Left 4 Dead is now hosed

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: videogames101
Valce just fvcked L4D up, by making the tank and witch spawn in the same place for both teams, giving the second team an extrodinarily massive advantage, give me my director back!

I agree with this. The first team of survivors gets no idea, the second knows exactly where the witch/tank will be. It doesn't really screw up the game that badly, but it is pretty unfair.

But it was still pretty shitty when one team got a witch/tank and the other didn't. I'd rather have 1 guaranteed tank per level and 1-2 guaranteed witches.

I like the guaranteed spawn part, but the spawn point through the level should be random.

I thought this was unfair when I first read it, but the fact that the infected can use that knowledge to attack all at once as well negates that mostly I think.

Sounds like the smoker got some much needed buffs and might be marginally useful against closet campers now though. Reduced Autoshotty damage to the tank should really change things up some.

 

[Oceandevi]

I still think the smoker's smoke he leaves after killed should do a AOE damage.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: Maximilian
No more quick tank kills with the auto shotty

BOOO!

That's a bunch of BS right there... "Hey here is a gun with the worst range and longest reload time of any weapong but at least it can...well...uh...it's got bad range and reloads slow! TA-DA!"

 

[Tiamat]

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: Maximilian
No more quick tank kills with the auto shotty

BOOO!

That's a bunch of BS right there... "Hey here is a gun with the worst range and longest reload time of any weapong but at least it can...well...uh...it's got bad range and reloads slow! TA-DA!"

You still can take the tank out pretty quickly with the autoshotty, just not as quickly as before. Just left click spam for higher dps and all 4 survivors have to have the autoshotty and it goes down after taking down one survivor in expert mode within about 7 seconds.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: Maximilian
No more quick tank kills with the auto shotty

BOOO!

That's a bunch of BS right there... "Hey here is a gun with the worst range and longest reload time of any weapong but at least it can...well...uh...it's got bad range and reloads slow! TA-DA!"

I disagree.

The auto shotgun was and maybe still is over powered. 4 players standing their ground with auto shotguns could drop a tank in 3-4 seconds prepatch. I haven't played it since (patch takes forever on my shitty connection) but as I understand it is probably still the most potent weapon against the tank. They also sort of nerfed the tank in that he can't just knock cars around to reset his aggression meter any longer, he has to attack. (I'd argue this is more of a bug fix then a nerf)

And the patch only reduces its damage against the tank...the fact is its actually retardedly powerful against everything else as well. It has infinite zombie body penetration, which doesn't even make sense for a shotgun and can deal a lot of hurt fast. All threats are close range in the game, so the fact that its long range is useless doesn't even matter. The smoker is the only medium range threat and because of its insane rate of fire and only moderate spread the gun isn't even appreciably worse at taking out smokers.

If you don't run it dry, its reload is way faster since you don't need to cock it at the end of the reload. Shotguns in games have always been a trade off for reloading. They take longer to reload from empty but can be topped off faster then other weapons.

There's a reason most people only use that gun, its the best one. The assault rifle has its moments and is certainly the better anti-smoker weapon, but not by a lot. The auto-shotgun is just better at handling the more common problems. I'd argue its main weakness isn't its long range inaccuracy or reload time, but the fact that the ass whopping amounts of damage it deals out means its FF is fucking dangerous.

The hunting rifle is useless 90% of the time. Its just not good against large hordes unless they're all coming in a bee line all at once, and since your accuracy goes to hell the moment you start getting smoker pulled its actually worse then the auto shotgun against smokers! The only time I use that gun is when I'm next to a weapons table and want to clear out shambling common infected before I move forward. I ditch it before I move on.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

just chiming in, really like the new patch.
infected hud much nicer
swipe nerf was necessary, but not overdone
adding pull damage to smoker was a great simple way to add more flexibility to that character

no fps issues, but im running on a brand new build

one thing i would like to see is an option for matchmaking to 'join as group', instead of always having to create a lobby if you want to play with friends. for one, that would allow premade teams to play against other premade teams (as it is, usually one premade and one pug, who end up quitting). also, it can take al ong time to fill up a lobby with only 2 people waiting... would rather just have it dump us into another game

autoshottie ftw

 

[HardcoreRobot]

was thinking a quick way to fix the imbalance of identical tank/witch spawns (tho i agree with ja1484 that it is not as advantageous as it seems) would be to alternate which team goes first.

team A is surv first, next round they go infected first, then surv first, then infected first. then in the finales the tank spawns are known anyways

 

[ja1484]

The one thing I want patched in is an option to drop off of things when incapped hanging on a ledge.

