Lean Gains by Martin Berkhan

[z1ggy]

I just heard about this today on a youtube fitness channel I subscribe to. The more I thought about it, the more it started to make sense to me and I could understand how in theory it would work. For any one not familiar with this approach to dieting, see the link below:

http://www.leangains.com/2010/04/leangains-guide.html

In a way, I see this approach as a more biologically "natural" way to eat. Our ancestors did not eat 6 times a day like common convention now says we should eat. I'm guessing more often than not, they needed to eat a lot of food all at once, then spent a lot of time fasting in between hunts. Obviously, once we started to domesticate animals and start up more advanced civilizations, things changed...But biologically speaking, we are still very similar to our ancestors.

Has anybody tried this program before, or done any other type of intermittent fasting? The thing I worry about most is getting that "food coma" feeling since you load up on your calories less often, but with more volume.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

It's all just bro science really. I'm under the impression that no matter when or how often you eat it still just comes down to calories in vs. calories out.

 

[z1ggy]

It's all just bro science really. I'm under the impression that no matter when or how often you eat it still just comes down to calories in vs. calories out.

The main point I read was that while fasting for extended periods of time (say 16hrs) your HGH levels rise by quite a bit.

I watched a few youtube videos from people (with already muscular bodies) who tried it for a while and said it worked well for them when they wanted to lean up. Whether or not it works better than eating any other way wasn't really determined.

I don't know if I'd classify it as "bro science" per say, maybe more of a fad right now until more research is done. In general, there are many ways to lose weight, and gain muscle....But the overall rules still apply like you stated above.

 

[Zivic]

The main point I read was that while fasting for extended periods of time (say 16hrs) your HGH levels rise by quite a bit.

I watched a few youtube videos from people (with already muscular bodies) who tried it for a while and said it worked well for them when they wanted to lean up. Whether or not it works better than eating any other way wasn't really determined.

I don't know if I'd classify it as "bro science" per say, maybe more of a fad right now until more research is done. In general, there are many ways to lose weight, and gain muscle....But the overall rules still apply like you stated above.

I have read into this a bit. I don't care for the ancestor argument, we live longer than they did.

We, or at least, I, am looking to build a body that isn't really "natural". It isn't natural to carry the mass I do. In order to maintain this unnatural size, you have to do things, the average person, our ancestors included, didn't.

When it comes to meal timing and frequency, there are studies that show it makes minimal difference, if any. It is really a matter of the # of calories. I find eating more frequently to be advantageous. I have better control over the quantity I eat. I don't get hungry throughout the day. I have more energy than going through a fasted state.

I know that I can lift at least 10% more after a couple meals than I could going into the gym after 6-8 hrs of not eating.... yes, I know the BCAA trick, I use it for fasted cardio. That said, I know people that do just fine on a couple meals a day and working out without eating.

Really what I am getting at is that these types of techniques can work, but how much difference are they really going to make? You have every other aspect of your 'fitness' in check? if not, I can bet there are things that will be more beneficial to one's success.

When it comes to eating, there are plenty of ways to skin the same cat, but at the end of the day, it comes down to a calorie deficit vs surplus

 

[z1ggy]

I have read into this a bit. I don't care for the ancestor argument, we live longer than they did.

We, or at least, I, am looking to build a body that isn't really "natural". It isn't natural to carry the mass I do. In order to maintain this unnatural size, you have to do things, the average person, our ancestors included, didn't.

When it comes to meal timing and frequency, there are studies that show it makes minimal difference, if any. It is really a matter of the # of calories. I find eating more frequently to be advantageous. I have better control over the quantity I eat. I don't get hungry throughout the day. I have more energy than going through a fasted state.

I know that I can lift at least 10% more after a couple meals than I could going into the gym after 6-8 hrs of not eating.... yes, I know the BCAA trick, I use it for fasted cardio. That said, I know people that do just fine on a couple meals a day and working out without eating.

Really what I am getting at is that these types of techniques can work, but how much difference are they really going to make? You have every other aspect of your 'fitness' in check? if not, I can bet there are things that will be more beneficial to one's success.

When it comes to eating, there are plenty of ways to skin the same cat, but at the end of the day, it comes down to a calorie deficit vs surplus

Pretty much this. As long as I hit my macro's I don't see how IF'ing can hurt me really, other than maybe I could see lifting while in a fasted state to produce less strength. But, if this is the case I can modify the diet a bit and have 1 meal a few hours before, and just end my fast earlier in the day.

