: And I guess I have another question. I was looking at the banding test again for some reason, and I don't know what I'm supposed to look for, but on the dark side, are there supposed to be lines separating the different shades, adn should I be able to clearly see where the shades transition? Because I can see that for the entire dark half of the screen. I tried taking a picture but none came out well, they all had a ton of noise.

 

[0x0BADF00D]

Dot pitch, dot pitch, dot pitch... I'm mad about the dot pitch!

I've had an NEC LCD20WGX2 for 3 weeks now, and it's effing great. Especially when compared to the two 2007WFP panel lottery turds that preceded it. First one - a Samsung PVA job. Second one - an LG-P IPS, but it was obvious that my hands weren't the first to have opened that box. Besides, I realised that I could not live without a glossy coating like on my Asus W2 laptop. To me the difference between glossy and anti-glare, is like a brand new book... before and after you wrap it in that clear PVC film. It's just "gritty".

Back to the main point of my rant. When I look at 20WGX2 and W2 side by side... Both are glossy. The NEC has flawless colors and super viewing angles, and is super-bright (if need be). The W2 colors are totally out of wack, and the vertical viewing angles are poor (the most important ones in a laptop!) The horizontal viewing angles are much better, but the color shifts (make that inversions) are still there. For example the standard Linux "black on light yellow" terminal color scheme is just that on the NEC. On the W2, the yellow looks like light pink... unless you look at it from a side angle... and then it's a true yellow.

But the one big difference is size. They are the same 1680x1050 resolution, but one is 20", the other 17". So, dare I say this, provided you don't move your head (or at least stay within that 10-degree vertical sweetspot), the text looks somewhat better on the laptop, to me at least. Dot-pitch seems to be the only explanation (perhaps IPS technology has a greater screen-door effect vs. TN tech, needing twice as many transistors per pixel).

So my question is... When will we see really, really high definiton desktop displays. The "fonts are too small" is no longer an excuse with Vista and OS X and decent scaling fonts and all that, and if you want to play games at lower res, the more pixels, the better the interpolation. I'm sorry but 19" SXGA don't cut it for me. I want the paperless office. I want to be able to read *everything* of the screen. I don't want to waste space on books, dvd cases, etc.. See a complete DSLR picture on the screen at native res. I know that such beasts exist (or existed a few years ago). For example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T221 (no longer produced). This one, also impressive, and no longer produced: http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,102388-page,1/article.html?tk=dn070102X

You can get high resolutions in specialty medical monitors like these
http://www.barco.com/corporate/en/products/category.asp?catid=71

But when will we have this stuff in the mainstream?

 

[Nova6]

Hi, I have some questions about the 20WMGX2.

I've been looking to get a new monitor since the middle of last summer, but I could never find anything I liked. I've tried several LCD's and ended up returning them all. I never considered getting the 20WMGX2 as it was way out of my budget at the time, but it's not so much the case anymore. I can't afford to make another mistake though, so I'm still hesitating. I mostly use my PC for gaming/web browsing.

Firstly, how does the 20WMGX2 look at lower/non-widescreen resolutions? I enjoy replaying older games once in a while. I really don't mind using my current monitor for them if it doesn't look so good on the NEC, though.

Secondly, one of the monitors I've tried last summer was the 70GX2. I loved the glossy coating and the image looked a lot sharper than on other 17" LCD's, but it had some nasty backlight bleeding and it seemed way too bright. For example, in Oblivion, dungeons just weren't dark at all. This is my main concern about the 20WMGX2 and LCD's in general. Is it really that good at displaying dark areas in games, and dark colors? I know that's subjective, but you 20WMGX2 owners are most likely as picky as I am.

Thanks a lot for the help. I'm about to give up on finding a monitor I like, I hope the 20WMGX2 is going to be it, despite the high price.

