Lean Gains by Martin Berkhan

[z1ggy]

I just wanted to say quickly, the EC stack is 100% working. I don't know/care if it helps actually burn more fat (nothing but a good diet can really help that) but I'm almost positive it helps reduce hunger cravings. I've currently cut back to ~2700 cals, and I have no problems delaying breakfast til about 10am. I was eating something around 7:30-8am because I'd get hungry.

I think this will really help me make sure I don't go over calories and maintain my fasted state during my cut.

 

[Howard]

If I could chime in, I know we bumped heads about diet before, but I am going add my 2 cent that I think will help. Plain and simple that is way too much fat and too much fatty protein for that amount of calories. Your first meal especially before training if you are going to eat, should be a clean high protein meal. Fat will slow your metabolism, I don't think those almonds in the morning are doing you any justice. I would drop the almond milk too probably. Find a protein source if you don't want to add a protein powder to something with less fat, like fat free milk or egg whites.

Why do you think a diet high in protein and fat is a bad thing?

 

[z1ggy]

Quick update:

Started this cut at an embarrassing 210lb, after I kind of binged that weekend. It's been 1 full week on the cut, biggest delta so far has been -8lb, with an average of -6lb for the week. Currently 204lb this morning before hitting the toilet.

Eating an average of 2220 calories, with a bit less on weekends, and a little more on week days. Strength has already dropped, but I'm attributing that to lack of sleep due to higher caffeine intake.

Lifting 4x a week, 1x cardio and 1x hockey game. Average ~400 cals burned per day through exercise.

Protein around 170-180g, fat around 80-10, and the rest as carbs, generally in the 150-175g range. I plan to keep this general template up for the first 12 weeks, and be extremely strict on diet. After that, I might dial the fat loss back to .75lb per week, then .5lb after that. I'll update weekly with new weigh ins, etc.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Throwing my two cents in.

I have been extremely meticulous in weighing food and tracking measurements, supplements and weights, along with calorie expenditure. I have over a years worth of data in my excel spreadsheet which I update multiple times per day. Everyone is different, but I suspect this will be accurate to more people than they realize.

1) People are much, much fatter than they think. Even well trained individuals. I was a well trained individual and I under-estimated the amount of fat I was carrying. I see people say "I think my ideal weight would be 180 @ 10%" this person will be like 5"'6"... Sorry to say, but that isn't going to happen. If you think you need to lose 10 to look great, try '30' and the main reason for that is because people don't understand the role of glycogen and it's impact on weight. The first 10 pounds on any diet should be discarded and counted as mere 'water loss' sure, some of it will be fat loss for sure, but people will do much better to count that 10 as mere 'water' because 90% of it is water and waste...

2) People don't really understand glycogen depletion, repletion and super compensation. My weight without deliberate manipulation (As in, trying to drop water weight via sauna, diuretics, etc..) has gone from a 170.0 (glycogen depleted) low to a 186 (Glycogen super compensation) within 36 hours of a carb load and no actual fat was gained.

3) Creatine can and will increase water weight, but this is good water weight. It typically draws water into the muscles and not into the subcutaneous. But the water is just a by-product, the real gain is the extra power. After tested on my self, the difference between no creatine and fully loaded was over 5 pounds in my case of retained water. It gives a more fuller look. Drop creatine on a cut will cause you to drop even further weight (in addition to that of glycogen loss) which some people will assume is 'fat' - again, some of it might be, but most of it is just the loss in water volume.

To give me example, if I drop creatine and deplete glycogen substantially, I will drop to 165. Carb loading will bring me up to 180 (super compensation) and then added creatine over the course of the next month will edge me up towards 185 @ maintenance. If I load, even faster (can gain the weight in as little as 7 days if I creatine load)

There is a saying... "You can't manage what you don't measure." and it has taken me over 8 years to finally put the dots together. For an article, I find interesting, check out:

Glycogen storage: illusions of easy weight loss, excessive weight regain, and distortions in estimates of body composition.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/56/1/292S.abstract

 

[z1ggy]

Oh, trust me I am well aware that what I just lost is mostly water due to glycogen retention. I am also being very honest with my self this time around and tracking everything.

Last cut I did, I dropped 7lb in the first two weeks, and on this past bulk, I gained around 9lb in one week, all from the water retention from eating more/less carbs.

That's why I use weekly weight average instead of just one weekly measurement to track progress. Although after week 3 my weight should stabilize pretty quickly and I'll hopefully be sticking to -1lb/week weight loss.

 

[rga]

Not sure if anyone should trust that you know what you're doing based on the history of this thread.

