Lemon Computers?

[imported_goku]

Ok I know this MAY seem new to some people but has anyone noticed or ever seen a lemon computer? I have, I've seen a total of 3 systems where there are multiple problems that force the hardware to either be replaced or repaired in some way. For example the problem that plagued all of these systems was the horrific performance they had loading up Windows and other programs. One Particular system takes 20minutes, yes 20-30 minutes! Just to load into Windows 98 with barely any programs or services at startup. It's very unfortunate because this system is still in use by my mother and she is too stubborn to let me try to diagnose the issue. Another system is a Dell XPS D333 where the system will take about an hour to load Windows 98/NT and 5 minutes to load a program.

When I first encountered these issues, I thought oh it must be either a bad HDD or just cheap ram but I tried that hardware in other systems and the systems ran fine! Some might say its the processors but I have an XPS R450 that can out perform an XPS T850 (the 3rd system) in any program including Windows startup! Every since I upgraded my XPS R450 system to a new motherboard combination I had the old board lying around so I install the old board in the XPS T850 and the system starts up like 30%-40% faster! So I try to isolate the issue by running Si-Soft Sandra and run CPU Arithmatic Benchmark but got normal results, ran the Memory Benchmark and I am getting 400MB/s with the T850 board! I Run with the R450 Board and get up to 700MB/s!!!! Please let me know if anyone has encountered issues like these or not!

BTW all of the HDDs in these 3 systems died after 3 years and were replaced with better ones (Maxtor drives).

 

[CraigRT]

Originally posted by: goku2100
BTW all of the HDDs in these 3 systems died after 3 years and were replaced with better ones (Maxtor drives).

That's probably the root of all evil.. most worthless HDD manufacturer ever.

 

[imported_goku]

Why do you say Maxtor is the most worthless HDD manufacturer? Tell me, what IS better? Because I know the WD drive heads explode after a while so they are out of the equation.

 

[MDE]

Originally posted by: goku2100
Why do you say Maxtor is the most worthless HDD manufacturer? Tell me, what IS better? Because I know the WD drive heads explode after a while so they are out of the equation.

WD drive heads exploding? I'll call BS here, The 2GB WD drive my Dad got with his blazing P120 is still working to this day AFAIK, and he's got a 100GB WD drive that's still kicking, as well as my pair of Raptors that are still kicking.

 

[Buz2b]

I'd like to be a bit of a devil's advocate here but not because I want to defend Dell; that's the last thing I would do. HOWEVER you said, "I upgraded my XPS R450 system to a new motherboard combination I had the old board lying around so I install the old board in the XPS T850 and the system starts up like 30%-40% faster! ".
Well, I know for a fact that you cannot install any retail MB into a Dell system. Is that what you are saying you did with your old XPS R450?? It just does not fit as they do not use the same PS power connectors and the PCI slots and other ports do not line up on standard cases correctly. So, perhaps you misspoke and meant to say that you bought a new case, MB and PS and then installed the other Dell parts to it.
Also Dell is very "good" about limiting the upgrade paths on their systems. It is very suspsect that a MB from an XPS R450 system would even work in an XPS T850 system; not to mention the MB driver problems involved. Did you perhaps mean something other than what it sounded like?
And lastly, I think it would be fairly obvious that ANY system that needs "20-30 minutes" just to load Win98 has a whole lot of issues that may or may not related to the hardware. That is simply nuts! What about a simple reload of Windows? That would be the first place you should go. Then, if things still work as slow as before, start with the hardware isolation process. I seriously doubt that we are talking about any kind of "lemons" here. I've owned a couple of Dells before and have worked on/troubleshooted/fixed many others in the course of my previous business (now retired). Hell no, they are not the best systems. Neither are they a POS that takes 30 minutes to load Win98. Another question I would have is how long have they had this problem? I'd be willing to bet that they did not do this when first purchased.
Why don't you give your mom a break and do a format/reload Windows for her. I'd be willing to be that things go well from there. Also, all Dell systems have a ghost image of the initial OS install on a hidden partition of the HD. You might even want to start there and let the system load back up to that original image of the system. That would also probably cure your problem.

