League of Legends - F2P MOBA (like DOTA) part 2

[hans030390]

The only thing from Trinity Force that doesn't help Shyvana in some way is the additional mana. The additional AP is questionable, but everything else is what I'm looking for. And until I build my Frozen Mallet, the chance to slow on hit really helps. It really does work well with her. I remember before I started using this build, I thought it wouldn't work either. Once I tried it, I started doing much better with her overall.

Gold isn't really an issue with me and this build. Shyvana is great at farming, and I'm skilled enough with her now (in combo with how the build meshes with my play style) that kills and assists are plentiful enough that I can afford such expensive items without a problem.

 

[xSkyDrAx]

You're probably better off going with a wits end -> frozen mallet -> atmas than a T-force

 

[krnmastersgt]

While all the stats are nice on Shyvana, aside from both the mana and AP, the cost of the T-Force doesn't really justify the damage increase. Some champs get it because it helps get them that extra bit of movespeed they need, if you're having trouble keeping up as Shyvana you have a much larger issue. Wits End + Burnout is all you really need for damage output until you can get out an Atma's.

 

[HumblePie]

No need for TForce at all on Shyvanna. No mana, and no ability power needed. The sheen proc is okay, but not needed really. Frozen mallet + atmas + wit's end + PD is really all you need. Add in Merc treads and you are set. Anything else is to get your defenses up against what you need most. You should have plenty of armor from atmas, plenty of MR from wit's end and merc treads, and plenty of health from FM. Not to mention the armor and MR gain from her dragon form. Her primary problem is lack of CC and chasing down runners. With PD, frozen mallet, and burnout chasing or getting away is much easier.

Not to mention that TForce is the most expensive item in the game.

 

[hans030390]

No need for TForce at all on Shyvanna. No mana, and no ability power needed. The sheen proc is okay, but not needed really. Frozen mallet + atmas + wit's end + PD is really all you need. Add in Merc treads and you are set. Anything else is to get your defenses up against what you need most. You should have plenty of armor from atmas, plenty of MR from wit's end and merc treads, and plenty of health from FM. Not to mention the armor and MR gain from her dragon form. Her primary problem is lack of CC and chasing down runners. With PD, frozen mallet, and burnout chasing or getting away is much easier.

Not to mention that TForce is the most expensive item in the game.

I could try getting a PD instead, though I'm not sure what order I should do my build in now. The way I do it now more or less relies on me getting Trinity Force pretty quickly. I've tried mixing it up before with poorer results.

 

[xSkyDrAx]

I would think you'd go something like boots -> wits or phage depending on your lane and then go to FM then atmas. Wits should give you usable attackspeed until you finish atmas then finish up PDs for that extra AS/MS crit.

FM and Wits would make you very hard to peel giving the MS buff from burnout.

 

[HumblePie]

For Shyv I do this normally.

As a jungler she doesn't need wriggles but it still helps. Burnout, once high enough, will clear jungle spawns in rapid fashion.

boots + pots (for jungle or lane start)
Heart of Gold
Vamp Scepter
Merc Treads
Phage
Zeal


From here I prioritize my build based off how things are going and the opponents. If they are hitting me hard with a lot of AD I build up some armor. Going straight to atmas isn't a big deal at all at this point. Shyv's base health, phage, and HoG will provide a decent amount of AD from atmas. If I'm getting hit my too much AP I'll get a null cloak and work on wit's end. If I'm winning but finding people are getting to far away from me to escape me more often I'll grab a FM. It all depends.

Oh and I like grabbing Executioner's calling now with the new lifesteal changes. Actually I liked it a lot before the recent patch. But as one of the few lifesteal items that weren't changed, it has gone up in power.

 

[xSkyDrAx]

It would be nice if they made executioners calling a component to a new item like they did with hexdrinker. The item itself is pretty nice but it's hard to hang on to something like that into late game and ends up being a semi expensive side path.

 

[krnmastersgt]

While Wriggles is not necessary for her to clear the jungle with any decent speed, the procs from the Madred's effect as well as the additional stats + free ward are definitely worth it on Shyvana since her Q has a chance to proc the effect twice.