I'm just wanting to try something a bit different to see how it goes. I don't think it's really practical for all of life as on weekends I may go out at night or something, but it's an interesting concept. I'm going to try it out for a month and see how it goes. If I can stick with it (consistency is what's key right?) & get results, I will continue. If not.. no real diet changes need to be made and I can go back to my 5-6 smaller meals with my only fast being while I sleep.

 

[blackdogdeek]

If you do try it, can you post a log of meals and timing? I'd be interested to see your progress.

 

[Zivic]

Pretty much this. As long as I hit my macro's I don't see how IF'ing can hurt me really, other than maybe I could see lifting while in a fasted state to produce less strength. But, if this is the case I can modify the diet a bit and have 1 meal a few hours before, and just end my fast earlier in the day.

I'm just wanting to try something a bit different to see how it goes. I don't think it's really practical for all of life as on weekends I may go out at night or something, but it's an interesting concept. I'm going to try it out for a month and see how it goes. If I can stick with it (consistency is what's key right?) & get results, I will continue. If not.. no real diet changes need to be made and I can go back to my 5-6 smaller meals with my only fast being while I sleep.

whatever you do that you find easiest to get your food in, in the proper amounts. if you were at the top of your game and had yrs of clean eating in the 5+ a day meals mentality, then changed to this, I could see it causing changes (for better or worse). but like I posted, it really comes down to in vs out.

the consistency is key. if following a plan like this keeps you 'on plan' and you monitor your intake (talking grams and oz) then it can't be too bad.

 

[z1ggy]

If you do try it, can you post a log of meals and timing? I'd be interested to see your progress.

I'm currently on it as of technically last night. I'll post a high level of when I eat, when I lift, etc etc. If you'd like more info, you can PM me. I doubt the masses of ATF will really care.

Meal 1: 10am
-1/2 cup almonds and cup of tea

Lift (5x a week):
-Heavy lifts generally 5-8 reps, 4-8 sets depending how I feel. Then medium to high intensity plyo/cardio. Generally box jumps/jump rope with abs

Meal 2: Right after lift ~ 12:45pm
-2 scoops whey protein in 2 cups of unsweetened almond milk

Meal 3: ~3:30-3:45pm
-4 whole eggs with baked yam

Meal 4: 6pm
-4oz chicken, 3oz steak, 1 pork sausage link, 1/2 cup brown rice

Overall macros:
1800cal
165g protein
112g carb
77g fat

On my rest days, I would likely cut the yam and brown rice and add more meat for something closer to 180-200g protein and 40-50g carbs.

whatever you do that you find easiest to get your food in, in the proper amounts. if you were at the top of your game and had yrs of clean eating in the 5+ a day meals mentality, then changed to this, I could see it causing changes (for better or worse). but like I posted, it really comes down to in vs out.

the consistency is key. if following a plan like this keeps you 'on plan' and you monitor your intake (talking grams and oz) then it can't be too bad.

I'm def not on 'top' of my game. I'd say I've been clean eating for around 1yr, but my weight loss and body comp goals have stalled because of other things in life. Either I faltered because of not seeing results, or I slacked on the gym because of having to work more hours in the office.

 

[Zivic]

I'm currently on it as of technically last night. I'll post a high level of when I eat, when I lift, etc etc. If you'd like more info, you can PM me. I doubt the masses of ATF will really care.

Meal 1: 10am
-1/2 cup almonds and cup of tea

Lift (5x a week):
-Heavy lifts generally 5-8 reps, 4-8 sets depending how I feel. Then medium to high intensity plyo/cardio. Generally box jumps/jump rope with abs

Meal 2: Right after lift ~ 12:45pm
-2 scoops whey protein in 2 cups of unsweetened almond milk

Meal 3: ~3:30-3:45pm
-4 whole eggs with baked yam

Meal 4: 6pm
-4oz chicken, 3oz steak, 1 pork sausage link, 1/2 cup brown rice

Overall macros:
1800cal
165g protein
112g carb
77g fat

On my rest days, I would likely cut the yam and brown rice and add more meat for something closer to 180-200g protein and 40-50g carbs.



I'm def not on 'top' of my game. I'd say I've been clean eating for around 1yr, but my weight loss and body comp goals have stalled because of other things in life. Either I faltered because of not seeing results, or I slacked on the gym because of having to work more hours in the office.

Whats your bodyweight and a guess at body fat? 1800 seems low if you are doing cardio and lifting.... Unless you are pretty light.

 

[z1ggy]

Whats your bodyweight and a guess at body fat? 1800 seems low if you are doing cardio and lifting.... Unless you are pretty light.