Sometimes the game's collision detection wigs out and you end up incapped hanging from a ledge two feet off the ground. If I *LET GO* I would take no damage from the fall. Instead, I might very well die, either at the hands of the infected or simply due to bleedout time. So stupid.

 

[Oceandevi]

Originally posted by: ja1484

The one thing I want patched in is an option to drop off of things when incapped hanging on a ledge.

Sometimes the game's collision detection wigs out and you end up incapped hanging from a ledge two feet off the ground. If I *LET GO* I would take no damage from the fall. Instead, I might very well die, either at the hands of the infected or simply due to bleedout time. So stupid.

this would take ledge griefing away though. ;P

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: videogames101
Valce just fvcked L4D up, by making the tank and witch spawn in the same place for both teams, giving the second team an extrodinarily massive advantage, give me my director back!

I agree with this. The first team of survivors gets no idea, the second knows exactly where the witch/tank will be. It doesn't really screw up the game that badly, but it is pretty unfair.

But it was still pretty shitty when one team got a witch/tank and the other didn't. I'd rather have 1 guaranteed tank per level and 1-2 guaranteed witches.

this is actually more fair because tanks in random spots can give one team a tank around a bunch of cars or another team a tank in an area where its far easier to engage it

also, before the patch sometimes teams could get a tank and the other none, or one team could get TWO tanks and the other just one (or even none). How is that more fair?

As far as witches, well I like that they're trying to make the witch less avoidable, but they don't need it on the same spot as long as they do that. However I have seen several instances where the witch was still incredibly easy to avoid...

Another reason its a bit more fair from the infected point of view the 2nd time around is that while the survivors know where your tank and witche(s) are, SO DO YOU! You know exactly when to expect them and can then go and support these assets instead of it being a relative surprise - you know when you should try and keep a smoker alive to pull a survivor nearer to the witch or try and keep a boomer alive for when its time for tank, etc...


What they really need to do is swap which team goes first every level, then the game really becomes fair. Zombie team has always had the advantage since day one because they can figure out where the tier 2 guns are at (again, this is the most fair way to do it otherwise random placements of tier 2s could get far more unfair than letting the infected team figure out where they are for their turn)

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: Oceandevi
I still think the smoker's smoke he leaves after killed should do a AOE damage.

and thicker smoke to make it more confusing to the people caught up in it

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: Maximilian
No more quick tank kills with the auto shotty

BOOO!

That's a bunch of BS right there... "Hey here is a gun with the worst range and longest reload time of any weapong but at least it can...well...uh...it's got bad range and reloads slow! TA-DA!"

I disagree.

The auto shotgun was and maybe still is over powered. 4 players standing their ground with auto shotguns could drop a tank in 3-4 seconds prepatch. I haven't played it since (patch takes forever on my shitty connection) but as I understand it is probably still the most potent weapon against the tank. They also sort of nerfed the tank in that he can't just knock cars around to reset his aggression meter any longer, he has to attack. (I'd argue this is more of a bug fix then a nerf)

And the patch only reduces its damage against the tank...the fact is its actually retardedly powerful against everything else as well. It has infinite zombie body penetration, which doesn't even make sense for a shotgun and can deal a lot of hurt fast. All threats are close range in the game, so the fact that its long range is useless doesn't even matter. The smoker is the only medium range threat and because of its insane rate of fire and only moderate spread the gun isn't even appreciably worse at taking out smokers.

If you don't run it dry, its reload is way faster since you don't need to cock it at the end of the reload. Shotguns in games have always been a trade off for reloading. They take longer to reload from empty but can be topped off faster then other weapons.

There's a reason most people only use that gun, its the best one. The assault rifle has its moments and is certainly the better anti-smoker weapon, but not by a lot. The auto-shotgun is just better at handling the more common problems. I'd argue its main weakness isn't its long range inaccuracy or reload time, but the fact that the ass whopping amounts of damage it deals out means its FF is fucking dangerous.