 

[z1ggy]

Not sure if anyone should trust that you know what you're doing based on the history of this thread.

What's your point? If you do, than why aren't you offering your advice to help out another person trying to better themselves?

O wait, you're just a thread crapper, right.

 

[rga]

What's your point? If you do, than why aren't you offering your advice to help out another person trying to better themselves?

O wait, you're just a thread crapper, right.

How many times in the history of this thread have you changed your diet? How many times have you changed your routine? Here's all the advice any one will ever need to accomplish the goals you set out to in this thread: pick a diet and stick to it; pick a routine and stick to; be patient enough to see results in due time. You just lack the discipline and commitment to follow the advice that anyone provides.

 

[Koing]

3 weeks, now going into week 4 of higher cals.


Right, of course. They can't just magically get results for me if I'm not doing the right stuff on my own.

How many pounds were you weighing? Did you eat that much protein for any particular reason? Seems like overkill other than using it to replace carbs.

Also, how long were your lifting sessions? The most I can do is 45mins, because I am at work while I work out (gym inside building). If I went just 3x a week, I'd have to do almost double the lift time, which my boss wouldn't really like...

5'10
99kg 2012 (bulked up to 99kg by June, lost 2kg working at the Olympic games, then diet down for back packing, left at 93kg, came back 3months later 84.8kg then bulked to 91.5kg in about 9/10 weeks)
93.5kg Feb 2013
90.5kg start of cut
84.5kg end of cut, 83.3kg lowest the previous week
Total lost 6kg 13.2lbs

I ate that much protein because I weighed 90.5kg to start my cut down from 93.5kg a few months earlier. My protein means you should hopefully retain more muscle when cutting at a calorie deficit and your body can use the protein for energy.

My sessions are 2-2.5hrs but I bank on zero calories burnt in my lifting sessions. Lifting doesn't really burn that many calories during training at all. It's the after affect of building muscle and increasing your metabolism which is the biggest gain.

Also eating more protein for most people will help them stay full for longer.

I didn't so smaller meals as that made me more hungry so I went with 3 bigger meals. It's about finding ***something you*** can stick with longer term.

The ideal XYZ is not for everyone if you can not stick to it and some people have a much harder time leaning up as they have relatively poor metabolisms compared to other people.

My friend can eat a relatively high amount of junk food and stay sub 10% all year around. He does have great genetics, trains like a beast, does no cardio BUT eats below his maintenance which is probably something around 2.7-2.8k per day if not 3k. He doesn't count calories or macros but just adjusts what he eats weekly. But he gets to a sub 7% he has to eat clean with one refeed day and do some cardio walking.

My other buddy eats a lot but he also does about 20-25miles of running per week along with 3-5 classes. He isn't anywhere as muscular as my other mate but he is lean.

I always suggest to people to build their metabolism up for a year and then cut down. The cut will be much easier and more sustainable if you do it this way. I'm training a few people and they are doing this. One guy is up 4kg in 5months of training. He is a beginner though and only now he is understanding the amounts of food you need to eat to gain size and get stronger. This doesn't even include the 4-5x a week he trains with me. He did not know intensity before training with me. He's trained 2-3 years on and off with his mates. Another guy couldn't do 4 strict chins ups before but he can now do 9 solid chin ups and 5-6 pull ups. He has been grinding away at this for 4months now.

Koing

 

[z1ggy]

I'm going to keep all updates very brief from now on, as not much will really be changing.

Mid way through week 4. Average weight is 198.4lb. End of week 1 average weight was 205.2.

Thanks all.

 

[rga]

I'm going to keep all updates very brief from now on, as not much will really be changing.

That sentence defines the entire thread.

 

[z1ggy]

That sentence defines the entire thread.

I'm going to enjoy posting pics later this year. Please, keep being a douche, it's very motivating honestly.

Current average weight is 196.4 now. I was just calipered by the gym PT @16.6%. Since last August when I had it done, the calc shows I've gained 8lb lean mass.

 

[Koing]

I'm going to enjoy posting pics later this year. Please, keep being a douche, it's very motivating honestly.

Current average weight is 196.4 now. I was just calipered by the gym PT @16.6%. Since last August when I had it done, the calc shows I've gained 8lb lean mass.

Keep on the grind and you will get to where you want to be. Consistency is the key to everything.

Koing

 

[z1ggy]

Week end average weight so far:

Week 1: 205.2
Week 2: 200.2
Week 3: 200.0
Week 4: 198.1
Week 5: 196.3
Week 6: 194.3

 

[Koing]

Week end average weight so far:

Week 1: 205.2
Week 2: 200.2
Week 3: 200.0
Week 4: 198.1
Week 5: 196.3
Week 6: 194.3

Keep on the grind mate!