BW= 185-187
BF = ~16%

BMR for my weight, height & age was around 1900cal. For light exercise 3-5days a week I believe the calc said maint. level would be around 2300cal. So to cut the ol' 3500cal/week, I am aiming at around 1800cal net per day. I actually eat closer to 1900cal on my lift days. I don't really think I am burning more than 100-150cal a day from lifts + cardio.

Do you think I need to eat more? Goal right now is to cut down to about 12% fat, then bulk up and assuming I'll gain maybe 1lb fat per every 2-3lb muscle I gain, I'd prob bulk up to around 15-16% fat again, then do a final cut down to 10% or so.

I don't really know the best way to do it, but ultimately I'd like to be around 10-11% body fat @ around 185lb.

Edit:
Fack I'm redoing my macro's and I'd been using the "sedentary" numbers -_- For "moderately active (1-3days/week exercise)" and "active (5days/week)" my cal needs would be around 2500 and 2750 respectively. So to lose 1lb/week I should actually be eating more like 2000-2300cals/day.

I'll prob cut the dif and call it ~2150 as I really don't feel like I'm doing "moderate" exercise 3-5 days a week. My lift is 20-25mins followed by a fairly intense plyo/cardio session for 5-10min. Idk, I figure a moderate work out would last at least an hour.

No wonder I haven't lost weight but have lost strength. I've probably been cutting like 7000 cals a week 0_0. Seeing as I only need to drop around 10-12lb, I'm guessing my body went into starvation mode.

 

[M0oG0oGaiPan]

nice benefit is you get one or two very large meals, which can be very satisfying. On the other hand it can be tough to eat that many calories at once if you're trying to eat nutritious foods.

here's a good overview of a few of the popular intermittent fasting programs.
http://www.precisionnutrition.com/intermittent-fasting

 

[Zivic]

BW= 185-187
BF = ~16%

BMR for my weight, height & age was around 1900cal. For light exercise 3-5days a week I believe the calc said maint. level would be around 2300cal. So to cut the ol' 3500cal/week, I am aiming at around 1800cal net per day. I actually eat closer to 1900cal on my lift days. I don't really think I am burning more than 100-150cal a day from lifts + cardio.

Do you think I need to eat more? Goal right now is to cut down to about 12% fat, then bulk up and assuming I'll gain maybe 1lb fat per every 2-3lb muscle I gain, I'd prob bulk up to around 15-16% fat again, then do a final cut down to 10% or so.

I don't really know the best way to do it, but ultimately I'd like to be around 10-11% body fat @ around 185lb.

Edit:
Fack I'm redoing my macro's and I'd been using the "sedentary" numbers -_- For "moderately active (1-3days/week exercise)" and "active (5days/week)" my cal needs would be around 2500 and 2750 respectively. So to lose 1lb/week I should actually be eating more like 2000-2300cals/day.

I'll prob cut the dif and call it ~2150 as I really don't feel like I'm doing "moderate" exercise 3-5 days a week. My lift is 20-25mins followed by a fairly intense plyo/cardio session for 5-10min. Idk, I figure a moderate work out would last at least an hour.

No wonder I haven't lost weight but have lost strength. I've probably been cutting like 7000 cals a week 0_0. Seeing as I only need to drop around 10-12lb, I'm guessing my body went into starvation mode.

I was thinking about 2000 on the low side... but you have to see how things go. those tools are only a guideline. You might have to cut more, or can stand to eat more.

I'm kind of against a 'bulking' stage, in the old school bro sense. everything I have come to learn is slow and steady wins the race. so if you are trying to add size, do it slowly to minimize the fat gained with it. 4% on a 200 lb frame is 8 lbs.... so if you went from 12-16% BF on your bulk, how much overall weight are you gaining?

You are going to have to monitor and make adjustments as needed. I would prefer not to add any fat, as it is much easier to keep it off, than it is to lose it after the fact.

 

[z1ggy]

I was thinking about 2000 on the low side... but you have to see how things go. those tools are only a guideline. You might have to cut more, or can stand to eat more.

I'm kind of against a 'bulking' stage, in the old school bro sense. everything I have come to learn is slow and steady wins the race. so if you are trying to add size, do it slowly to minimize the fat gained with it. 4% on a 200 lb frame is 8 lbs.... so if you went from 12-16% BF on your bulk, how much overall weight are you gaining?

You are going to have to monitor and make adjustments as needed. I would prefer not to add any fat, as it is much easier to keep it off, than it is to lose it after the fact.