 

[mset]

hi xt

Just a quick follow up question - how do you go about figuring out which panel is in which monitor? I have been doing my research and trying to make sure I know about all the good candidates in my price range. However, the reviews I read almost never mention the actual type of panel being used (S-PVA, S-IPS, TN etc)

For example

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,127274-page,1-c,monitors/article.html

Is there a source for this information or is it just that you know most of them off by heart? I need some way of ruling out TN panels.

Thanks, Nik

 

[0x0BADF00D]

This Russian site seems reasonably up-to date.

http://axofiber.no-ip.org/inside/monitor.lcd.panels.htm

You can also filter the table by panel-type,brand, technology, etc.. Quite nifty. Translated to English the fields are:

Brand / Model ,resolution ,brightness, contrast, response time, viewing angles, manufacturer, size, panel type, model type.

A dot-pitch calculator:

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/data/pixel.size.htm

The fields are: resolution, diagonal, viewing area, format, dot pitch, PPI, resolution designaction.

Panels-only table:

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/data/lcd.panels.htm

The last column specifies coating type (???????????? = anti-glare, ????????? = glossy).

They also have a table of notebook panels buried somewhere, but I don't think it's very up-to date.

 

[mset]

Originally posted by: 0x0BADF00D
This Russian site seems reasonably up-to date.

http://axofiber.no-ip.org/inside/monitor.lcd.panels.htm

Perfect... thanks, BAD. That filtering function is exactly what I need.

EDIT: Wow. These links are very useful. Anyone trying to figure out which monitor to buy, or which has your specs, needs to check these out.

 

[0x0BADF00D]

Although it's the most comprehensive site that I've found , you may also want to cross-reference things with other sides:

http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/wiki/index.php?title=Master_Monitors_List

http://www.prad.de/en/guide/vergleich_auswahl.html

This site seems to be referenced quite a bit, although being in Danish, I haven't been able to navigate through it all that much.

http://www.flatpanels.dk/

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: CheesePoofs
And so apparently there's an option for sharpness under the monitor controls as well. I messed with it and it certainly does change sharpness. Is it almost like built in aa for the monitor?

Pretty much. It is probably just a digital/approximate Gaussian blur filter.

One more question: I have an ati card, and under the catalyst control center there's an option for "use centered timings" which seems to claim that it'll make any non-native resolution run 1:1 by putting black bars around the outside, only it doesn't work. Is there some way to get this to work, or does it really not work in most cases?

I have no idea. I've heard the same thing from tons of users. ATI's centered mode simply doesn't work (at least it's not performed on the video card and relies on the LCD's DSP). And most LCD DSPs can't do centered mode.

Thanks!

Edit: And I guess I have another question. I was looking at the banding test again for some reason, and I don't know what I'm supposed to look for, but on the dark side, are there supposed to be lines separating the different shades, adn should I be able to clearly see where the shades transition? Because I can see that for the entire dark half of the screen. I tried taking a picture but none came out well, they all had a ton of noise.

Which one? gradlin?

I wouldn't say there was supposed to be lines, but if the steps are noticeably different in brightness nothing is wrong.

Originally posted by: 0x0BADF00D
Dot pitch, dot pitch, dot pitch... I'm mad about the dot pitch!

I've had an NEC LCD20WGX2 for 3 weeks now, and it's effing great. Especially when compared to the two 2007WFP panel lottery turds that preceded it. First one - a Samsung PVA job. Second one - an LG-P IPS, but it was obvious that my hands weren't the first to have opened that box. Besides, I realised that I could not live without a glossy coating like on my Asus W2 laptop. To me the difference between glossy and anti-glare, is like a brand new book... before and after you wrap it in that clear PVC film. It's just "gritty".

Back to the main point of my rant. When I look at 20WGX2 and W2 side by side... Both are glossy. The NEC has flawless colors and super viewing angles, and is super-bright (if need be). The W2 colors are totally out of wack, and the vertical viewing angles are poor (the most important ones in a laptop!) The horizontal viewing angles are much better, but the color shifts (make that inversions) are still there. For example the standard Linux "black on light yellow" terminal color scheme is just that on the NEC. On the W2, the yellow looks like light pink... unless you look at it from a side angle... and then it's a true yellow.