And hans, you said you build the phage and zeal components first for your T-Force, just think of the cost of that Sheen + recipe cost as upgrading your Zeal to a PD, or just grabbing the giant's belt portion of FM and a null magic mantle or something.

 

[HumblePie]

It would be nice if they made executioners calling a component to a new item like they did with hexdrinker. The item itself is pretty nice but it's hard to hang on to something like that into late game and ends up being a semi expensive side path.

450 vamp scepter + 400 brawler gloves + 900 = 1750 executioners calling.

Executioners calling costs less than wriggles, provides more lifesteal, and more damage on champions than wriggles. It lacks the armor provided by wriggles, and lacks the free ward and ability to kill non champions faster. Instead if gives a small dot (worthless), and has an activate that pretty much stops healing and regen. That active is HUGE against some champs like Mundo, or most supports, or those stacking BT's.

Anecdote, I was running a graves I bought executioners calling on and decimating a caitlyn that had stacked to BT's on her char. I would pop the activate from EC on her and proceed to demolish her while she couldn't lifesteal enough to over come my damage. She was before I got the EC, but certainly not after. She was pissed and couldn't figure out how I was beating her at that point Good times.

 

[Firsttime]

Wriggles only costs 1600. That said EC isn't bad, just suffers from the same shit all the other awesome mid games items that don't build into anything useful late game suffer from.

 

[HumblePie]

Wriggles only costs 1600. That said EC isn't bad, just suffers from the same shit all the other awesome mid games items that don't build into anything useful late game suffer from.

bleh for some reason I had the combine cost as 600. which had me thinking 1000 + 450 + 600 for 2050 cost.


Still EC is just a few hundred more in gold over wriggles. Prior to the wriggles nerfs, which I'm talking about all of them in the last few months, wriggles was the better item over all. More lifsteal, cheaper, and just flat out better. Now, not so much. Also wriggles doesn't combine into anything either.

There are only two really expensive items with lifesteal from vamp scepter. Bloodthirster and Hextech Gunblade.

The gunblade definitely is not for every champ. Bt's useful on the other hand has always been "bleh" in my opinion. It took 21 stacks for it to even make even on cost effectiveness and 30+ stacks to be considered "good" in comparison to other items. Stack items have some major problems and don't really do anything unless you are winning and not losing stacks. Which the argument could be made why bother with stacked items at that point when other items would have done just as well. If you are losing, items that rely on stacks are horrible as you can't keep the stacks going.

The main reason I like EC is the 15% crit chance in addition to the 18% lifesteal. The activate is just icing on the cake late game and that does matter in many games. The 15% crit chance late game adds more for damage to most heroes than just about anything else. Especially auto attack heroes.

Still it would be nice to have EC build into something that either adds more AD, ASPD, CSR, or even Health. There isn't a single lifesteal item that adds health as a stat and I think that sucks.

 

[Firsttime]

Bilgewater Cutless is my favorite item in this game. If they ever grow some sense and make a top tier item that combines that with Brutalizer I would be in love with AD casters.

 

[hans030390]

OK, so let's say these are the items I want to build with Shyvana:

Mercury Treads
Warmogs
Atmas
Frozen Mallet
Phantom Dancers
Wits End

I always start with a regrowth pendant and a health pot and get my Mercury Treads after that. I would normally then build my items in the order of Trinity Force, Warmogs, Atmas, Wits End, and Frozen Mallet. I'll need to switch it up this time around, though, since I won't be going with Trinity Force. Suggestions on a good build order with the items listed above, given my started items mentioned?

I figure I could still go with this to start:

Regrowth Pendant
Mercury Treads
Phage
Zeal

What I'm wondering then is where I go from there. Straight to Frozen Mallet? Phantom Dancers? Warmogs? Atmas? I do tend to prefer getting Wits End later, for whatever reason, unless they are heavy on AP.

 

[krnmastersgt]

Think it'll depend mostly on the situation from that point on. If you want to be a bit beefier and make it basically impossible for a target to run away, the Mallet is probably the preferred item. Typically I would think PD would be the best move, gives you some more AS/movespeed and crit and its only around 1600 more from the zeal. If you've been left alone to farm, or already have serious control of your lane then farming up your Warmog's faster would be a pretty good idea. Atma's is only if you need the extra bit of armor and damage for dueling some ADs.

