Lean Gains by Martin Berkhan

[z1ggy]

I would re evaluate what you are eating.

There is no way you should have only lost 5-6lbs in 6months. But at least you realise you have had set backs with your training. Eating alone should have helped IMO. Do you have your daily and weekly average weigh ins? This is VERY important IMO. If your weight doesn't trend down over 3 weeks something is wrong with your eating. I definitely f0cked up a few times but the overall trend was always going down when I ate properly.

I'd cut short 2 of your weight sessions to make sure you can do the 20minutes of cardio.

I'm with Zivic in that you should keep dieting down until you are happier with your level of leanness then slowly bulk back up. Only when you understand food you should look in to slowly bulking.

Koing

I am keeping track using myfitnesspal. I was only eating 1800cals a day for a long time, which may have actually been too low and perhaps my body was fighting the weight loss. I have now actually upped my cals to around 2100 which should be 400 cals below my daily need (Im account for 100cals burned in the gym at a bare min each day).

Well, I looked back and last Feb I weighed 204 at unknown body fat. I weighed 187 this morning... So at least I averaged 1lb per month over the last year. I know that's really slow and I can do better, but overall long term I am losing.

I'll see where this current diet gets me in 4 weeks. I am weighing in everyday after my lift to get a trend going. In 4 weeks from now I am hoping to see the scale down at 185.

 

[classy]

If I could chime in, I know we bumped heads about diet before, but I am going add my 2 cent that I think will help. Plain and simple that is way too much fat and too much fatty protein for that amount of calories. Your first meal especially before training if you are going to eat, should be a clean high protein meal. Fat will slow your metabolism, I don't think those almonds in the morning are doing you any justice. I would drop the almond milk too probably. Find a protein source if you don't want to add a protein powder to something with less fat, like fat free milk or egg whites.

For comparison I will consume twice as many calories, but only consume 30-35 more grams of fat. Considering you are going large amounts of time between eating is slowing your metabolism even more. You need more calories and more fat free protein.

I would change the first meal to something like egg whites or yogurt, fat free protein, nothing less than 40 grams. The tea is good .

The meal right after lifting, no almond milk, add a 3rd scoop of protein, just water.

The other meals are fine, I have to believe you need a few more hundred calories a day too. You are not a big dude, but you are not a small man either, 1800, even 2000 seems to little to me.

 

[Koing]

I am keeping track using myfitnesspal. I was only eating 1800cals a day for a long time, which may have actually been too low and perhaps my body was fighting the weight loss. I have now actually upped my cals to around 2100 which should be 400 cals below my daily need (Im account for 100cals burned in the gym at a bare min each day).

Well, I looked back and last Feb I weighed 204 at unknown body fat. I weighed 187 this morning... So at least I averaged 1lb per month over the last year. I know that's really slow and I can do better, but overall long term I am losing.

I'll see where this current diet gets me in 4 weeks. I am weighing in everyday after my lift to get a trend going. In 4 weeks from now I am hoping to see the scale down at 185.

Yeah it'll be interesting to see what upping your calories does to you as well as adding n an extra 15min of cardio on 2 of your training days does to your weight loss. 3 weeks is plenty of time to see weight loss IMO. Do not wait until the 4th week.

Koing

 

[Saint Nick]

If I could chime in, I know we bumped heads about diet before, but I am going add my 2 cent that I think will help. Plain and simple that is way too much fat and too much fatty protein for that amount of calories. Your first meal especially before training if you are going to eat, should be a clean high protein meal. Fat will slow your metabolism, I don't think those almonds in the morning are doing you any justice. I would drop the almond milk too probably. Find a protein source if you don't want to add a protein powder to something with less fat, like fat free milk or egg whites.

For comparison I will consume twice as many calories, but only consume 30-35 more grams of fat. Considering you are going large amounts of time between eating is slowing your metabolism even more. You need more calories and more fat free protein.

I would change the first meal to something like egg whites or yogurt, fat free protein, nothing less than 40 grams. The tea is good .

The meal right after lifting, no almond milk, add a 3rd scoop of protein, just water.

The other meals are fine, I have to believe you need a few more hundred calories a day too. You are not a big dude, but you are not a small man either, 1800, even 2000 seems to little to me.

