Leaked recording at US/Canada border

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Papagayo

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2003
2,302
22
81
That 'what stores' question is total bullshit. What the fuck does that matter? He didn't say, we are going to JCPenny, he said 'we are going shopping'. I think that implies a lot of stores. Further more, what terrorist is going to get stumped by that question? Oh fuck, akbar, he asked me what stores. What do I tell him? If I say radioshack he might thinking Im buying a switch for a bomb!

Come on people. The cops were douches. By the way, he NEVER threatened anyone. There is no video, but by the sounds of it one of the cops was mean mugging him, when he got smart. He said something along the lines of "What are you going to do, shoot me?". How the fuck is that a threat? If anything, the cop was trying to be threatening/intimidating and he knew the cop couldn't do shit about it. Granted, getting smart isn't a good idea, but he never threatened anyone. The cops knew it too, they were just being power tripping assholes.

Cops go through thousands of people everyday. All he had to do is answer several questions and be nice and it's done. The driver was a smartass. Cops don't have time to deal with this crap from the driver. I smiled a little, when I heard the jail door slam.
Show some respect to law-enforcement and they will be nice and fair. You are not a customer, this isn't a store..
 

rasczak

Lifer
Jan 29, 2005
10,453
22
81
the guy crossing was a total douche looking for trouble. he should answered the questions given and walked away calmly. frickin' dumbass.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,476
11,788
136
I'm still not convinced that the "ordeal" really happened, but if it did, it was a set-up from the start, with the whole intent being to bait the border patrol and capture it on tape.

They should have tossed him in a Detroit jail cell for 72 hours for suspicion of anything. Let him make lots of new American friends...
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,728
44,049
136
last time i crossed to go to a Tigers game, the border guy on the US side was cool, he joked around with us and told us we all looked like criminals.

I went to a Lions game and they asked me why i would subject myself to such punishment....we both laughed and they waved me through.
 

Connoisseur

Platinum Member
Sep 14, 2002
2,471
1
81
The general impression i get from my experience with any sort of border crossing (driving or customs at the airport) is that coming back to the states is always more stressful than going to any other westernized nation. In general, the customs/border guards are usually much less polite coming back.

Now there's arguments to be made that there aren't terrorist threats against Canada so they can afford to be a little more lax. I make the counter-argument that i've been to Heathrow a couple of times and they're still far more polite to travelers than our US personnel, despite the fact that England is in the same boat as the US. Also, despite our perceived "heightened" level of security at borders, terrorists seem to make their way across our borders just fine. So the real questions are:
1) Is the general harsh attitude that US border guards have really effective at rooting out potential threats/criminals? (This is actually a question I have. i'd love to see statistics on this)
2) Will being polite and conducting interviews/questions in a professional and courteous manner really impinge on their ability to spot threats and still keep traffic moving?

My opinion of all this is that US borders inspections and customs can afford to get a severe overhaul as far as their general attitude towards travelers. US Citizens who never travel may not care but it certainly impacts opinion abroad and has been shown to affect tourism.

With all that said, yes the Canadian guy was a douche and was intentionally trying to pick a fight. His bad... Still I think Godless Astronomer has a point. If you keep saying: "Well he should just do/say what the police officer "asked"", at what point does we cease to be a "free" nation and turn into a police state where citizens lack the basic right of being considered innocent?
 

StrangeRanger

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,316
0
0
I can tell you from personal experience you don't fuck w/ the border guards. Ages ago when I was in high school some buds and I went up to Montreal for a night of fun. Been through a ton of times, shit, where I grew up I could literally walk through my back field to the border.
They can search your person, belongings and vehicle for any reason. And when they search they don't have to put anything back.
We were in my friend's car, he was driving, he was a tad stoned and decided to get lippy. The guard was not in the mood for us. We got searched (thankfully no body cavity searches), our bags got searched and the car got searched. And when I say the car was searched I mean it was just about stripped to the shell. Seats were removed, carpet was removed, wheels, battery, gas tank inspected, dashboard removed... everything. Then the guys smile at Chris, hand him a screw driver and say "Have a good night" and walk away.
So much for a night of drinking in Montreal.
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,709
11
81
I cross the border occasionally. It's definitely true that the US guards are usually quite dickish while the Canadian ones are really nice. I've given up on trying to talk to the US guards (how's your day going? nice weather we're having. etc) and just keep the answers short and to the point.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
I can tell you from personal experience you don't fuck w/ the border guards. Ages ago when I was in high school some buds and I went up to Montreal for a night of fun. Been through a ton of times, shit, where I grew up I could literally walk through my back field to the border.
They can search your person, belongings and vehicle for any reason. And when they search they don't have to put anything back.
We were in my friend's car, he was driving, he was a tad stoned and decided to get lippy. The guard was not in the mood for us. We got searched (thankfully no body cavity searches), our bags got searched and the car got searched. And when I say the car was searched I mean it was just about stripped to the shell. Seats were removed, carpet was removed, wheels, battery, gas tank inspected, dashboard removed... everything. Then the guys smile at Chris, hand him a screw driver and say "Have a good night" and walk away.
So much for a night of drinking in Montreal.