The hunting rifle is useless 90% of the time. Its just not good against large hordes unless they're all coming in a bee line all at once, and since your accuracy goes to hell the moment you start getting smoker pulled its actually worse then the auto shotgun against smokers! The only time I use that gun is when I'm next to a weapons table and want to clear out shambling common infected before I move forward. I ditch it before I move on.

Yup, totally agree here

Let's review where the shotgun is still the best weapon:

1. killing hoards - hoards are the bread and butter for the infected. Like pawns in chess they make all the difference and the game cannot be won (for the infected side) without them. Shotguns can be one shot kills on multiple targets at close range...

2. power - at close range nothing is more powerful, not even the hunting rifle. One shot one kill on any special infected including...

3. witches - no other gun is as effective for dealing with witches. Even the pump shotty can take out a witch in one shot with relative ease on the normal difficulty of Vs. (you don't even have to hit her in the head)

4. accuracy when running - you can operate the weapon just as accurately running around and jumping as you can crouched whereas the pistols/smg/rifles get progressively worse. In fast paced Vs. play this is absolutely huge.

5. tanks - tier 2 weapons in general fuck tanks up, the shotgun still has major teeth at close range, it just isn't completely ridiculous where its only 20 shots (or something ridiculous - I've been able to get people the tank buster award before this patch by having them sit against a wall and take the auto shotty to the tank) at point blank and the tank is dead. The reduction of auto shotty power against tanks only encourages players to use other weapons like the AR which is arguably just as good against the tank as its relative constant stream of bullets it can put out can guarantee the tank will never get to you. Plus its a much better weapon to hit the tank at from a distance. So if anything I could argue the reduced damage to the auto shotty against the tank has only increased the danger to the tank as the tank is far more likely to face opponents with ARs and thus cant sit back and lob rocks as easily.

6. double pistols actually make a potent ranged weapon when used by a competent player (they actually make decent primary weapons too - my friends and I have beaten pubbers by several thousand strictly using pistols). When the backup weapon can address the primary weakness of the of the shotgun so well, it makes the combination of the two even better.

7. ammo - other than the hunting rifle, shotgunners pretty much never have to worry about running out of ammo between guaranteed ammo caches. If anything they could reduce the max ammo reserve down to 100 from 128. SMG and AR wielders are far more prone to running out of ammo and the pistols become crucial not as a complimentary weapon, but because they never run out of ammo, an asset that benefits shotgunners just as much...

 

[ja1484]

Originally posted by: LumbergTech

Originally posted by: Oceandevi
I still think the smoker's smoke he leaves after killed should do a AOE damage.

and thicker smoke to make it more confusing to the people caught up in it

Oh yeah, let's just totally break the game the other way...now instead of the bad smoker we'll have a good smoker/boomer (Smoomer) combo that's a one-man wrecking crew. Why not have the tank with akimbo auto-shotties? You know what, let's make boomer bile an instant kill.

You jackass.

The "re-balance" of the infected has allowed even mediocre players to have a decent performance as the infected whereas before pubs with Downs would get thoroughly whooped. The Smoker received the most improvements. The game is now "balanced" as fairly as it's going to be, with the possible exception of alternating which team goes first every round.

You add any more abilities to the current infected, they're going to be way overpowered.

 

[shortylickens]

Originally posted by: ja1484

Originally posted by: LumbergTech

Originally posted by: Oceandevi
I still think the smoker's smoke he leaves after killed should do a AOE damage.

and thicker smoke to make it more confusing to the people caught up in it

Oh yeah, let's just totally break the game the other way...now instead of the bad smoker we'll have a good smoker/boomer (Smoomer) combo that's a one-man wrecking crew. Why not have the tank with akimbo auto-shotties? You know what, let's make boomer bile an instant kill.

You jackass.

The "re-balance" of the infected has allowed even mediocre players to have a decent performance as the infected whereas before pubs with Downs would get thoroughly whooped. The Smoker received the most improvements. The game is now "balanced" as fairly as it's going to be, with the possible exception of alternating which team goes first every round.

You add any more abilities to the current infected, they're going to be way overpowered.

I played this game on the free weekend and I have to say: I didnt think it was good enough to get this worked up over.
Fun sure, but mostly for the online and I dont care that much for the online.