I don't mean any disrespect, but isn't the timing and type of meals (within reason) irrelevant in the context of getting stronger/building muscle as long as you hit specific calorie and macro requirements for the day?

 

[z1ggy]

If I could chime in, I know we bumped heads about diet before, but I am going add my 2 cent that I think will help. Plain and simple that is way too much fat and too much fatty protein for that amount of calories. Your first meal especially before training if you are going to eat, should be a clean high protein meal. Fat will slow your metabolism, I don't think those almonds in the morning are doing you any justice. I would drop the almond milk too probably. Find a protein source if you don't want to add a protein powder to something with less fat, like fat free milk or egg whites.

For comparison I will consume twice as many calories, but only consume 30-35 more grams of fat. Considering you are going large amounts of time between eating is slowing your metabolism even more. You need more calories and more fat free protein.

I would change the first meal to something like egg whites or yogurt, fat free protein, nothing less than 40 grams. The tea is good .

The meal right after lifting, no almond milk, add a 3rd scoop of protein, just water.

The other meals are fine, I have to believe you need a few more hundred calories a day too. You are not a big dude, but you are not a small man either, 1800, even 2000 seems to little to me.

The almond thing is temporary. I am going to eventually going to switch to just some BCAA's before my lift with water.

But okay I can take the almond milk out. I only use it to give my protein shakes a touch of flavor and thickness. They are kind of gross with just water. My almond milk is the unsweetened stuff so it's only like 20-40 cals a serving.

I'm also lead to believe that my metab won't really slow down hour to hour a whole lot. If I did not eat for days on end, or slowly lowered my cals a significant amount, then it would slow down. But I think I recall seeing papers saying metabolism hour to hour does not change very much over that persons normal level. I could be wrong though.

Yeah it'll be interesting to see what upping your calories does to you as well as adding n an extra 15min of cardio on 2 of your training days does to your weight loss. 3 weeks is plenty of time to see weight loss IMO. Do not wait until the 4th week.

Koing

Yeah I plan on doing a second cardio session a few days a week when I get home from work, and on weekends I'll probably go for more hikes/jogs now that it's summer.

I also kayak a lot with my girlfriend which is a crazy good work out when we have races down the lake.

Thanks for all your input. I am def seeing some results just after a few days I think. Maybe it's placebo but I feel more energetic actually during my work outs. Also, oddly enough, I kind of like eating 3 large meals. Eating a tiny little thing of chicken and veggies kind of sucks. As a dude, I can really appreciate just tossing down like 4 pieces of chicken, a bunch of rice and broc. It's kind of awesome.

 

[classy]

I don't mean any disrespect, but isn't the timing and type of meals (within reason) irrelevant in the context of getting stronger/building muscle as long as you hit specific calorie and macro requirements for the day?

No, it makes a difference

 

[classy]

I don't mean any disrespect, but isn't the timing and type of meals (within reason) irrelevant in the context of getting stronger/building muscle as long as you hit specific calorie and macro requirements for the day?

I can tell you in one respect at least, the difference. Look at the dude's belly who gorges all his food in 2-3 large meals vs the dude who eats smaller 6 meals. The 2-3 meal dude usually has a poked out belly. There is a lot of science, but when it comes to building strength and a good body, you don't have to reinvent the wheel.

 

[classy]

I don't mean any disrespect, but isn't the timing and type of meals (within reason) irrelevant in the context of getting stronger/building muscle as long as you hit specific calorie and macro requirements for the day?

This is an article quoting Arnold himself

Many meals a day. "You see something, you eat it," said another of my bodybuilding friends to someone who'd asked how he got that big. "You eat all the time." Arnold knew three squares a day wasn't going to cut it, no matter what the FDA was championing. And it wasn't just the fact that he needed 5,000 calories per day to maintain his size. They knew about the importance of insulin spikes, digestion times, and other variables that could be helped by eating more frequently. Smaller meals allowed you to train harder. The harder you could train, the better the results, provided you had enough fuel in the tank.