 

[imported_Smithy]

Originally posted by: goku2100
Why do you say Maxtor is the most worthless HDD manufacturer? Tell me, what IS better? Because I know the WD drive heads explode after a while so they are out of the equation.

Seagate are better. Maxtor is okay. Hitachi/IBM are the worst

 

[imported_goku]

Yes, I actually did say Retail board in a Dell XPS R450. This website should solve all of your questions (at least most) about dell upgradability http://roberthancock.com/dell/ . Well I'm a little scetchy about defining Lemons but I assume the systems started to degrade in performance about 2-3 years after purchased (I'm not sure because their not mine). The D333 always had problems since it was purchased (according to the employees) and they gave it up when they found a replacement system. Yes most would conclude that its simply the HDD or other hardware but I have like I said before (I think) that I have been able to isolate the issue to simply the motherboard. A quick summary of the site or to my own knowledge is that you CAN install a retail board in almost every system (some more or less difficulty) of almost any manufacturer (some more or less difficulty).

I don't where you heard about this hidden partition on the HDD about the originial software/operating system in dells because I thought this was strictly new Vaio laptops. Remember if you have EVER worked with a Pre P4 dell (some may not be proprietary after pIII but ones i have are) you will know that they have a standard ATX case excluding the powersupply. Also when I installed the motherboard in the XPS T850 system it fits perfectly fine and worked perfectly fine because the systems are litterally identical except the fact the chipset on the newer motherboard supports PIII processors officially. When I say officially I mean that you can install any Pentium III processor (Except katmai cores because they use too many watts and the onboard Voltage regulator can't supply it) in a BX based board (Not sure about other companies). Agian all this info can be found at the website above.

EDIT: Oh yea BTW if you want I can show you pictures of my wonderful success in installing the new ABIT IC7-G Mobo in my Dell XPS R450 case. I also found an easy technique to hook up the LED, Power, Restet HDD LED etc. to the proprietary dell power connector which I think I should let roberthancock know about! I hope this encourages people to save a buck or two on a case an instead use the components that came with thier dells and just get a new mobo. I eventually got new everything (except case) because I eventually had the money to do so. The specs listed below (My signature) IS the Dell XPS R450 system!

 

[Buz2b]

Originally posted by: goku2100
Yes, I actually did say Retail board in a Dell XPS R450. This website should solve all of your questions (at least most) about dell upgradability http://roberthancock.com/dell/ . Well I'm a little scetchy about defining Lemons but I assume the systems started to degrade in performance about 2-3 years after purchased (I'm not sure because their not mine). The D333 always had problems since it was purchased (according to the employees) and they gave it up when they found a replacement system. Yes most would conclude that its simply the HDD or other hardware but I have like I said before (I think) that I have been able to isolate the issue to simply the motherboard. A quick summary of the site or to my own knowledge is that you CAN install a retail board in almost every system (some more or less difficulty) of almost any manufacturer (some more or less difficulty).

I don't where you heard about this hidden partition on the HDD about the originial software/operating system in dells because I thought this was strictly new Vaio laptops. Remember if you have EVER worked with a Pre P4 dell (some may not be proprietary after pIII but ones i have are) you will know that they have a standard ATX case excluding the powersupply. Also when I installed the motherboard in the XPS T850 system it fits perfectly fine and worked perfectly fine because the systems are litterally identical except the fact the chipset on the newer motherboard supports PIII processors officially. When I say officially I mean that you can install any Pentium III processor (Except katmai cores because they use too many watts and the onboard Voltage regulator can't supply it) in a BX based board (Not sure about other companies). Agian all this info can be found at the website above.

EDIT: Oh yea BTW if you want I can show you pictures of my wonderful success in installing the new ABIT IC7-G Mobo in my Dell XPS R450 case. I also found an easy technique to hook up the LED, Power, Restet HDD LED etc. to the proprietary dell power connector which I think I should let roberthancock know about! I hope this encourages people to save a buck or two on a case an instead use the components that came with thier dells and just get a new mobo. I eventually got new everything (except case) because I eventually had the money to do so. The specs listed below (My signature) IS the Dell XPS R450 system!