A mate has before fallen of the diet wagon so many times but a few months go he has managed to successfully go from 205lbs down to 190lbs over 8 weeks. He does some IIFYM and he walks more. But the main thing is he is logging food properly, counting calories and eating under his maintenance. He is also working out his 7 day average.

NOW he gets it

Koing

 

[z1ggy]

Thanks Koing.

Yeah I think that's been the key for me is logging EVERYTHING and being really honest with myself if I do happen to stray for a beer or something. So far so good.

I've actually been employing a carb/calorie cycle which I think works really well for me and my life style. Keeping these posts short here but basically I consume very low calories and carbs Mon-Thurs, and reefed with high carbs and cals on Fri night/Sat, then on Sunday I eat whatever I need to make my weekly energy balance get to where it needs to be, but it's usually medium carbs (~175g) and around 2400cals.

 

[zubbs1]

For what its worth, I've been doing intermittent fasting for over a year. My routine is really simple:
Lift day (MWF): I eat a few eggs and my spirulina, and chlorella supplements around 8:30 am. I start my workout an hour later. I then eat my 'meal' around 12:30. Then I don't eat again until about 12:30 the next day (since the next day is not a lift day).

My diet:
I follow Tim Ferris's 'Slow Carb' eating plan. Essentially legumes, veg, and lean protein 6 days a week (no carbs from non veg sources, and no drinking calories), then one cheat day (or if very strict/worried, one cheat meal) on day 7; rinse and repeat. It is easy to follow, and the cheat day is not suggested, its required, to keep thyroid from tuning down metabolism. The beauty is while intermittent fasting, you eliminate the water gain and bloat within 24ish hours of the cheat. The psychological relief of a cheat day is a major advantage to this plan.

I'm 6'5 and weigh about 212 lbs while bulking currently. I have abs that show and have muscle tone/definition (since I hate 'measuring' body fat, that gives at least some idea of my current level). I have only been back into lifting for about 7 months too.

I have nothing but positive things to say about both intermittent fasting, and the slow carb eating plan (even though my wife and coworkers laugh at me for doing it). I did cut from August through December, and will probably be on a bulk for 3+ more months.

While he doesn't state it, I do track my macros for the six days, but not on cheat day.

The benefits of IF go far beyond the ego bump of a a trim figure. It helps your immune system and metabolism in general because the body's enzyme stores get replenished during fasting. It seems ludicrous to think that you can go 20-24 hours without food and not be peeling yourself off the floor, but for me, I have no hunger pains ever. I do notice at the extreme end of some fasts that I am a little light headed, which is likely due to my blood sugar getting too low. However, it is right before I stuff 3Kcal in my face, so I don't worry too much

 

[z1ggy]

Yes I am fasting on my low carb low cal days. On my high carb refeeds, I do not, simply because fitting in 500carbs in one day is impossible in just 8 hours.

Glad to see IF has helped you. I definitely couldn't diet with out it.


PS, post for this week, current weight is 192. Hopefully I will be 190lb flat by mid March. 20lb in 9 week will be pretty awesome, something I will be proud of.

 

[zubbs1]

Yes I am fasting on my low carb low cal days. On my high carb refeeds, I do not, simply because fitting in 500carbs in one day is impossible in just 8 hours.

Glad to see IF has helped you. I definitely couldn't diet with out it.


PS, post for this week, current weight is 192. Hopefully I will be 190lb flat by mid March. 20lb in 9 week will be pretty awesome, something I will be proud of.

Something else to keep in mind, toxicity in the body is an impedement to fat loss. Fat stores are a defense mechanism our body uses to quarantine harmful fat-solube toxins. There are many types of detoxes. Some are very harsh, which I would recommend against. A niacin flush if done properly (a large dose of niacin forces fat cells to dump their cargo, which will exit sweat pores if included during elevated body temp/sweating - i.e. during a cardio workout, or in a sauna)can be safe. Others can be more mild and slow. I take spirulina and chlorella (as tablets) to achieve a mild long term detox.

Lastly, I would recommend taking probiotics. Either as a stand alone supplement, or as a food/drink based. I make my own Kombucha (fermented black tea), but for a good sized markup you could buy your own. Or making your own saur kraut, kimchi, pickled anything etc.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Yes I am fasting on my low carb low cal days. On my high carb refeeds, I do not, simply because fitting in 500carbs in one day is impossible in just 8 hours.