But the one big difference is size. They are the same 1680x1050 resolution, but one is 20", the other 17". So, dare I say this, provided you don't move your head (or at least stay within that 10-degree vertical sweetspot), the text looks somewhat better on the laptop, to me at least. Dot-pitch seems to be the only explanation (perhaps IPS technology has a greater screen-door effect vs. TN tech, needing twice as many transistors per pixel).

Well, I'm glad you like the NEC. I'm not sure, but screen door effect is mainly caused by whatever separates the pixels, and possibly the aperture ratio.

So my question is... When will we see really, really high definiton desktop displays. The "fonts are too small" is no longer an excuse with Vista and OS X and decent scaling fonts and all that, and if you want to play games at lower res, the more pixels, the better the interpolation. I'm sorry but 19" SXGA don't cut it for me. I want the paperless office. I want to be able to read *everything* of the screen. I don't want to waste space on books, dvd cases, etc.. See a complete DSLR picture on the screen at native res. I know that such beasts exist (or existed a few years ago). For example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T221 (no longer produced). This one, also impressive, and no longer produced: http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,102388-page,1/article.html?tk=dn070102X

You can get high resolutions in specialty medical monitors like these
http://www.barco.com/corporate/en/products/category.asp?catid=71

But when will we have this stuff in the mainstream?

I'm yearning for the same thing. I want extremely high pixel density (like a 1920x1200 15.4" laptop has). I had emailed NEC about this and they said something along the lines of "when there's a demand I'm sure NEC will release a product". Pfft...well I could have written them an essay in response to that but I figured it was a waste of my time.

If I recall, the only LCD manufacturer that took a chance with this was IDTech who released high-density 20"+ DD-IPS displays.

To be honest I don't think it will hit mainstream until OLED comes out. It's possible that it's just too hard to produce, but I don't see how they can make 1920x1200 15.4" displays. Maybe response time is a slight issue, but I don't recall heavy ghosting on 1920x1200 15.4" LCDs. Who knows...

0x0BADF00D: Many thanks for those great links. I've come across them before though just haven't gotten around adding them to the OP, which I will do now.

Originally posted by: Nova6
Hi, I have some questions about the 20WMGX2.

I've been looking to get a new monitor since the middle of last summer, but I could never find anything I liked. I've tried several LCD's and ended up returning them all. I never considered getting the 20WMGX2 as it was way out of my budget at the time, but it's not so much the case anymore. I can't afford to make another mistake though, so I'm still hesitating. I mostly use my PC for gaming/web browsing.

Firstly, how does the 20WMGX2 look at lower/non-widescreen resolutions? I enjoy replaying older games once in a while. I really don't mind using my current monitor for them if it doesn't look so good on the NEC, though.

I get asked this question a lot. Fortunately I can answer it when it comes to the 20WMGX2. Lower resolutions look better than any other scaler's output that I've seen, but I still can not convince myself to play games at lower resolutions given the quality decrease. Something just doesn't look right when it's scaled. Mostly, it's just because the scaling is adaptive and rather inconsistent, and it hurts my eyes reading the mangled text.

Secondly, one of the monitors I've tried last summer was the 70GX2. I loved the glossy coating and the image looked a lot sharper than on other 17" LCD's, but it had some nasty backlight bleeding and it seemed way too bright. For example, in Oblivion, dungeons just weren't dark at all. This is my main concern about the 20WMGX2 and LCD's in general. Is it really that good at displaying dark areas in games, and dark colors? I know that's subjective, but you 20WMGX2 owners are most likely as picky as I am.