It is late at night right now so I will not go into detail but I respectfully request that you get your facts straight. Some of which you just detailed will simply NOT WORK. As said, it's late for me; about 10 PM with the wife tapping her foot! :laugh: Please make no mistake, I will address your "issues" and "problems" tomorrow. In the mean time, you should make sure of your issues before you publish them. Later!

 

[Buz2b]

First, please remember that it was getting late when I last posted and was obviously a bit cranky. The language I used was, in retrospect, a bit harsh. First I will say that ANYTHING is possible. However there are many things that either shouldn't be tried or at best are foolish to try. Such is the case (pardon the pun) of putting a non-Dell MB into a Dell case. Even on the website you linked to, they say that trying to do such a thing is a real hassle and suggest you just get a new case. Should that stop folks from trying, no. However, in one tenth the time, with one twentieth of the hassle and if time is money, much less the cost, a person could ditch the Dell Case and install the system with a new MB in a new case w/power supply. Not to mention the fact that one mistake in the wiring of the power supply and/or case connectors could render the whole thing to junk, going your route. I'm perfectly comfortable doing limiited electrical projects but wouldn't try this even if someone paid me. Too risky, a real hassle with limited returns is way I look at it.
Now let's get to the hidden partition I mentioned to you. I'm actually amazed that you don't know about it. It's been in place since they had PII systems. I know because I bought a PII 233 system from Dell (w/o a monitor) for just over $2000 at that time. (Geez! What a system I could build for that now!!!) That OS on that system went south on me about 7 months later and they (Dell support) walked me through accessing that hidden partition to reload everthing back to "out of the box" condition. That was the last Desktop I bought from Dell (I build my own now) but I bought a Dell Laptop (Inspiron 5100) from them a year ago and it has the same hidden partion. Dell also gives you a restore disk but the partition is still there. If you hang around the Delltalk forum enough, you'll see it discussed. (I used to hang out there years ago) This restore system has a name (and works like Drive Image or Ghost) but it escapes me right now. If you ask someone on DellTalk, they should be able to talk you through using it to restore your mom's system; keeping in mind that the system's hardware would have to be pretty much as it came out of the box. One other problem you might have though would be if you've previously formatted the HDD. Some have said in the past that this could somehow corrupt the hidden partition but I can't confirm that. In fact technically it should't make any difference unless you also wiped all partions on the drive.

 

[imported_goku]

No, actually the proceedure was relatively easy. I was able to install the new motherboard in 10 minutes! Faster than when I have installed mobos in other cases because the dell case had a nice mounting scheme. I don't know where you heard about it being "risky" to hook up the LED and power connectors. It's just like with any other case, if you didn't hook up the power button to its proper place but instead to the power LED then nothing happens, just like with any ordinary case. Yes I CAN see a risk using dell's supplied PSU but it would be stupid to use a 200Watt PSU anyways excluding the fact it's proprietary. So yes I CAN agree in saying that it would be much too difficult in hooking up a dell PSU to a standard MOBO but not for the power connectors.

Now about the Hidden partition, if your telling me about the 5MB partition then yes that does exist and I do know about it. I heard the only reason why they had it (Which is actually true in this case) is that it prevents n00bs from installing thier dell HDDs in other systems (which I first noticed when repairing one). But this could easily be overridden by simply deleting the partition and other left over fragments from the dell software. I don't know though about it being able to fully restore your partition with out requiring CD's like on the Vaio series laptops but the prevention thing I have been able to experience up front. Then agian I have never had to use the restore discs on dell machines (a plus about dell PCS) is because M$ windows operating systems practically have all the drivers you need soon as you install windows so there is no need to have them, unlike Vaio PC's where they use extremely proprietary hardware.

 

[pillage2001]

Originally posted by: Smithy

Originally posted by: goku2100
Why do you say Maxtor is the most worthless HDD manufacturer? Tell me, what IS better? Because I know the WD drive heads explode after a while so they are out of the equation.

Seagate are better. Maxtor is okay. Hitachi/IBM are the worst

Based on your left or right nut???