I know. Metabolisms differ, etc etc. I am using myfitnesspal to track. I weigh myself daily every morning, and take weekly bf measurements, although my BF reads high because I am generally much more hydrated during my lift than I am when I weigh myself.

Well, if I cut down to 12% BF from 16%, that puts me at 179.5lb. Assuming I gain something like 2lb of fat per 3lb muscle (classic bulk) then at 16% fat, I'd weigh 190. To get to 10% fat, I'd need to cut about 12lb.. putting me right back where I started basically.

So yeah I get what you are saying. I'd prefer the slow and steady method, it's just hard mentally. Is it essentially just lifting heavy & carb loading on days you lift and then cutting back on days you don't? That's how I'd approach it anyway.

But for right now I just want a pure lean up. I don't care about gaining muscle/strength, just losing body fat while minimizing muscle loss. Since I'm not a total beginner, I assume the whole building muscle while burning fat notion is out the window.

 

[Zivic]

I know. Metabolisms differ, etc etc. I am using myfitnesspal to track. I weigh myself daily every morning, and take weekly bf measurements, although my BF reads high because I am generally much more hydrated during my lift than I am when I weigh myself.

Well, if I cut down to 12% BF from 16%, that puts me at 179.5lb. Assuming I gain something like 2lb of fat per 3lb muscle (classic bulk) then at 16% fat, I'd weigh 190. To get to 10% fat, I'd need to cut about 12lb.. putting me right back where I started basically.

So yeah I get what you are saying. I'd prefer the slow and steady method, it's just hard mentally. Is it essentially just lifting heavy & carb loading on days you lift and then cutting back on days you don't? That's how I'd approach it anyway.

But for right now I just want a pure lean up. I don't care about gaining muscle/strength, just losing body fat while minimizing muscle loss. Since I'm not a total beginner, I assume the whole building muscle while burning fat notion is out the window.

I had further to go in terms of weight loss than you do.. I was at a high of 268.. but generally was weighing 235-250 over the last few yrs. I dropped down to a low of 192.

I wanted to put that out there because at about 210-215, I had about 18.5" arms... over about 4 months I dipped below the 200 mark, but managed to put 3/4" on my arms. so was I bulking or cutting? I know that a situation like that isn't normal, nor is it sustainable in the long run, but it can be done.

I look at a legit 5 lbs of muscle as an optimistic year long goal, so put that into perspective. If you got that 5 lbs, and gained lets say 4 lbs of fat along with it, you are 9-10 lbs heavier, and only a couple % up bodyfat.... over the course of a year, I think that is doable. If you told me you wanted to do this over 12 weeks? Not sure my point here, kind of just thinking out loud...

but to your point of ending up back where you started, I think along the same lines, you gain the weight only to have to lose it again.

 

[z1ggy]

I had further to go in terms of weight loss than you do.. I was at a high of 268.. but generally was weighing 235-250 over the last few yrs. I dropped down to a low of 192.

I wanted to put that out there because at about 210-215, I had about 18.5" arms... over about 4 months I dipped below the 200 mark, but managed to put 3/4" on my arms. so was I bulking or cutting? I know that a situation like that isn't normal, nor is it sustainable in the long run, but it can be done.

I look at a legit 5 lbs of muscle as an optimistic year long goal, so put that into perspective. If you got that 5 lbs, and gained lets say 4 lbs of fat along with it, you are 9-10 lbs heavier, and only a couple % up bodyfat.... over the course of a year, I think that is doable. If you told me you wanted to do this over 12 weeks? Not sure my point here, kind of just thinking out loud...

but to your point of ending up back where you started, I think along the same lines, you gain the weight only to have to lose it again.

Wow, kudos to you then. I've seen your pics so that's impressive to say the least.

Hmm you make a good point here. I plan on always lifting heavy and doing compound lifts, so that'll never change. I also don't plan on doing cardio either..My cardio now is full body stuff like I've said, not pointless running on treadmills. It's only a quick 5-10mins and gets my heart rate up, hopefully upping my metabolism for the rest of the day.

So the big question then...Is the real goal then just body recomp? Slowly changing from 16%fat to 12% fat, but staying around the same weight? I think this is what you are really getting at no? If so, then I really should be eating right around maintenance cals, or maybe slightly below.

I agree, 5lb of pure muscle in 1 year for a non beginner is probably decent, although I think with my genetics (more of a stocky medium build) I think 8-10 is possible.

 

[Koing]

How long have you been dieting?