Protein shakes. Even my athletic friends thought I was weird for the concoctions I'd throw into a blender in high school. But the boys down at Gold's Gym said the best way to get enough nutrients was to buy bulk protein and make shakes, so I immediately jumped on the bandwagon. These were often clumpy and none too tasty, a far cry from oh, say, Beachbody's Whey Protein Powder shakes. We, however, did what Arnold did and would have happily quaffed down motor oil if someone had told us it would make us strong.
- See more at: http://www.howtobefit.com/body-building-nutrition.htm#sthash.eCqLaCgp.dpuf

Another article quoting Arnold

http://www.livestrong.com/article/3...-schwarzenegger-diet-in-bodybuilding-periods/

Stan Efferding Diet, loaded with Protein shakes

MEAL 1
4 large whole eggs
1/4 cup Cream of Rice
4 oz New York steak
Shake
20 g whey protein
3 tbsp light-tasting olive oil
8 g fiber
2 cups water

MEAL 2
8 oz steak
1 cup cooked white rice with
1 large whole egg
Shake
20 g whey protein
3 tbsp lighttasting olive oil
1 cup water
(flavored with Crystal Light)

MEAL 3
8 oz chicken
1 cup cooked white rice with
1 large whole egg
Shake (made as in meal #1)

WORKOUT
Drink glutamine while training

MEAL 4
Postworkout shake
50 g whey protein isolate
3 tbsp light-tasting olive oil
2 scoops waxy maze

MEAL 5
12 oz ground beef, 95% lean
4 oz spaghetti
1/2 cup spaghetti sauce

MEAL 6
8 oz steak
1 cup cooked white rice with
1 large whole egg
Shake (made as in meal #1)

MEAL 7
1 bagel
2 tbsp peanut butter
Shake (made as in meal #2)

TOTALS

6,556 calories
436 g protein
381 g carbs
362 g fat

I could go on and on.........................follow those who actually have climbed the mountain rather than those still looking at it.

 

[z1ggy]

^ I tend to agree for muscle building, I think you HAVE to eat many times during the day. It just comes out of the numbers. If you need 5kcals, there's no way you could only eat three times.

The thing is, just do what works, screw the science. These guys have been going on and on now for decades in regards to how many times a day to eat, etc. If you can slam down 5kcals in 3-4 meals and it gets you big, does it really matter if you'd still get big on 6-7 meals???

I think right now for myself though, I can stick with 3-4 meals. I'm only taking in 2100-2300cals right now on a cut. Once I reach my goal and I can start to put more muscle on, I can up my cals, and spread my meals out.

 

[Zivic]

No, it makes a difference

in the regards to the majority of people on this forum, it really doesn't. how many people here actually weigh their food every meal, every day? maybe 2 or 3? if you aren't weighing/measuring/prepping every single meal you eat, the timing isn't going to keep you from reaching your goals

if you want to literally be a champion, you bet your @ss it does.

 

[Pantlegz]

This is an article quoting Arnold himself



Another article quoting Arnold

http://www.livestrong.com/article/3...-schwarzenegger-diet-in-bodybuilding-periods/

Stan Efferding Diet, loaded with Protein shakes

MEAL 1
4 large whole eggs
1/4 cup Cream of Rice
4 oz New York steak
Shake
20 g whey protein
3 tbsp light-tasting olive oil
8 g fiber
2 cups water

MEAL 2
8 oz steak
1 cup cooked white rice with
1 large whole egg
Shake
20 g whey protein
3 tbsp lighttasting olive oil
1 cup water
(flavored with Crystal Light)

MEAL 3
8 oz chicken
1 cup cooked white rice with
1 large whole egg
Shake (made as in meal #1)

WORKOUT
Drink glutamine while training

MEAL 4
Postworkout shake
50 g whey protein isolate
3 tbsp light-tasting olive oil
2 scoops waxy maze

MEAL 5
12 oz ground beef, 95% lean
4 oz spaghetti
1/2 cup spaghetti sauce

MEAL 6
8 oz steak
1 cup cooked white rice with
1 large whole egg
Shake (made as in meal #1)

MEAL 7
1 bagel
2 tbsp peanut butter
Shake (made as in meal #2)

TOTALS

6,556 calories
436 g protein
381 g carbs
362 g fat

I could go on and on.........................follow those who actually have climbed the mountain rather than those still looking at it.