 

[Chau]

ibm's are the worst

 

[imported_goku]

Heard that if you keep IBMs in a perfect environment, they will serve you well otherwise they will die. I have a 14GB IBM drive and a few others that have died way before my 2GB/3Gb Quantum Drives in my Vaio PCV 120 systems. (Pentium 200MHZ MMX)

 

[Buz2b]

Originally posted by: goku2100
No, actually the proceedure was relatively easy. I was able to install the new motherboard in 10 minutes! Faster than when I have installed mobos in other cases because the dell case had a nice mounting scheme. I don't know where you heard about it being "risky" to hook up the LED and power connectors. It's just like with any other case, if you didn't hook up the power button to its proper place but instead to the power LED then nothing happens, just like with any ordinary case. Yes I CAN see a risk using dell's supplied PSU but it would be stupid to use a 200Watt PSU anyways excluding the fact it's proprietary. So yes I CAN agree in saying that it would be much too difficult in hooking up a dell PSU to a standard MOBO but not for the power connectors.

Now about the Hidden partition, if your telling me about the 5MB partition then yes that does exist and I do know about it. I heard the only reason why they had it (Which is actually true in this case) is that it prevents n00bs from installing thier dell HDDs in other systems (which I first noticed when repairing one). But this could easily be overridden by simply deleting the partition and other left over fragments from the dell software. I don't know though about it being able to fully restore your partition with out requiring CD's like on the Vaio series laptops but the prevention thing I have been able to experience up front. Then agian I have never had to use the restore discs on dell machines (a plus about dell PCS) is because M$ windows operating systems practically have all the drivers you need soon as you install windows so there is no need to have them, unlike Vaio PC's where they use extremely proprietary hardware.

First, the hidden partition is not there to prevent installation in a non-Dell system; nor could it. It is nothing but a hidden partition on the HDD. It cannot be "activated" to prevent anything. It's strictly a fall back system should the CDROM go south or if you lose your Restore CD's, etc. This would essentially restore the OS/Programs back to the "out of box" state. If I remember correctly it is accessed via a command prompt and key word or password. I't not somethiing Dell tells you about unless it is needed but it is there. As I mentioned, you can confirm this and find out more if you ask around on the DellTalk Forum.
As to the MB switchout, I stand by what I said. Either you are not being forthcoming or perhaps just not understanding. The I/O ports on a non-Dell MB will not match those on a Dell case. And those on a non-Dell case are usually not the pop-out and replace type. So, you would first have to overcome that. Second, the PS rewire would be a monumental task. Installing a standard PS would of course be the best way to go but buying a new quality PS can be just as costly as a new case and makes the process less appealing. As for the case connectors, I lumped those in with the whole electrical/PS process. I realize they are simple switches.
Part of the confusion stems from your not mentioning that you also replaced the PS when you installed the retail MB. From that, I ASSumed you didn't, hence my serious doubts about your upgrades viability. Second, I was equally alarmed when you said you put the older Dell MB into the newer one. That is not a simple "switch out". There are a great many things to be concerned with such as hardware drivers, etc. I do not think that such a switch would be a reliable way to "isolate" the problems either.
As to it being "silly" to keep the 200 watt Dell PS, I think you will find that their smallish PS's do have excellent ratings for their size and are of ample wattage to run the systems they're installed in, including added hardware. However, a new MB with differring power requirements, not to mention the power needs of a new processor would indeed create some additional power needs.
Next, you made mention that the one system seemed to always be problematic according to the "employess". Obviously, this was a system used in a work enviorment with more than one person using it. Not a recipe for success. I've fixed more systems from work places than I can remember and the bulk of them were simply the result of what I call "User-Idiocy". Simply restoring that system to the original factory state via restore disks or the hidden partition would have most likely solved any "problems" on that machine. The only other common problem I've seen in these is a blocked air supply. A few shots of canned air "fixes" those right up. LOL!!
Long story short, you most likely do not have any sort of Lemon on your hands. If you want to isolate whatever problems do exist on them, restore them to factory condition and go from there. If you don't have the CD's or have blown out the hidden partition, you can always get the drivers needed from Dell's web site and use your own OS disk. It is important to use Dell's drivers and not MS ones; they are not one and the same. Until you do that, it would be difficult to troubleshoot the hardware. BTW, that would be the exact methodology that Dell Support (such as it is) would use.