I'd recommend you up the cardio to say 20mins of stair masters.

My mate did lose a lot of weight, muscle and fat on something very similar to this.

Basically it works for people as they have a shorter window to eat and unless they are like myself, they can't put away 2.5k in 4-5hrs. Try it out.

I can't do 4-5 meals as the smaller meals just make me even more hungry. I just go with 2-3 meals.

Koing

 

[Zivic]

Wow, kudos to you then. I've seen your pics so that's impressive to say the least.

Hmm you make a good point here. I plan on always lifting heavy and doing compound lifts, so that'll never change. I also don't plan on doing cardio either..My cardio now is full body stuff like I've said, not pointless running on treadmills. It's only a quick 5-10mins and gets my heart rate up, hopefully upping my metabolism for the rest of the day.

So the big question then...Is the real goal then just body recomp? Slowly changing from 16%fat to 12% fat, but staying around the same weight? I think this is what you are really getting at no? If so, then I really should be eating right around maintenance cals, or maybe slightly below.

I agree, 5lb of pure muscle in 1 year for a non beginner is probably decent, although I think with my genetics (more of a stocky medium build) I think 8-10 is possible.

you said it correct, body recomp... that's what I would shoot for. If you are lifting and in the 190 range, you should have a good base. dial in the diet and you should be good to go.
I agree with Koing, i would up your cardio. Personally I used that as the throttle. I never wanted my calories to drop too low. not sure I had any days below 2500 over the last 6-8 months. if you are only doing 5-10 minutes, you are getting a bump in your metabalism, but maybe for a couple hrs at most. do it a few times a day and you might have something that is more beneficial

if you have the time, early fasted cardio (with a bcaa) worked well for me. 30 minutes at a brisk walk. otherwise, I was doing ~ 3 days a week of intervals after lifting. I stuck to 12 minutes. 1 minute hard, 30 seconds recovery usually on the stair mill. having a couple times in the day that I raised my activity level is what I think is what helped most.

I am curious how you would feel going through the fasting. I would think I would get to a point where all I would do is being making a mental list of everything I would binge on. I could put down 2000+ calories in a single sitting especially if there was a countdown of sorts till I could do it. I don't think I would do well on that type of meal timing. heck, sometimes I have to hold back and barely make 2 hrs between meals. Every day is different though, some days 4-5 hrs without food is nothing. some days I want to eat again after 1.

overall I think if you have a goal in mind, have a realistic plan how to get there, and are self motivated, it is just a matter of doing it. You seem to have those in order

 

[z1ggy]

How long have you been dieting?

I'd recommend you up the cardio to say 20mins of stair masters.

My mate did lose a lot of weight, muscle and fat on something very similar to this.

Basically it works for people as they have a shorter window to eat and unless they are like myself, they can't put away 2.5k in 4-5hrs. Try it out.

I can't do 4-5 meals as the smaller meals just make me even more hungry. I just go with 2-3 meals.

Koing

I really put my mind to eating better since January. I had a few minor bumps along the way as far as getting in the gym goes because of other team sport activities, injury, etc..But my diet has always been okay. However, I never really lost much weight. I think I started this year out at like.. 192-193 and am now 187-188lb, body fat probably dropped 2% or something like that.

Problem is, I don't have 20 minutes right after a work out and by the time I get home from work, I am generally too tired or unmotivated to work out again (I'm working out in the middle of the day, around noon).

you said it correct, body recomp... that's what I would shoot for. If you are lifting and in the 190 range, you should have a good base. dial in the diet and you should be good to go.
I agree with Koing, i would up your cardio. Personally I used that as the throttle. I never wanted my calories to drop too low. not sure I had any days below 2500 over the last 6-8 months. if you are only doing 5-10 minutes, you are getting a bump in your metabalism, but maybe for a couple hrs at most. do it a few times a day and you might have something that is more beneficial

if you have the time, early fasted cardio (with a bcaa) worked well for me. 30 minutes at a brisk walk. otherwise, I was doing ~ 3 days a week of intervals after lifting. I stuck to 12 minutes. 1 minute hard, 30 seconds recovery usually on the stair mill. having a couple times in the day that I raised my activity level is what I think is what helped most.

