Discussion Leading Edge Foundry Node advances (TSMC, Samsung Foundry, Intel) - [2020 - 2025]

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DisEnchantment

Golden Member
Mar 3, 2017
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TSMC's N7 EUV is now in its second year of production and N5 is contributing to revenue for TSMC this quarter. N3 is scheduled for 2022 and I believe they have a good chance to reach that target.


N7 performance is more or less understood.


This year and next year TSMC is mainly increasing capacity to meet demands.

For Samsung the nodes are basically the same from 7LPP to 4 LPE, they just add incremental scaling boosters while the bulk of the tech is the same.

Samsung is already shipping 7LPP and will ship 6LPP in H2. Hopefully they fix any issues if at all.
They have two more intermediate nodes in between before going to 3GAE, most likely 5LPE will ship next year but for 4LPE it will probably be back to back with 3GAA since 3GAA is a parallel development with 7LPP enhancements.




Samsung's 3GAA will go for HVM in 2022 most likely, similar timeframe to TSMC's N3.
There are major differences in how the transistor will be fabricated due to the GAA but density for sure Samsung will be behind N3.
But there might be advantages for Samsung with regards to power and performance, so it may be better suited for some applications.
But for now we don't know how much of this is true and we can only rely on the marketing material.

This year there should be a lot more available wafers due to lack of demand from Smartphone vendors and increased capacity from TSMC and Samsung.
Lots of SoCs which dont need to be top end will be fabbed with N7 or 7LPP/6LPP instead of N5, so there will be lots of wafers around.

Most of the current 7nm designs are far from the advertized density from TSMC and Samsung. There is still potential for density increase compared to currently shipping products.
N5 is going to be the leading foundry node for the next couple of years.

For a lot of fabless companies out there, the processes and capacity available are quite good.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
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We were using MOSFETs for such a long time. Then we switched to FinFET.

Now we are switching to GAAFET. And soon we will be going Forksheet, and then CFET.

It's intriguing how in a short span of time, we went through so many transistor technologies.
 

Executor_

Junior Member
Mar 4, 2010
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Dumb thing to do if you ask me. How are they going to protect their fabs from rockets? Sounds like a fine way to sink billions. Or to get the US seriously involved in the conflict to protect their business interests.
The Israelis have the Iron Dome system, which is quite effective against those rockets. Intel has had a fab there for ages, how many times has it been hit so far?
 
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cebri1

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Jun 13, 2019
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NostaSeronx

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Sep 18, 2011
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Just decided to see if 12FDX popped up yet. I wasn't really looking at other companies or hunting down shanghai yet.

DXCorr had 12FDX since 2021 and has since updated their webpage in 2023 with it still being there.
Neural Semiconductor since 2020+ has employees with 12FDX "experience"
T-Footprint since 2023 has their website showing 12FDX.
MegaChips JP website has 12FDX since 2021, while the EN website shows in 2023 that 12FDX for 5G+FPGA is "planned"
GlobalFoundries Sofia, Bulgaria is hiring DTE coordinators for 12FDX for a bit now.

Shanghai FDSOI Forum 2023?:
Digital stuff 6.75T on 22FDX+ versus 6.75T on 22FDX:

RFSOI stuff with NextFDX=12FDX


Shanghai 2023 coverage appears to confuse that 22FDX+ hadn't already launched in 2021.
22FDX eVP => 2018
22FDX+ eVP = 2021 (+3 year)
12FDX as NextFDX = 2024 (+3 year).
This should be the corrected timeframe indicated by the roundtable? afterwards.

European event(STM/GF/Leti):
The timeline for the 7nm FDSOI node appears to be targeting 2026, so two years after 12FDX. Chip Act lead said to skip 10nm go straight to 7nm. There is an aggressive target after 7nm FDSOI and that is 3nm FDSOI which the preliminary target is 2029.
 
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misuspita

Senior member
Jul 15, 2006
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We were using MOSFETs for such a long time. Then we switched to FinFET.

Now we are switching to GAAFET. And soon we will be going Forksheet, and then CFET.

It's intriguing how in a short span of time, we went through so many transistor technologies.
Side effect of Moore's law's death. Transistors not getting any smaller means you need to keep innovating, but at other levels.
 

Doug S

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2020
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Side effect of Moore's law's death. Transistors not getting any smaller means you need to keep innovating, but at other levels.

Yes transistors were as close to 2D as possible in the past ("planar") and started to grow vertically with FinFET. CFET is kind of the end product of that evolution, where they will be a little skyscraper with even the P and N terminals stacked atop one another. That looks to mark the logical endpoint of transistor scaling in length and width, at least with silicon.
 

FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
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Tesla is reportedly going to make an FSD chip for their cars, on TSMC's N3P process node- according to an unofficial source. Previous reports had said that it will use N4.

This is interesting information. For one, N3P is not an automotive grade node. The other is that it's an extremely cutting edge node (Not yet in mass production, as of now).
 

Doug S

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2020
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Maybe they want the reliability of their electronics to drop to the level of reliability of their steering components and general fit and finish.

Oh and before someone says it - the reason for "automotive grade" chips is because proximity to internal combustion engines can be pretty hard on chips, but BEVs don't get that hot (if they do the chip's reliability is the least of your concerns)

Chips in BEVs still have vibration or moisture concerns but that's more of a packaging issue.
 

Khato

Golden Member
Jul 15, 2001
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Oh and before someone says it - the reason for "automotive grade" chips is because proximity to internal combustion engines can be pretty hard on chips, but BEVs don't get that hot (if they do the chip's reliability is the least of your concerns)
As anyone in a hot and sunny climate can attest to, combustion engines aren't the only reason why automotive components need higher heat ratings compared to conditioned space applications.
 

trivik12

Senior member
Jan 26, 2006
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Considering we are not that far off from 18A being ready for volume production, it makes sense for Intel to announce next set of nodes. I think we will slower cadence instead of faster releases. 16A could be further tweak of 18A and 14A probably next big change with High NA EUV. Other big change is going towards forksheet but that is probably another full node away.
 

Doug S

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2020
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Considering we are not that far off from 18A being ready for volume production, it makes sense for Intel to announce next set of nodes. I think we will slower cadence instead of faster releases. 16A could be further tweak of 18A and 14A probably next big change with High NA EUV. Other big change is going towards forksheet but that is probably another full node away.

If it takes a year from when Intel announces "18A ready for volume production" and the first chips reaching the market, as was the case for Intel 4, then we are still far away from 18A actually mattering.
 

H433x0n

Golden Member
Mar 15, 2023
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If it takes a year from when Intel announces "18A ready for volume production" and the first chips reaching the market, as was the case for Intel 4, then we are still far away from 18A actually mattering.
16A is a further tweak of 18A, it uses the same P1278 process family. It's not until 14A that it moves to P1280 process.
 

trivik12

Senior member
Jan 26, 2006
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If it takes a year from when Intel announces "18A ready for volume production" and the first chips reaching the market, as was the case for Intel 4, then we are still far away from 18A actually mattering.
for a process tech 1 year is nothing. it takes 3-5 years of development. TSMC is probably at somthing beyond N2 class as well. Samsung did mention 1.4 as well. Its just an announcement but any major change will be known like when Forksheets will be adopted.
 
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