These sound like the kinds of arguments normally found in CounterStrike.

Or is it common in all online FPS's during the first few months?

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: ja1484

Originally posted by: LumbergTech

Originally posted by: Oceandevi
I still think the smoker's smoke he leaves after killed should do a AOE damage.

and thicker smoke to make it more confusing to the people caught up in it

Oh yeah, let's just totally break the game the other way...now instead of the bad smoker we'll have a good smoker/boomer (Smoomer) combo that's a one-man wrecking crew. Why not have the tank with akimbo auto-shotties? You know what, let's make boomer bile an instant kill.

You jackass.

The "re-balance" of the infected has allowed even mediocre players to have a decent performance as the infected whereas before pubs with Downs would get thoroughly whooped. The Smoker received the most improvements. The game is now "balanced" as fairly as it's going to be, with the possible exception of alternating which team goes first every round.

You add any more abilities to the current infected, they're going to be way overpowered.

my friends and I have gotten so good we have to find ways to nerf ourselves when we play pubbers. Just yesterday we decided to "push" things from one saferoom to the next. There was a TV on the 3rd level of No Mercy we took from the safroom all the way to the ladder in the sewers up to the hospital. Unfortunately there was no way to get it up the ladder so we had to give up and waltz into the saferoom. So I don't really want to hear cry babying about infected side being too advantaged when 4 randoms can't take us down when we give them an hour to do it (with our focus diverted), including a tank.

The more organized matches we've played with two good teams of four are regularly seeing most everyone survive all the way through. While the smoker and other aspects may be improved, taking away the Hunter's "Ninja Slash" nerfed things far more for good players/teams than had a net effect in making things easier for the infected side...maybe truly random teams of mediocre/average players has seen improvement, however I feel the overall effect has actually been a downgrade for the infected side. Hunter slash really was a huge asset and skill to acquire before they normalized it.

 

[ja1484]

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles

my friends and I have gotten so good we have to find ways to nerf ourselves when we play pubbers. Just yesterday we decided to "push" things from one saferoom to the next. There was a TV on the 3rd level of No Mercy we took from the safroom all the way to the ladder in the sewers up to the hospital. Unfortunately there was no way to get it up the ladder so we had to give up and waltz into the saferoom. So I don't really want to hear cry babying about infected side being too advantaged when 4 randoms can't take us down when we give them an hour to do it (with our focus diverted), including a tank.

You're playing random pubs. That's exactly how it should be. It's assumed from the outset that pubs are useless. They're like the untouchables in India.

You know the real problem with the internet? People don't seem to understand that I'm right about everything.

No random team will ever be able to stop 4 consistent teammates. That's a given. I said "decent performance", not "competent". Whereas before they wouldn't even score hits, now they may get you down to, say, 80 health. GOOD teams have a much easier time making stops now, but that's just because the methods they had developed before are now more effective, hunter slashing aside.

The more organized matches we've played with two good teams of four are regularly seeing most everyone survive all the way through. While the smoker and other aspects may be improved, taking away the Hunter's "Ninja Slash" nerfed things far more for good players/teams than had a net effect in making things easier for the infected side...maybe truly random teams of mediocre/average players has seen improvement, however I feel the overall effect has actually been a downgrade for the infected side. Hunter slash really was a huge asset and skill to acquire before they normalized it.

Hunter slash has been downgraded a bit, and it has made things a bit more challenging as the *hunter*, but I doubt it affects the overall outcome of many matches. Stops usually occur when a team gets split up by geography or chaos.

 

[450R]

Originally posted by: ja1484
You know the real problem with the internet? People don't seem to understand that I'm right about everything.

No, the real problem here is that might have a good point but you ruin it with a sour, holier-than-thou attitude. Quit acting like a dick and maybe your opinion will count for something.

 

[Oceandevi]

Originally posted by: 450R

Originally posted by: ja1484
You know the real problem with the internet? People don't seem to understand that I'm right about everything.

No, the real problem here is that might have a good point but you ruin it with a sour, holier-than-thou attitude. Quit acting like a dick and maybe your opinion will count for something.

I thought it was funny.