yeah..im going to go ahead and call shens on that..
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
10,572
3
71
I cross the border occasionally. It's definitely true that the US guards are usually quite dickish while the Canadian ones are really nice. I've given up on trying to talk to the US guards (how's your day going? nice weather we're having. etc) and just keep the answers short and to the point.

Hard to say for me. My last trip up to Vancouver for the Olympics, the women asked where I was going, what type of work I did, what company I worked for, what I did at my work. Much more than I normally get.

Unfortunately on my way back, a friend of mine decided to be an idiot and not have his papers together (had a Canadian Visa or something) and so we were forced to park our car and go inside to straighten it all out.
 

rockyct

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2001
6,656
32
91
Hard to say for me. My last trip up to Vancouver for the Olympics, the women asked where I was going, what type of work I did, what company I worked for, what I did at my work. Much more than I normally get.

Unfortunately on my way back, a friend of mine decided to be an idiot and not have his papers together (had a Canadian Visa or something) and so we were forced to park our car and go inside to straighten it all out.
I just went up for the Olympics as well and the border agent asked me those job questions as well. I just figured that was standard and I joked with my relatives in Canada that they were making sure I wasn't jumping the border to get a job up here. The lady I got was polite but she did kind of push me into saying I came up just for the Olympics:

lady: "why are you visiting Canada?"
me: "to visit my relatives while the Olympics are going on"
lady: "so you're here for the Olympics?"
me: "yeah, but also to see my relatives I haven't seen in a while"
lady: "but you wouldn't be here now if the Olympics weren't going on?"
me: "yeah, that's true"

Of course, I didn't want to argue with her that I wouldn't be coming to the Olympics if my relatives didn't live in Vancouver.

The border agents going back into the US were fairly nice as well. Two agents talked to me since there was no one waiting to come in and one guy had nothing to do. They were kind of joking around and rapid firing questions:

agents: "so where are you from?"
me: "San Diego"
agents: "woah, what are you doing up here?"
me: "I was visiting relatives and went to some Olympic events"
agent 1: "this is a rental car right?" (I owned the car and I'm sure they already knew that when they photoed the plate)
agent 2: "so how far away is San Diego?"
me: no, this is my car. San Diego is about 1400 miles away

They're just trying to catch you off guard with random, deeper questions. That honest body reaction when you answer those questions you need to think about is what they are after. That's why the first guy was asking what store they were going to. I'm sure the Canadian had a few stores in mind when they decided to go to the US, but he acted like an asshole instead.
 

SandEagle

Lifer
Aug 4, 2007
16,813
13
0
so pulling away from the officer when they try to grab your arm is considered an assault on the officer? fffffff
 

dwell

pics?
Oct 9, 1999
5,189
2
0
The Canadian dude was a troll. He deserved the treatment he got. If he don't like it stay the fuck out of the USA. Easy fix.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
I am asked strange things once in a blue moon. A month back was asked about my eye color and if I ever have problems coming back into the US.

Well, it's kind of a general questioning system, trying to find the dumb criminals.

Like a lie-detector test of sorts.

Obvious question with an obvious answer, to gauge how someone behaves while answering it. That is used as a baseline of sorts against further questions.
 

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,307
175
106
The Canadian guy may have been agitated but the officers are clearly on a power trip.

"What stores are you going to?"

What the hell does that matter? Apparently if someone doesn't have a shopping itenerary mapped out they're a terrorist?

Come on, folks. Seriously? We might as well fold up this country and give up to Osama bin Laden if we're going to get SO scared and terrified of EVERYONE and EVERYTHING.
 