I am curious how you would feel going through the fasting. I would think I would get to a point where all I would do is being making a mental list of everything I would binge on. I could put down 2000+ calories in a single sitting especially if there was a countdown of sorts till I could do it. I don't think I would do well on that type of meal timing. heck, sometimes I have to hold back and barely make 2 hrs between meals. Every day is different though, some days 4-5 hrs without food is nothing. some days I want to eat again after 1.

overall I think if you have a goal in mind, have a realistic plan how to get there, and are self motivated, it is just a matter of doing it. You seem to have those in order

Mornings suck so far, no denying that. My stomach hurts so bad and all I can think about it eating food. However, I did fast yesterday 100% to a T of the plan. After I got through most of the day, I had only had around 1300 cals by like 3pm and something like 1700 by 8pm. It wasn't too bad once I actually got my first meal in. I did feel a little bit odd after my lift, not sure if that's because I ate a much larger meal right after so my insulin levels spiked more than usual, or if it was dehydration... who knows.

As of right now though this is how I am lifting WRT the cardio you just mentioned:
Monday - Legs & Forearm, 10 sets of: knee to elbow plank, pushup position knee to elbow, half burpee, mountain climber (I can't even finish 10 sets yet actually, it's that hard nonstop).

Tues - Chest, then 5 sets of: 1min jump rope, 20reps of abs, 50 mountain climbers

Weds - Back, then Burpee into plyo jump, abs, High Knees, each for 30 seconds

Thurs - Shoulder & Tri's, then 10 reps of front squat (light weight), burpees, for 10 mins non stop

Fri - Biceps then plyo "long jump" over a mat, do a burpee, plyo jump back over then do 5 side ab crunches per side for 6 sets.

Also Zivic, I found this youtube vid last night.. Was just short but it kind of demotivated me a bit on this whole body comp thing. I'll have to find it again and send you the link, but basically it was some Dr. Israetel talking about how basically body recomp is not possible, and the only way to recomp, is through distinct bulking & cutting phases. It was all just high level stuff, no real science was stated as to why. His explanation was kind of, "I say distinct phases works.. And so do the big people. Are you big and jacked? No? Then stfu." That's kind of the impression I got.

Sorry this was so long. If you read, thanks.

 

[Zivic]

I really put my mind to eating better since January. I had a few minor bumps along the way as far as getting in the gym goes because of other team sport activities, injury, etc..But my diet has always been okay. However, I never really lost much weight. I think I started this year out at like.. 192-193 and am now 187-188lb, body fat probably dropped 2% or something like that.

Problem is, I don't have 20 minutes right after a work out and by the time I get home from work, I am generally too tired or unmotivated to work out again (I'm working out in the middle of the day, around noon).

if you upped your cardio, you would be amazed at the difference it would make. if you are dropping weight by diet alone, adding in some more cardio will be a nice catalyst.. should help you make gainz in the direction you are trying to go



Mornings suck so far, no denying that. My stomach hurts so bad and all I can think about it eating food. However, I did fast yesterday 100% to a T of the plan. After I got through most of the day, I had only had around 1300 cals by like 3pm and something like 1700 by 8pm. It wasn't too bad once I actually got my first meal in. I did feel a little bit odd after my lift, not sure if that's because I ate a much larger meal right after so my insulin levels spiked more than usual, or if it was dehydration... who knows.

As of right now though this is how I am lifting WRT the cardio you just mentioned:
Monday - Legs & Forearm, 10 sets of: knee to elbow plank, pushup position knee to elbow, half burpee, mountain climber (I can't even finish 10 sets yet actually, it's that hard nonstop).

Tues - Chest, then 5 sets of: 1min jump rope, 20reps of abs, 50 mountain climbers

Weds - Back, then Burpee into plyo jump, abs, High Knees, each for 30 seconds

Thurs - Shoulder & Tri's, then 10 reps of front squat (light weight), burpees, for 10 mins non stop

Fri - Biceps then plyo "long jump" over a mat, do a burpee, plyo jump back over then do 5 side ab crunches per side for 6 sets.

that sounds way too functional for me... I do straight stair mill intervals, brisk walk on a treadmill and when I get bored of them, I use my elliptical in both manners of cardio

Also Zivic, I found this youtube vid last night.. Was just short but it kind of demotivated me a bit on this whole body comp thing. I'll have to find it again and send you the link, but basically it was some Dr. Israetel talking about how basically body recomp is not possible, and the only way to recomp, is through distinct bulking & cutting phases. It was all just high level stuff, no real science was stated as to why. His explanation was kind of, "I say distinct phases works.. And so do the big people. Are you big and jacked? No? Then stfu." That's kind of the impression I got.