 

[Elcs]

Originally posted by: MDE

Originally posted by: goku2100
Why do you say Maxtor is the most worthless HDD manufacturer? Tell me, what IS better? Because I know the WD drive heads explode after a while so they are out of the equation.

WD drive heads exploding? I'll call BS here, The 2GB WD drive my Dad got with his blazing P120 is still working to this day AFAIK, and he's got a 100GB WD drive that's still kicking, as well as my pair of Raptors that are still kicking.

Originally posted by: CraigRT

Originally posted by: goku2100
BTW all of the HDDs in these 3 systems died after 3 years and were replaced with better ones (Maxtor drives).

That's probably the root of all evil.. most worthless HDD manufacturer ever.

A few nice quotes to pick at.

I have a Seagate 420mb HDD working perfectly since i got it over 9 years ago. My 9 year old Diamond Maxtor 1.7 Gb HDD is going strong as well. My 2 year WD SE is purring like a kitten, quite and efficient.

The only HDD's Ive personally ever seen dead are IBM's. It just happened to be one of the notorious Death Stars which actually lasted quite a long time after the major Death Star concern appeared on these boards.

Even the closest to perfect human makes mistakes. Manufacturers employ humans so mistakes can be made.

 

[imported_goku]

What ever, I still think you have no idea what I have gone through just to be ABLE to isolate the issue to simply the motherboard. I infact have used the D333 system which was used by the employees and I was shocked at how slow it was. You apparently have this fixation with it simply a bad OS install (meaning that windows has gone stale).

I told you already that I have installed these systems with numerous different components including but not exclusively: Hard disk drives Ranging from 5Gb to 80GB, Ram PC66 to 133, IDE Cables 40pin 40 conductor to Round 40pin 80Conductor, Removing all peripherals and PCI devices/different config including different components, Optical Drives CD to DVD and video cards PCI to Low End AGP (TNT2) to High end AGP Radeon 9800Pro all proving that the components inside are not what is causing the problem but simply the motherboard. That D333 would take about 1 Hour to boot up on it's default configuration and 50 Minutes on an optimial config (80GIG drive 7200 RPM 8MB cache 40pin 80 con) running windows 98! I dont believe in restore discs for dell systems because dells start up much slower with thier default crap then a fresh install of windows (I think applies to all). I obviously get the latest drivers for the mobo, including chipset and other drivers....

Where do you get off saying that dell cases (Before P4 to my knowledge) aren't compatible with standard IO ports of other mobos? All you have to do is remove the old mobo, pop off the I/O MOBO Window on the case and install the new mobo. There was no welding or anything, I just removed it like as if I was building the case in reverse (Instead of adding the components 1 by 1, I removed them) Peice of cake! And for the HDD thing, yes the hidden partition thing does prevent it to be installed in other machines, either intentionally or unintentionally (I still dont know about the restore thing because it's a measly 5MB parition and I know it can't replace 1GB of info (Unless it must have a image of the Registry,HDD etc..). Its very obvious you have never done a proceedure like this because otherwise you would know how simple it is to install the new motherboard in a dell case pre-p4.

One more note: About popping the old MB into the newer dell system (XPS R450 sysem board into XPS T850). Yes it was very simple, so simple I didnt even have to reactivate windows! All you had to do was remove the power connectors, IDE cables, FDD cables, Power cable (lumped together thing), PCI devices etc, then remove the board and switch, and do the exact process in reverse. I booted to windows XP (Yes I was using XP but I have done this exact thing with a 98 system and was just as easy) Windows XP Detected all the hardware beautifully, ran the Si-Soft sandra benchmark and improved my score by 90%. This is simply a case of I guess I should say "Lemon MOBOS" but I want to say PCs because other components (not all) have died and it's pretty disappointing to see this.

Edit: I guess I wasnt being clear enough when I said "installed Windows XP" because what I meant was that XP was on the T850 system and also on the XPS R450 system but was not installed on the D333. I said I had Windows 98 on the D333 system, its a little hard to read but if you look carefully, you will see thats it never mentions it being installed on the D333 system.