KitMarlowe

Junior Member
May 19, 2010
1
0
0
There is a "smart" way to go through security: don't make waves; obey orders; get along. Clearly this guy didn't do the "smart" thing, and he didn't realize his mistake until it was too late.

That being said, many on this forum jump to the conclusion that the Canadian "deserved" what happened to him. That he "deserved" to get anally probed. One commenter actually said that
Being allowed to fist people is almost reason enough to join the police force.
WTF?

The stated intent of the border security is to make the country safe from external threats. There is a lowered right of privacy at a border checkpoint so that falls below what we expect from the 4th Amendment. Because of this lower standard, both states and agents have a greater degree of power and both take advantage.

The US government has moved its "border checkpoints" 50 miles away from the border so that they can stop your vehicle and search it without probable cause. It's true. You might wonder why the border checkpoint is 50 miles away from the border. You might say that such a checkpoint does nothing to protect our borders because the person and vehicle are already well within the country. And you would be right. But it does give the government the opportunity to search you and your vehicle without probable cause and that suits the government just fine.

Just as governments take advantage of power, so do people. The Canadian asked the second border agent if the agent honestly thought that the Canadian was a terrorist. After some quibbling, the agent answered, "no". Ladies and gentlemen, that is the end of the story. If the border agent honestly felt that the Canadian posed no threat, then the agent had no legitimate cause to detain, question or search the Canadian. And when the Canadian sues for false arrest, I predict that admission by the agent will be crucial.

While there is a lower standard of 4th Amendment protection at the border, and searches are exempted from the warrant requirement, they are still subject to the amendment's reasonableness requirement. Border Agents may conduct "routine" searches without any level of suspicion, while "nonroutine" searches must be supported by reasonable suspicion.
The agents admission that he didn't think that the Canadian was a terror threat is AN ADMISSION that he did not have a reasonable suspicion.

Having admitted that there was no legitimate reason to detain or search the Canadian, the only remaining reason was that which could be inferred by the previous conversation and by the comments of the posters on this thread: the border patrol agents were going to teach the Canadian a lesson. I've got news for them: it is not the job of the border patrol agents to teach lessons. The state cannot punish people unless there has been a decision by a court, and that is called due process.

"Are you going to shoot me?" is not a threat, except perhaps to an inflated ego. I don't think any court will assert that it is, especially when there is a recording showing the manner in which the "threat" was spoken.

For those of you who are still not convinced, and will assert that the Canadian "had it coming" because he disrespected the AUTHORITIIIIE of the agent, I pose this Hypothetical: How would you like it if you were in some 3rd World country and a Border Patrol Agent had it out for you merely because he thought you were being disrespectful? Would he then be entitled to arrest you AND YOUR WIFE. And have you both FINGERED in you private areas?

Let's please move beyond these childish notions of allowing random Agents to PUNISH strangers merely because Agents happen to have a Badge. All people deserve to be treated with dignity; If for no other reason, we should treat others with dignity because we expect to be treated with dignity.
 

syee

Senior member
Oct 6, 2001
827
0
76
For those of you that think the US border agent was on a power trip - how do you propose the questioning should have went? Do you think your approach would have weeded out potential threats any better than how the agent questioned?

I'm willing to bet these questions are prepared questions (as random as they sound) that they've been instructed to ask and look for specific reactions to them to weed out suspicious people. Looking at a person's criminal history, etc obviously doesn't work for terrorist threats (as you can see from the previous recent incidents) and they're looking to get more of a psychological advantage. Unfortunately, this also captures dumbasses who have no common sense.
 

Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
16,125
2
56
Absolutely.

There's no excuse for instigating an argument with an international visitor just because you're a shitty boarder guard with a tiny dick.

There's something to be said for being professional and level headed and he most certainly was not
 

Blintok

Senior member
Jan 30, 2007
433
0
0
I'm still not convinced that the "ordeal" really happened, but if it did, it was a set-up from the start, with the whole intent being to bait the border patrol and capture it on tape.

They should have tossed him in a Detroit jail cell for 72 hours for suspicion of anything. Let him make lots of new American friends...

same here. how did they manage to tape it? would not the guards find a recorder/mic on the person? they would presumably have been searched b4 being taken to a cell. Or was this a tape from the border service? i seem to recall near the end the guard saying all this is being recorded.
 

TXHokie

Platinum Member
Nov 16, 1999
2,557
173
106
There's a time and place for everything. This guy picked the wrong time and wrong place to challenge authority.
 
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