 

[Oceandevi]

Originally posted by: ja1484

Originally posted by: LumbergTech

Originally posted by: Oceandevi
I still think the smoker's smoke he leaves after killed should do a AOE damage.

and thicker smoke to make it more confusing to the people caught up in it

Oh yeah, let's just totally break the game the other way...now instead of the bad smoker we'll have a good smoker/boomer (Smoomer) combo that's a one-man wrecking crew. Why not have the tank with akimbo auto-shotties? You know what, let's make boomer bile an instant kill.

You jackass.

The "re-balance" of the infected has allowed even mediocre players to have a decent performance as the infected whereas before pubs with Downs would get thoroughly whooped. The Smoker received the most improvements. The game is now "balanced" as fairly as it's going to be, with the possible exception of alternating which team goes first every round.

You add any more abilities to the current infected, they're going to be way overpowered.

An aoe cloud of smoke would encourage the survivors to get out of the corner a bit faster. It would only add to the pace of the game.

Saying that it is a game breaker... please.

 

[Oceandevi]

I have been playing death toll and dead air vs lately. They are infected friendly to say the least.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: ja1484
Hunter slash has been downgraded a bit, and it has made things a bit more challenging as the *hunter*, but I doubt it affects the overall outcome of many matches. Stops usually occur when a team gets split up by geography or chaos.

See, this is where you're clearly wrong. My point was about GOOD teams (maybe you don't have much experience here) and that in matches with two good teams (who all know each other) the survivors more often than not have been surviving, with both sides scoring into the 6000+ range.

Why is this? Its because hunters can't run up and slash with the same effect they had before. Good teams are far too johny-on-the-spot for pounces to be worth anything, and good teams take corner tactics to the extreme. All 4 survivors can be susceptible to a single hunter slash if they're close enough together, I have actually incapped 3 with one slash when they were huddling over their 4th trying to pick him up...

When hunters could do at least 10 damage per swipe you had a serious weapon against cornered survivors, get a least one swipe off and you no longer wasted your hunter's life.

Before this patch, matches filled with excellent players were fraught with such ninja hunters trying to sneak up (hunters don't make noise unless they're pounced) and flank survivors just to slash away. Not anymore. And the scores are somehow going up despite all these other infected receiving positive boosts or staying the same?

 

[ja1484]

Originally posted by: Oceandevi

Originally posted by: 450R

Originally posted by: ja1484
You know the real problem with the internet? People don't seem to understand that I'm right about everything.

No, the real problem here is that might have a good point but you ruin it with a sour, holier-than-thou attitude. Quit acting like a dick and maybe your opinion will count for something.

I thought it was funny.

That's because you got it. There's a little mark on the wall behind 450R where it went over his head.

Originally posted by: Oceandevi
An aoe cloud of smoke would encourage the survivors to get out of the corner a bit faster. It would only add to the pace of the game.

Saying that it is a game breaker... please.

It wouldn't add to the pace of the game, it'd just break up the survivors more in the event of smokers. There's no need to add any *oomph* to the infected. Good teams make stops, lousy teams don't. I really wouldn't consider anything about Vs broken right now.

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles

Originally posted by: ja1484
Hunter slash has been downgraded a bit, and it has made things a bit more challenging as the *hunter*, but I doubt it affects the overall outcome of many matches. Stops usually occur when a team gets split up by geography or chaos.

See, this is where you're clearly wrong. My point was about GOOD teams (maybe you don't have much experience here) and that in matches with two good teams (who all know each other) the survivors more often than not have been surviving, with both sides scoring into the 6000+ range.

So the group you play with sucks at playing the infected. Work on it.

Why is this? Its because hunters can't run up and slash with the same effect they had before.

Overly reliant on one tactic. That's why you're having trouble now. Can't adapt.

Good teams are far too johny-on-the-spot for pounces to be worth anything, and good teams take corner tactics to the extreme. All 4 survivors can be susceptible to a single hunter slash if they're close enough together, I have actually incapped 3 with one slash when they were huddling over their 4th trying to pick him up...

And none of this was changed by the patch. Just the damage level. Yes, you can no longer go lone-ranger with the hunter to the extent you could before (which was still limited then, despite your rosy-colored glasses), which means you're going to have to coordinate better.

Considering it's a coop title, I suspect this is what they were aiming for in the first place.