 

[Buz2b]

Originally posted by: goku2100
What ever, I still think you have no idea what I have gone through just to be ABLE to isolate the issue to simply the motherboard. I infact have used the D333 system which was used by the employees and I was shocked at how slow it was. You apparently have this fixation with it simply a bad OS install (meaning that windows has gone stale).

I told you already that I have installed these systems with numerous different components including but not exclusively: Hard disk drives Ranging from 5Gb to 80GB, Ram PC66 to 133, IDE Cables 40pin 40 conductor to Round 40pin 80Conductor, Removing all peripherals and PCI devices/different config including different components, Optical Drives CD to DVD and video cards PCI to Low End AGP (TNT2) to High end AGP Radeon 9800Pro all proving that the components inside are not what is causing the problem but simply the motherboard. That D333 would take about 1 Hour to boot up on it's default configuration and 50 Minutes on an optimial config (80GIG drive 7200 RPM 8MB cache 40pin 80 con) running windows 98! I dont believe in restore discs for dell systems because dells start up much slower with thier default crap then a fresh install of windows (I think applies to all). I obviously get the latest drivers for the mobo, including chipset and other drivers....

Where do you get off saying that dell cases (Before P4 to my knowledge) aren't compatible with standard IO ports of other mobos? All you have to do is remove the old mobo, pop off the I/O MOBO Window on the case and install the new mobo. There was no welding or anything, I just removed it like as if I was building the case in reverse (Instead of adding the components 1 by 1, I removed them) Peice of cake! And for the HDD thing, yes the hidden partition thing does prevent it to be installed in other machines, either intentionally or unintentionally (I still dont know about the restore thing because it's a measly 5MB parition and I know it can't replace 1GB of info (Unless it must have a image of the Registry,HDD etc..). Its very obvious you have never done a proceedure like this because otherwise you would know how simple it is to install the new motherboard in a dell case pre-p4.

One more note: About popping the old MB into the newer dell system (XPS R450 sysem board into XPS T850). Yes it was very simple, so simple I didnt even have to reactivate windows! All you had to do was remove the power connectors, IDE cables, FDD cables, Power cable (lumped together thing), PCI devices etc, then remove the board and switch, and do the exact process in reverse. I booted to windows XP (Yes I was using XP but I have done this exact thing with a 98 system and was just as easy) Windows XP Detected all the hardware beautifully, ran the Si-Soft sandra benchmark and improved my score by 90%. This is simply a case of I guess I should say "Lemon MOBOS" but I want to say PCs because other components (not all) have died and it's pretty disappointing to see this.

Well, you finally proved yourself as not being exactly truthfull. If you re-read my posts, I wasn't setting you up for this either; I was trying to understand what you had said or were saying. Actually I don't even know where to start but I will try.
Point 1: You said I had a " fixation with it simply a bad OS install (meaning that windows has gone stale). " I didn't say that. What I did was recommend that you start at an OS reload in order to trouble shoot the problem. If you want to call that a "fixation" go ahead but it is one of the best ways to start in this kind of problem. If you have any kind of background in system troubleshooting, you would know that this is usually where you start with this sort of problem.
Point 2: I will do a quote on this just to make sure it is correct for you......

I told you already that I have installed these systems with numerous different components including but not exclusively: Hard disk drives Ranging from 5Gb to 80GB, Ram PC66 to 133, IDE Cables 40pin 40 conductor to Round 40pin 80Conductor, Removing all peripherals and PCI devices/different config including different components, Optical Drives CD to DVD and video cards PCI to Low End AGP (TNT2) to High end AGP Radeon 9800Pro all proving that the components inside are not what is causing the problem but simply the motherboard. That D333 would take about 1 Hour to boot up on it's default configuration and 50 Minutes on an optimial config (80GIG drive 7200 RPM 8MB cache 40pin 80 con) running windows 98! I dont believe in restore discs for dell systems because dells start up much slower with thier default crap then a fresh install of windows (I think applies to all). I obviously get the latest drivers for the mobo, including chipset and other drivers....