Sorry this was so long. If you read, thanks.

science is good and all, but as has been discussed in previous threads, bro science... what has actually been tried/used/shown to work has plenty of merit when it comes to fitness/BB/lifting. I followed bb on and off since mid 90's. the one thing I see, beyond them getting bigger and bigger is that the top level guys stay in better shape year round than they used to. They try to keep away from the larger swings in weight... and I take that as they get away from these big bulks and cuts. Sure they are going through ups and downs, but it reverts back to my slow and steady mentality.

I would say do a cut to get to bodyfat/lean level you like, then slowly build from there. just never let the bulk get away from you.

 

[z1ggy]

science is good and all, but as has been discussed in previous threads, bro science... what has actually been tried/used/shown to work has plenty of merit when it comes to fitness/BB/lifting. I followed bb on and off since mid 90's. the one thing I see, beyond them getting bigger and bigger is that the top level guys stay in better shape year round than they used to. They try to keep away from the larger swings in weight... and I take that as they get away from these big bulks and cuts. Sure they are going through ups and downs, but it reverts back to my slow and steady mentality.

I would say do a cut to get to bodyfat/lean level you like, then slowly build from there. just never let the bulk get away from you.

How long and at what pace do you walk?? I could probably still do my post lift thing, but walk my dog around the block briskly everyday to get in some extra cardio. I'd guess you probably do at least 30 mins every day?

I agree. These science guys have been trying for 40 years to understand how to get big, how to get lean, etc etc. I mean look at all the diet fads and countless supplements on the market. What matters is what works...Who cares how and if it has some finite structure. At the end of the day, eat healthy and lift heavy. That's what I'm really committing to now and I know I'll get results.

That's why I always argue against taking tons of shit b/c Arnold was still huge even before he juiced. At age 17 the bastard was deadlifting a crap ton already. Granted the guy has genetics, that only counts for so much.

Thanks for all the replies.

I'll probably update this thread at some point after a few weeks of doing intermittent fasting. As of right now, it's kind of tough on my body as far as how I feel hour-to-hour, but overall I feel fine. Right after meals I feel kind of meh, but I assume that's due to high carbs all at once instead of it spread out.

 

[darkxshade]

I've been sorta doing intermittent fasting for about over 4 years now. By sorta, I mean I don't do the 16/8. I pretty much just don't eat the from the time I wake up until I get home from work and prepare my meal which is around 7-8pm. So my window is only about 4-5 hours. I do drink 1-2 cups of coffee(black) a day.

In terms of fat loss and getting lean, it does work to a degree but not nearly as effective as it's hyped up to be. Of all the method of fat loss I've tried, Keto is the most effective but it was a miserable experience and quite frankly not worth the effort.

Intermittent fasting however has so many advantages that it's something I've decided to stick with indefinitely and here's why:

-Once you're adapted to this diet, it's a great feeling, you don't get hunger pangs anymore. I seriously don't remember the last time I was actually hungry or starving.

-Gained extra time for sleep instead of finding/preparing a meal for breakfast. Gain an hour during lunch break to do whatever I want.

-I'm more regular, every morning without fail, 30 mins after my coffee...

-I generally feel better and clear minded and focused. When I used to eat breakfast and lunch, I'd be in like a comatose state.

-Saved a ton of money on food... my monthly food bill is under $200. I prepare my own dinner though which helps.

-And when I eat, I freakin chow down. I don't think or worry about portion size, I just bury my face in it and damn it's a satisfying meal... everyday.

-Don't have to think about what to eat or plan my meals as much. So much less stress when you only have to think about one meal.

-Your colleagues at work will think you're some freak. No one at work has ever seen me chew on anything and there's like a running pool on when I'll eat my first meal at the workplace.

There's a few more things that slip my mind but the benefits of the diet is just too awesome for me to give up and it mostly has not much to do with fat loss and I'm ok with that.

 

[z1ggy]

I've been sorta doing intermittent fasting for about over 4 years now. By sorta, I mean I don't do the 16/8. I pretty much just don't eat the from the time I wake up until I get home from work and prepare my meal which is around 7-8pm. So my window is only about 4-5 hours. I do drink 1-2 cups of coffee(black) a day.

In terms of fat loss and getting lean, it does work to a degree but not nearly as effective as it's hyped up to be. Of all the method of fat loss I've tried, Keto is the most effective but it was a miserable experience and quite frankly not worth the effort.

Intermittent fasting however has so many advantages that it's something I've decided to stick with indefinitely and here's why:

-Once you're adapted to this diet, it's a great feeling, you don't get hunger pangs anymore. I seriously don't remember the last time I was actually hungry or starving.