Wish I had that problem... I can down 5K calories in 8 hours. No kidding. I naturally follow the 16/8 IF pattern and have done it before I even knew it existed. I have a small amount of calories during the first 8 hour feed window (25% or less of my total) and then during the last hour, after my workout, I eat the other 75%. I commonly eat 2K within an hour. If it is carb refeed,then it is generally a huge stack of pancakes and glucose syrup. Around 2K cals within 15 minutes.

Also found if water retention is an issue for you, which it could be, then pounding a ton of water before bed works the best. I don't ever have issues retaining water as long as I drink 64oz after my meal.

That said, I am not a huge fan of 5K calorie carb loads anymore. I think more frequent carb loads in the 3.5K range is better. Plus, depleting glycogen is generally a miserable process and makes you look weak and frail towards the end before and during your carb load until it is done. The body yo-yo's to much with a UD 2.0 type diet. Which, is basically carb loading to the extreme, IMO.

 

[z1ggy]

Something else to keep in mind, toxicity in the body is an impedement to fat loss. Fat stores are a defense mechanism our body uses to quarantine harmful fat-solube toxins. There are many types of detoxes. Some are very harsh, which I would recommend against. A niacin flush if done properly (a large dose of niacin forces fat cells to dump their cargo, which will exit sweat pores if included during elevated body temp/sweating - i.e. during a cardio workout, or in a sauna)can be safe. Others can be more mild and slow. I take spirulina and chlorella (as tablets) to achieve a mild long term detox.

Lastly, I would recommend taking probiotics. Either as a stand alone supplement, or as a food/drink based. I make my own Kombucha (fermented black tea), but for a good sized markup you could buy your own. Or making your own saur kraut, kimchi, pickled anything etc.

I will look into these, thank you.

Wish I had that problem... I can down 5K calories in 8 hours. No kidding. I naturally follow the 16/8 IF pattern and have done it before I even knew it existed. I have a small amount of calories during the first 8 hour feed window (25% or less of my total) and then during the last hour, after my workout, I eat the other 75%. I commonly eat 2K within an hour. If it is carb refeed,then it is generally a huge stack of pancakes and glucose syrup. Around 2K cals within 15 minutes.

Also found if water retention is an issue for you, which it could be, then pounding a ton of water before bed works the best. I don't ever have issues retaining water as long as I drink 64oz after my meal.

That said, I am not a huge fan of 5K calorie carb loads anymore. I think more frequent carb loads in the 3.5K range is better. Plus, depleting glycogen is generally a miserable process and makes you look weak and frail towards the end before and during your carb load until it is done. The body yo-yo's to much with a UD 2.0 type diet. Which, is basically carb loading to the extreme, IMO.

Well, I think the reason you only do UD2 for 6-8 weeks at a time is because it is extreme. I mean, it's mainly only for people trying to go from lean ---> very lean (and I don't consider myself lean yet). I have had success so far doing a more moderate carb cycle approach which I think could be done year 'round. I wanted to experiment though with the real UD2 diet for 6 weeks just to see if I could get very fast results. If I don't get results for whatever reason or I just can't stick to the plan, I will go back to what I was doing so far.

 

[z1ggy]

Almost end of week 9. Weight is 190.6

Also, PSA: Do NOT take Niacin (Vitamin B3) on an empty stomach. You will feel like death for a short while.

 

[z1ggy]

I've noticed looking back on my logs, I'm actually lifting a bit less now than I was even just 4-5 weeks ago. Endurance is also going down, too. Weighed 191.0 this morning, so obviously the weight loss has slowed. St. Paddy's weekend certainly did not help as I fully partook in festivities.

 

[SP33Demon]

Ziggy, have you tried a 48 hour+ fast yet? I'm trying to reboot my immune system (and activate stem cells) and I'm at around 36 hours so far. The kicker? I've done two heavy lifting sessions in the first 24 hours. First was 4 hours in, the 2nd was at the 20-22hr mark. It's not for the faint of heart though. Definitely noticing some very slight fat loss so far and possibly muscle. Anyway, if you have a shitty immune system (like me since I'm always training heavy) or injuries (like my discs) you may want to try a reboot as well.
BTW, the study I'm referencing:
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-06-fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regeneration.html

I noticed that you discussed 16/8 and even 24 hour fasting but that's really not enough if you want to really reboot things. It will help your insulin levels of course but to really shock your system you need to make the body think it's at a risk of true starvation.

 

[Mai72]

I love Intermittent Fasting. It allows me to skip breakfast so I can do what I need to do in the morning without interruption.

I'm going to fast for a few days. I've taken on buddhisim and when I meditate I want to do it in a fastened state.