Well, the 20WMGX2 has the most uniform screen I've ever seen. Black level is about 0.25 nits calibrated. It can go down to 0.16 nits with advanced DVM and low brightness settings. It displays dark stuff better than average. But, no, it is not perfect when it comes to dark stuff. Only 90% better than any other LCD I've seen, but not up to even a $100 shadow mask CRT IMO. But that's OK. It is not plagued by backlight seeping and bluish fading. The only downside is that dark stuff is a bit unsaturated and gray. Honestly, it's not that bad, but still not as good as a CRT.

Thanks a lot for the help. I'm about to give up on finding a monitor I like, I hope the 20WMGX2 is going to be it, despite the high price.

I have little doubt it will be it.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: mset
hi xt

Just a quick follow up question - how do you go about figuring out which panel is in which monitor? I have been doing my research and trying to make sure I know about all the good candidates in my price range. However, the reviews I read almost never mention the actual type of panel being used (S-PVA, S-IPS, TN etc)

For example

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,127274-page,1-c,monitors/article.html

Is there a source for this information or is it just that you know most of them off by heart? I need some way of ruling out TN panels.

Thanks, Nik

If 161 degrees or above is listed in the specs for viewing angle, it's not a TN. 176 is usually MVA/PVA, 178 usually S-PVA/P-MVA/S-IPS. And I just know what manufacturers tend to use (ViewSonic rarely uses IPS screens, etc.)

 

[0x0BADF00D]

Originally posted by: xtknight

0x0BADF00D: Many thanks for those great links. I've come across them before though just haven't gotten around adding them to the OP, which I will do now.

You are welcome. BTW, here's the notebook LCD screen table on that same site.

http://axofiber.no-ip.org/inside/notebook.lcd.panels.htm

 

[9nines]

Xtknight or anyone,

I just got a 20wmgx2. It looks great. I was wondering if you help on a few issues.

One ? on best text viewing:

Sometimes text looks great and sometimes (as in when I am in Word) it does not. For example, on most web pages and only text under desktop shortcuts, text looks very good. On a minority of web pages and in applications such as Word, it does not look so good. In the latter cases, it looks pixilated and zaggy. I figured that has to do with the Sharpness setting but I tried the full range and I really only notice any difference at the very lowest range (like below 7.0 or so), as text gets blurry ? anything over 8 or so, seem to look the same all the way to 100.

Two ? overall settings, for gaming and web browsing:

My main use, when image quality matters on my machine is playing FPS and Online RPGs and general web browsing.

I have seen your recommendation on settings and tried them but never saw you recommend a Sharpness setting.

For my intended use what do you recommend for:

?1 Brightness
?2 Contrast
?3 Sharpness
?4 Advanced DV Mode (on/off?)
?5 DV Mode*
?6 Color **

* (you and many state ?standard? but ?gaming? and ?movies? seem a nicer blue and dark ? also, even in ?Standard?, I still see some banding, if graphics seem to be pictures in lower resolution, such as some on splash screens or web pages. Is the banding the only disadvantage to you on the other settings like ?gaming? and ?movies? or are there other advantages?)

** (I like ?native? as well, as you have posted before but have you found any good custom RGB settings?)

Three ? on scaling:

Also, as many have stated you can not get good 1:1 scaling and can not set the Exapnsion mode on DVI-PC. But if you set DV Mode, under Tools to DVI-HD you can then change Expansion setting but the picture is flickering as if it is a CRT on low frequency. Do you know what the DVI-HD is? Why the flickering? Can you set it to DVI-HD then change Expansion settings then put it back to DVI-PC, to get that Expansion setting chance for DVI-PC? I tried this a few times and once, a lower resolution game did have bars but later when I played the game again, the bars were gone and the image was stretched to full screen again and I have not got back to bars again, trying to force it again. Any ideas on this? Is it just and ATI card issue and Nvidia does work for 1:1 scaling on this monitor?

Thanks for any help and your previous informative posts.

 

[xtknight]

I've completed a revamping of the main page. Descriptions have been updated, definitions added, and grammar mistakes fixed.