If you got the same macros/calories and quality of food but did it in 2 meals rather than 6-7 what would it matter? I can easily get 5-6k in with 2 meals and maybe a snack. I typically eat my first meal between 12-1 and the last around 6-7pm with no calories in between aside from BCAA's in the morning. I do snack on veggies a lot between meals and will do a shake with mostly veggies to help with fiber/carb intake just because they're the most difficult to get in, in such a short feeding window.

 

[Koing]

in the regards to the majority of people on this forum, it really doesn't. how many people here actually weigh their food every meal, every day? maybe 2 or 3? if you aren't weighing/measuring/prepping every single meal you eat, the timing isn't going to keep you from reaching your goals

if you want to literally be a champion, you bet your @ss it does.

I literally weighed 99.9% of everything I ate for 7months. I'd weigh sauces, peanut butter getting to the gram of what I needed for my macros. I'd break rice cakes in to half to get the required carbs down to a T. I'd count and weigh almonds, cashewnuts, weigh my apple, pear etc. Anything I ate I weighed lol.

But yeah not many people weigh everything and it's good to do it for at least one or two weeks to understand the macros of food.

I didn't bother with timing though. I just ate to my normal schedule.

Koing

 

[momeNt]

The thinking that your body can only process 30 or less grams of protein at a given time is insane and one of the myths that needs to be more popularly dispelled.

Your body hasn't even finished getting the nutrients from a 600 calorie meal 5 hours after being eaten....

source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10331398

Please people! Use your heads!

 

[classy]

If you got the same macros/calories and quality of food but did it in 2 meals rather than 6-7 what would it matter? I can easily get 5-6k in with 2 meals and maybe a snack. I typically eat my first meal between 12-1 and the last around 6-7pm with no calories in between aside from BCAA's in the morning. I do snack on veggies a lot between meals and will do a shake with mostly veggies to help with fiber/carb intake just because they're the most difficult to get in, in such a short feeding window.

Damn near every single powerhouse that has walked this planet diet consisted of multiple meals a day, not 2. Damn near every last single one. So were they all stupid or didn't know it didn't matter? Regardless of the type of weight sport as well. If weights was involved multiple meals a day was or is more than likely the staple of their diet.

 

[Pantlegz]

Damn near every single powerhouse that has walked this planet diet consisted of multiple meals a day, not 2. Damn near every last single one. So were they all stupid or didn't know it didn't matter? Regardless of the type of weight sport as well. If weights was involved multiple meals a day was or is more than likely the staple of their diet.

is there any science to back it up though?

 

[z1ggy]

is there any science to back it up though?

This is the whole point to what I am doing now. Did these guys like Arnold eat 7 times a day simply because it's easier on their stomachs to toss down 5kcal in 7 meals, or was there literally a scientific reason proven by many studies to show this. I feel like for every 20 studies that show there is a scientific reason for it, there's 10 to say there isn't.

For normal guys like me who just want to get in the best shape of their life, look really good and be strong, I honestly don't think it matters. If you want to be the next Arnold or Ronnie, then by all means, it might matter for you.

Personally, when I do go back to slow bulking, I plan to eat more meals. It's only because I don't think it's possible for a smaller-ish guy like me to cram down 3kcal in 2 meals. We will see.

 

[classy]

This is the whole point to what I am doing now. Did these guys like Arnold eat 7 times a day simply because it's easier on their stomachs to toss down 5kcal in 7 meals, or was there literally a scientific reason proven by many studies to show this. I feel like for every 20 studies that show there is a scientific reason for it, there's 10 to say there isn't.

For normal guys like me who just want to get in the best shape of their life, look really good and be strong, I honestly don't think it matters. If you want to be the next Arnold or Ronnie, then by all means, it might matter for you.

Personally, when I do go back to slow bulking, I plan to eat more meals. It's only because I don't think it's possible for a smaller-ish guy like me to cram down 3kcal in 2 meals. We will see.

Its not about being Arnold or being swole, lol. Its as simple as this. How can you want to be in the best shape of your life, but not follow advice on training and diet that has been proven without doubt to be successful? History is very solid here on what works. I don't discount some of the newer thought lines, but I don't see many impressive in shape people who are following many of these ideas.