 

[zebano]

Bilgewater Cutless is my favorite item in this game. If they ever grow some sense and make a top tier item that combines that with Brutalizer I would be in love with AD casters.

Jungle Cho + Bilgewater Cutlass = never miss a rupture =)

I usually buy a madreds/lantern first because it's that good of an item but those two are my core items and hold you in good stead until teamfights when you need the glacial shroud/MR item to be able to do much.

 

[zebano]

OK, so let's say these are the items I want to build with Shyvana:

Mercury Treads
Warmogs
Atmas
Frozen Mallet
Phantom Dancers
Wits End

I always start with a regrowth pendant and a health pot and get my Mercury Treads after that. I would normally then build my items in the order of Trinity Force, Warmogs, Atmas, Wits End, and Frozen Mallet. I'll need to switch it up this time around, though, since I won't be going with Trinity Force. Suggestions on a good build order with the items listed above, given my started items mentioned?

I figure I could still go with this to start:

Regrowth Pendant
Mercury Treads
Phage
Zeal

What I'm wondering then is where I go from there. Straight to Frozen Mallet? Phantom Dancers? Warmogs? Atmas? I do tend to prefer getting Wits End later, for whatever reason, unless they are heavy on AP.

Wit's end is better the earlier you get it. First off the 42 magic damage is small to begin with but as champions add MR and you don't build any MPen it's going to wither. The real point of it is really 3 fold -
1. jungle creeps have no MR so the 42 damage is true damage.
2. Attack speed is great on Shyv and directly synergizes with all her abilities
3. MR MR MR MR. It's actually enough to make you a bit beefy versus casters.

I mainly use the item on Phoenix Udyr and the difference in ganking a brand / other mid burst caster with and without the MR can be life & death if they turn and unload on you.

 

[Fenixgoon]

OK, so let's say these are the items I want to build with Shyvana:

Mercury Treads
Warmogs
Atmas
Frozen Mallet
Phantom Dancers
Wits End

I always start with a regrowth pendant and a health pot and get my Mercury Treads after that. I would normally then build my items in the order of Trinity Force, Warmogs, Atmas, Wits End, and Frozen Mallet. I'll need to switch it up this time around, though, since I won't be going with Trinity Force. Suggestions on a good build order with the items listed above, given my started items mentioned?

I figure I could still go with this to start:

Regrowth Pendant
Mercury Treads
Phage
Zeal

What I'm wondering then is where I go from there. Straight to Frozen Mallet? Phantom Dancers? Warmogs? Atmas? I do tend to prefer getting Wits End later, for whatever reason, unless they are heavy on AP.

the regrowth, merc, phage, and zeal would be your core build.

everything after that is entirely dependent on the team you're playing and how the game is progressing.

 

[hans030390]

the regrowth, merc, phage, and zeal would be your core build.

everything after that is entirely dependent on the team you're playing and how the game is progressing.

Of course. Generally I like to have a build setup as if the enemy team is fairly balanced in composition and skill level/how well they're doing. I do switch my items around as needed during an actual game, though.

 

[zebano]

Anyone interested in some 1v1 practice sessions? I've been practicing a few of these against zirze to get better and learn my mid lane matchups but with the rare exception of Xerath versus vlad he usually just crushes me. I'm focused on mid lane but I'm willing to work on top lane too. General rules are first to any of the following 100cs, tower or a kill counts as 20 cs. Although honestly this doesn't really cover all scenarios since a Morg could beat a Ryze just by farming both wraith camps as well as pushing mid lane and long term that Ryze might be more useful but it's the best metric I have so far.

 

[HumblePie]

Anyone interested in some 1v1 practice sessions? I've been practicing a few of these against zirze to get better and learn my mid lane matchups but with the rare exception of Xerath versus vlad he usually just crushes me. I'm focused on mid lane but I'm willing to work on top lane too. General rules are first to any of the following 100cs, tower or a kill counts as 20 cs. Although honestly this doesn't really cover all scenarios since a Morg could beat a Ryze just by farming both wraith camps as well as pushing mid lane and long term that Ryze might be more useful but it's the best metric I have so far.