When hunters could do at least 10 damage per swipe you had a serious weapon against cornered survivors, get a least one swipe off and you no longer wasted your hunter's life.

Before this patch, matches filled with excellent players were fraught with such ninja hunters trying to sneak up (hunters don't make noise unless they're pounced) and flank survivors just to slash away. Not anymore. And the scores are somehow going up despite all these other infected receiving positive boosts or staying the same?

You can still ninja hunter, you're just more reliant on teamwork and distractions to do it. I still do it all the time.

I disagree with your complaint sir, now see the post above about how I am always right on the internet!

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: ja1484
So the group you play with sucks at playing the infected. Work on it.

we would eat you and your 3 best friends (if you have that many) alive

Overly reliant on one tactic. That's why you're having trouble now. Can't adapt.

again, we would own you and survive every time as survivor baring some fluke tank placement

And none of this was changed by the patch. Just the damage level. Yes, you can no longer go lone-ranger with the hunter to the extent you could before (which was still limited then, despite your rosy-colored glasses), which means you're going to have to coordinate better.

Considering it's a coop title, I suspect this is what they were aiming for in the first place.

blah blah blah, all I said is it made it tougher for the infected, and you're supporting my argument...it basically comes down to whoever can do the most damage if kills can be scored. No big deal, I'll count on my crew surviving with more health, it just changes things.

You can still ninja hunter, you're just more reliant on teamwork and distractions to do it. I still do it all the time.

Ninja hunters were never useful on their own against competent players, apparently you missed the parts where we teamed up to do it during situations where they were distracted (ie boomers)

I disagree with your complaint sir, now see the post above about how I am always right on the internet!

actually you roundabouted on yourself and supported me.

 

[PingSpike]

Yeah, I'm definately getting worse performance after the patch. Before patch my frames rate generally hung around 100 or something with the minimum FPS (only spec that really matters) dipping to 50-55 in the worst cases. Now I'm seeing as low as 30, which is enough to make it jarring and feel less responsive. Same settings, OS, drivers, etc...nothing else changed. There's a big thread with lots of people using good rigs with AMD, Intel, Nvidia and ATI parts all experiencing similar. It sucks for me, but I feel really bad for the people that had a marginal rig and then went from rough but acceptably play at low settings to completely unplayable.

The only performance related thing listed in the release notes is "improved loading time". I would have to guess, based on that, that they probably implemented some kind of dynamic preloading and screwed it up. The odd part is I never even thought to complain about load times, they always seemed pretty fast.

 

[ja1484]

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
we would eat you and your 3 best friends (if you have that many) alive

You don't have to devolve to e-thugging (about videogames of all things). You can just admit you don't have any points to make. It's ok. I also like that you've attempted to attack my social life and/or status, as though I give a remote flying shit about anything anyone on the internet says. Try harder.

Besides, I'm trying to help your play ability here by diagnosing your problems for you. Remember, the first step to fixing a problem is admitting you have it in the first place!

again, we would own you and survive every time as survivor baring some fluke tank placement

See above about e-thugging and no rational points.

blah blah blah, all I said is it made it tougher for the infected, and you're supporting my argument...

No, you have trouble with reading comprehension. They made tougher for the *hunter*, and they made it tougher for you and your "crew" because you can only use one hunter ability effectively, but they made it easier for the infected team overall. Assuming everyone is competent with all the abilities available. Which you're apparently not, based on your bitching.

it basically comes down to whoever can do the most damage if kills can be scored. No big deal, I'll count on my crew surviving with more health, it just changes things.

Yes, in a game where you are scored on health, doing the most damage will result in a win. Proud of ya for puzzling that one out.

Ninja hunters were never useful on their own against competent players, apparently you missed the parts where we teamed up to do it during situations where they were distracted (ie boomers)

Then what are you complaining about?

And ninja hunters were very useful solo in the opening stages of blood harvest with all the plant cover. Guess you guys just never played anyone good at the tactic.

actually you roundabouted on yourself and supported me.

See above re: reading comprehension. I'm sure you'd like to believe this, because claiming the opposition actually supports you in a "roundabout way" is a common last tactic when you've run out of meaningful things to say. I'll stick with my original points, which I have amply explained in this post, rather than trying to pretend you're saying something you're not. Arguments tend to come off stronger when you're not reduced to deluding yourself.