-Gained extra time for sleep instead of finding/preparing a meal for breakfast. Gain an hour during lunch break to do whatever I want.

-I'm more regular, every morning without fail, 30 mins after my coffee...

-I generally feel better and clear minded and focused. When I used to eat breakfast and lunch, I'd be in like a comatose state.

-Saved a ton of money on food... my monthly food bill is under $200. I prepare my own dinner though which helps.

-And when I eat, I freakin chow down. I don't think or worry about portion size, I just bury my face in it and damn it's a satisfying meal... everyday.

-Don't have to think about what to eat or plan my meals as much. So much less stress when you only have to think about one meal.

-Your colleagues at work will think you're some freak. No one at work has ever seen me chew on anything and there's like a running pool on when I'll eat my first meal at the workplace.

There's a few more things that slip my mind but the benefits of the diet is just too awesome for me to give up and it mostly has not much to do with fat loss and I'm ok with that.

Well good to hear that you are liking it!! I tend to think that it won't make much of a difference whether I'm eating 3 large meals or 6 small to medium sized ones. Every day new papers coming out saying 3 is best.. then next day they'll switch back and say 6 is best. It really just comes down to eating less to burn fat, and more to build muscle.

This is only day 3 for me, so I am still feeling pretty crappy in the mornings. Also, after my first big meal, I tend to feel sort of shitty. I'm guessing my body is just not used to going 16 hours with out food, then getting bombarded with almost 1000 calories and like 50g protein and like, 60g carbs. I was also taking a pre-workout supplement that I got for free, so I might stop taking that to see if maybe that's the cause. F all those pre lift supplements...None of them work anymore and generally make me feel jittery and dizzy.

 

[momeNt]

Different people have different tendencies when it comes to eating. I personally feel miserable eating many small meals throughout the day, I don't like how I feel after eating breakfast, even if it is healthy, compared to skipping breakfast and eating a larger lunch and larger dinner. I even feel good downing 2800 healthy (read: not loaded with glazes or grease) calories in a single meal and fasting for 24 hours after that.

The most hungry I feel at lunch time is after eating a small breakfast, like oatmeal and a banana, if I skip breakfast I can work up until lunch time and not have my stomach tell me it's time to eat again. Not everybody works that way, but if you do, I think reading his stuff will work well for you.

 

[z1ggy]

Different people have different tendencies when it comes to eating. I personally feel miserable eating many small meals throughout the day, I don't like how I feel after eating breakfast, even if it is healthy, compared to skipping breakfast and eating a larger lunch and larger dinner. I even feel good downing 2800 healthy (read: not loaded with glazes or grease) calories in a single meal and fasting for 24 hours after that.

The most hungry I feel at lunch time is after eating a small breakfast, like oatmeal and a banana, if I skip breakfast I can work up until lunch time and not have my stomach tell me it's time to eat again. Not everybody works that way, but if you do, I think reading his stuff will work well for you.

I think I'm slowly getting used to it. I eat dinner now around 7-8pm. I didn't really wake up hungry this morning, but by 730 or 8am I was. Hungry pains lasted until around 10am, at which point it stopped hurting, but I had my first meal at 11:30. Did a lift then ate again at 12:45, and am now having meal #3 as I type this. Last meal planned to be eaten around 7:30pm.

So far three straight days of clean eating, not a single molecule of processed food has gone in my mouth

Wait shit, I had a Starburst. DAMNIT >_<

 

[Koing]

I really put my mind to eating better since January. I had a few minor bumps along the way as far as getting in the gym goes because of other team sport activities, injury, etc..But my diet has always been okay. However, I never really lost much weight. I think I started this year out at like.. 192-193 and am now 187-188lb, body fat probably dropped 2% or something like that.

Problem is, I don't have 20 minutes right after a work out and by the time I get home from work, I am generally too tired or unmotivated to work out again (I'm working out in the middle of the day, around noon).

I would re evaluate what you are eating.

There is no way you should have only lost 5-6lbs in 6months. But at least you realise you have had set backs with your training. Eating alone should have helped IMO. Do you have your daily and weekly average weigh ins? This is VERY important IMO. If your weight doesn't trend down over 3 weeks something is wrong with your eating. I definitely f0cked up a few times but the overall trend was always going down when I ate properly.

I'd cut short 2 of your weight sessions to make sure you can do the 20minutes of cardio.

I'm with Zivic in that you should keep dieting down until you are happier with your level of leanness then slowly bulk back up. Only when you understand food you should look in to slowly bulking.

Koing