I do these every so often, but I don't play for a goal like that. I play to allow you to find counters, or myself to find counters, to specific matchups you might get stuck with. That's how I've done it in the past. Pick a match up and go with it for 10 minutes, then switch the roles. So in your Morg vs Ryze scenario. You have player A as Morg and B as Ryze. Go for 10 minutes and it is going to be fairly easy to tell which player is going to dominate the other by that point. Then switch champs between the players and do another 10 minute game. Like you said, some matchups are just a bit uneven, but even so there are ways to make a weaker character in a matchup not "lose" as badly with the right play style. Just takes practice.

If you want to play against just about any champ, ask as I have most of them. I'll try to get on for a little bit tonight although for the past week I've been playing another game.

 

[Fenixgoon]

so i've been playing volibear a bit and i like him in lane 100x more than jungle.

usually i'll build counter items (MR/AR), get some aspd, and then get tanky - i've absolutely dominated GP and Morde this way (minus the part where nocturne ganks me)

i really feel like gunblade would be a great way to get damage and sustain on voli. i'll hopefully get to try that out soon:

start: cloth5, boots3, or null magic mantle +2pots
build: soul shroud (AR), spirit visage (MR, HP, CDR), negatron cloak, or wit's
then: phage
then: bilgewater -> gunblade

i've played a few games using ionic spark and honestly it seems rather worthless. wit's provides much better single-target DPS and lane-clearing power (spark only procs every 4th hit).

 

[guy666]

bleh for some reason I had the combine cost as 600. which had me thinking 1000 + 450 + 600 for 2050 cost.


Still EC is just a few hundred more in gold over wriggles. Prior to the wriggles nerfs, which I'm talking about all of them in the last few months, wriggles was the better item over all. More lifsteal, cheaper, and just flat out better. Now, not so much. Also wriggles doesn't combine into anything either.

There are only two really expensive items with lifesteal from vamp scepter. Bloodthirster and Hextech Gunblade.

The gunblade definitely is not for every champ. Bt's useful on the other hand has always been "bleh" in my opinion. It took 21 stacks for it to even make even on cost effectiveness and 30+ stacks to be considered "good" in comparison to other items. Stack items have some major problems and don't really do anything unless you are winning and not losing stacks. Which the argument could be made why bother with stacked items at that point when other items would have done just as well. If you are losing, items that rely on stacks are horrible as you can't keep the stacks going.

The main reason I like EC is the 15% crit chance in addition to the 18% lifesteal. The activate is just icing on the cake late game and that does matter in many games. The 15% crit chance late game adds more for damage to most heroes than just about anything else. Especially auto attack heroes.

Still it would be nice to have EC build into something that either adds more AD, ASPD, CSR, or even Health. There isn't a single lifesteal item that adds health as a stat and I think that sucks.

Umm actually Executioner's calling is cheaper than wiggle's. The combine cost for EC is 500, making it 1350 total. I think wiggle's is 1600 total

 

[HumblePie]

Umm actually Executioner's calling is cheaper than wiggle's. The combine cost for EC is 500, making it 1350 total. I think wiggle's is 1600 total

Ohh then I was originally right. Didn't look it up as I was going off memory. I thought it was cheaper than wriggles, and someone said it wasn't so I went with what they said. So then all my original points about EC being better than wriggles for most chars is spot on again in my opinion.

 

[hans030390]

Just tried a normal 5v5 with AD Lulu. It went really well, and our team (including myself) even had a horrible start! I think I went 12/6/22. If you use her buffs on herself (or as CC against an enemy if that is more helpful) and focus less on being a supportive role, she's pretty mean once she's a higher level and has some finished items.

I think you could play her in about any role. Considering all of her moves are either CC, buffs, or a combo of the two, you can utilize those for about any purpose. I'm not saying she's the BEST at all of these roles, but I can't think of many situations and builds/play styles where she isn't pretty useful.

Even without AP, her Q and E do a solid amount of damage on top of their other attributes. Popping her ult, E, and W on herself while being very aggressive with your Q and auto attacks makes for a very mean champ. Her passive also goes great with a bunch of attack speed.