Just a reminder to you (and anyone else reviewing this thread) you NEVER stated the above information in this thread. That's very apparent to anyone that looks at it. However, now that you have, I will answer you. First of all you make mention NOW that you " I obviously get the latest drivers for the mobo, including chipset and other drivers....". However, in a previous post you stated that,

Then agian I have never had to use the restore discs on dell machines (a plus about dell PCS) is because M$ windows operating systems practically have all the drivers you need soon as you install windows so there is no need to have them,

A big "Oops! on your part there, huh? Since we are having so much fun, let's go to the next one:
Point 3: "Where do you get off saying that dell cases (Before P4 to my knowledge) aren't compatible with standard IO ports of other mobos?" Because the fact is they weren't. This one really shows how "knowledge-lacking you are." It was a well known fact that the Dell cases, specifically the I/O ports and the PS connections, were NOT compatible with standard ATX cases. That's a no-brainer.
Point 4: You talk about loading XP on a Dell XPS D333 System. If you look on this Dell page you will see that this was in fact, NOT SUPPORTED. No, that doesn't mean you couldn't have installed XP on that system as I have done similar upgrades on similar systems, HOWEVER, the idea that the drivers for that system would be included in the XP OS is a joke. It just isn't true. Of course, that's where we come back to your "re" statement" that you quote:

obviously get the latest drivers for the mobo, including chipset and other drivers....

Point 5: Again, I quote:

And for the HDD thing, yes the hidden partition thing does prevent it to be installed in other machines, either intentionally or unintentionally (I still dont know about the restore thing because it's a measly 5MB parition and I know it can't replace 1GB of info (Unless it must have a image of the Registry,HDD etc..)

That's an outright lie! You send me ANY Dell HD and I will guarantee that I can install it on any system I want to, WITHOUT removing the hidden partition. BTW, that's the partition that is ONLY there to restore the system to factory specs. You also say that, " (I still dont know about the restore thing because it's a measly 5MB parition and I know it can't replace 1GB of info (Unless it must have a image of the Registry,HDD etc..). I guess in your INFINITE computer knowledge you have NEVER heard of a compressed image, because that is what it is. Hell, why argue with me here? Why don't you go to the DellTalk site and ask the users there??? They will confirm what I told you. If not, you could make me look silly, right?? Try it! Well, perhaps you shouldn't because you're going to look silly.
Point 6: Again a quote:

Its very obvious you have never done a proceedure like this because otherwise you would know how simple it is to install the new motherboard in a dell case pre-p4.

I've done more "procedures", upgrades, reloads than you could ever count and it's obvious that you have not. When you talk about "pre-P4" cases you are actually talking about the ones that were LESS COMPATIBLE than they are now. Duhhh!!!
Point 7: (Gee, I've never had to go this far with someone so you must have REALLY pissed me off) This is the biggest suspect and for this I must again quote:

One more note: About popping the old MB into the newer dell system (XPS R450 sysem board into XPS T850). Yes it was very simple, so simple I didnt even have to reactivate windows! All you had to do was remove the power connectors, IDE cables, FDD cables, Power cable (lumped together thing), PCI devices etc, then remove the board and switch, and do the exact process in reverse. I booted to windows XP (Yes I was using XP but I have done this exact thing with a 98 system and was just as easy) Windows XP Detected all the hardware beautifully, ran the Si-Soft sandra benchmark and improved my score by 90%. This is simply a case of I guess I should say "Lemon MOBOS" but I want to say PCs because other components (not all) have died and it's pretty disappointing to see this.