 

[momeNt]

Its not about being Arnold or being swole, lol. Its as simple as this. How can you want to be in the best shape of your life, but not follow advice on training and diet that has been proven without doubt to be successful? History is very solid here on what works. I don't discount some of the newer thought lines, but I don't see many impressive in shape people who are following many of these ideas.

It's always about being swole.

 

[z1ggy]

So it's been about two full weeks of doing IF'ing (even lifting while still fasted) and I think it's going really well. I am down about 2.5lb overall, and my lifts have not suffered one bit. In fact, I starting carb and calorie loading on my heavy days (legs, chest & back) and I'm actually gaining strength, while cutting calories overall on a weekly basis.

Still have no trained my body to be used to it though. It's mental torture waiting until 1230 to eat everyday. It is kind of nice though to have my last meal about 1 hour before bed. I have a nice full feeling in my stomach. Still wake up hungry though...Hopefully in another two weeks my hunger pangs will go away.

 

[blackdogdeek]

Thanks for the update, OP.

 

[z1ggy]

Almost done with week 3. Here are some more thoughts:

1) I'm still hungry as hell in the mornings. It gets better as the day progresses toward my eventual work out at noon and my meals following, but it still sucks.

2) IF is very hard to do if you actually have a social life. If you ever go out with friends to dinner/bar etc, it's nearly impossible to not consume calories outside of the eating window. This could be why my body still gets hungry. I'm probably resetting my fasting clock on the weekends.

3) My strength is continuing to improve each week. Which I find interesting in a way. I can't tell if it's because I still wasn't at my highest potential to begin with, or if IF is actually improving my hormone levels and boosting my strength a bit.

4) Eating is amazing. It does suck not being able to have a traditional breakfast or each up until around 1pm, but let me tell you...That first meal is freaking glorious. It's almost the same satisfaction I get from an orgasm. It's weird...It's not sexual in anyway, but it's just so rewarding taking in those first tastes of food. Knowing I can shove tons of food in my face instead of carefully counting my calories for each small meal is totally awesome.

Current weight is the same as last week though. I blame my 4th of July weekend. Fri-Sun was essentially a total reset of IF and my diet I'm guessing. I didn't fast at all, and I had a bunch of ice cream and ice tea one day.

Diet and gym plan still the same. Lifting 5x a week consisting of no more than 8 reps per set, then 5-6 mins of high pace intense cardio, generally 1min of jump rope, followed by some abs, followed by some kind of plyo moves like burpees/mountain climbers with as little rest as possible.

 

[z1ggy]

Officially done with three weeks on IF.

Starting Weight: 188lb
Starting Body fat: ~18% (According to the hand grabby machine thing)

After Three Weeks: 184.5lb
Current Body Fat: 15.7% (Using the same hand held thing)

Overall, I am impressed. Three weeks and over 3lb of weight loss, with non-perfecting eating habits & non perfect fasting. This weekend I have no plans, so I should be able to fast and eat properly. Hoping to break that 184lb mark by next Friday.

 

[Koing]

Officially done with three weeks on IF.

Starting Weight: 188lb
Starting Body fat: ~18% (According to the hand grabby machine thing)

After Three Weeks: 184.5lb
Current Body Fat: 15.7% (Using the same hand held thing)

Overall, I am impressed. Three weeks and over 3lb of weight loss, with non-perfecting eating habits & non perfect fasting. This weekend I have no plans, so I should be able to fast and eat properly. Hoping to break that 184lb mark by next Friday.

Good job!

Just keep on the grind and let the diet do it's work

Koing

 

[z1ggy]

Thanks Koing!!!

This weekend, I fasted as appropriate, but I did drink a bit one night and had some bad food cravings I caved and had Chinese take out. I spread out the Chinese food over 2 days, so Im pretty sure I didn't go over my calorie count, but I know I did eat too many carbs per protein. Ah well, back to the grind this week.

 

[Koing]

Thanks Koing!!!

This weekend, I fasted as appropriate, but I did drink a bit one night and had some bad food cravings I caved and had Chinese take out. I spread out the Chinese food over 2 days, so Im pretty sure I didn't go over my calorie count, but I know I did eat too many carbs per protein. Ah well, back to the grind this week.

Got to be strict mate. It's the only way in the long run. Back on the grind.

Koing