.......Where to start. For those that know, the first thing that would cause a problem is that if you install a new MB into an XP system it usually will call for a reactivation. Unless you took the HDD with that (which you didn't say you did but is possible, since you fail to mention many other things). The other main item with XP that calls for a reactivation is the NIC, which again, you didn't say you switched. Especially the NIC because they are coded and referenced with XP. Also, ANY XPS D system (as linked previously) is NOT LISTED on the Dell support site as compatible with an XP upgrade. Yes, I've actually upgraded an AMD 333 system to XP before but it was sort of "painful" and slow, at best. So, where do you think that changing the MB of a Dell 450 system into an XPS 850 system proves a point that there is a "Lemon". I know you backed off from the "Lemon" designation a bit earlier but you seem to be standing by it now. Personally, I never thought I'd come to the defense of Dell systems because I don't think they do a service to PC owners: They make them more dependant on Dell than they do on MS, which is even worse. Trust me, I reinstalled the OS and programs on my Dell Laptop within two days of getting it. And talking about the MB PS cable as the "lumped together thing" is a very telling item. That being the key point of a power connection between a MB and a PS, which is the life-blood of a system, your "lumping together" remark shows a real lack of knowledge.
Point 8: Actually this will be the last one because I think it's pretty plain that you have been exposed. I didn't start out to do so and even backed off for a while but you kept up the BS.
Look, you're entitled to accuse a system of being a lemon. If you do, you should have the proof. If your proof is full of holes, is ripe with misstatements, shows a lack of system knowledge, proves that "standard" troubleshooting steps weren't taken and includes "upgrades that are dubious at best", then perhaps you should cut your losses and GET OVER IT! I really think you should back out of this pathetic thread and take your accusations elsewhere. Perhaps some may think that this is a bit harsh but you have invited it. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and you decided to hang yourself. If you are still reading at this point, I would highly recommend you spend some time on the DellTalk forum. There are a great many knowledgable folks there that may be able to assist you in ACTUALLY solving your problems with your obviously older Dell systems. In fact, you may even find out some better upgrade options there as they do have some users that have a good database for that. I would also recommend that you are more forthcoming in that Forum than you have been here. Spell out the entire list of FACTS, before you make the accusations also. Good luck to you in your "quest".
If you have anything else constructive to add to this thread I will perhaps contribute. Otherwise I will most likely ignore the thread for lack of interest.

 

[cmv]

Originally posted by: goku2100
Why do you say Maxtor is the most worthless HDD manufacturer? Tell me, what IS better? Because I know the WD drive heads explode after a while so they are out of the equation.

ALL hard drive opinions are BS. That is the only truth I know when someone talks about hard drives. They ALL suck at some point. It's just a matter of who sucks least. And that changes on a regular basis.

 

[cmv]

Okay, I read the whole thread. Why are you guys attacking one another? One guy sounds ultra-conservative, the other ultra-non-conservative (liberal? heh) with upgrading Dells. You guys aren't on the same planet here. Whether the 5mb hidden partition stops the hard drive from booting up in a non-Dell system is neither here nor there (I mean really, who gives a flying //ahem//).

The OP clearly states he took out the backplate from the Dell and put in the plate that come with the replacement motherboard. If that was possible, it is no surprise that the I/O ports matched up. So a simple photo of the rear of the case highlighting the backplate is all the "evidence" needed here.

As to XP being support on yadda yadda model Dell. Are you freaking kidding me? Of course Dell is going to say it is unsupported even if it works. They don't want to deal with morons calling in for support on an ancient PC that is nearing end of warranty. They have ZERO incentive to support it. That has ZERO bearing on whether it works or not.

Hrm...

 

[imported_goku]

Read my edit above before making an ass of your self, ass... You see, the problem is you don't take into account that I troubleshooted every possible issue. I know you won't believe me with these benchmarks until I fricken take a screen shot with one particular board's scores and the other's. I know it was a little fuzzy when I was talking about the two operating systems but any halfwit would know that (in the event I DID try with XP) that I tried it with Windows 98 and it TOOK 1 HOUR to boot. You simply won't admit that it's possible that dell has been selling lemons. I mean you wont even take a "possible" into account because your so damn stuck with you beliefs that dell wouldn't make a few lemons.

It also appears that you have trouble reading paragraphs that aren't double spaced so for now on in this

thread, I will write double spaced so you can read everything clearly.

Point 1: You said I had a " fixation with it simply a bad OS install (meaning that windows has gone stale). " I didn't say that. What I did was recommend that you start at an OS reload in order to trouble shoot the problem. If you want to call that a "fixation" go ahead but it is one of the best ways to start in this kind of problem. If you have any kind of background in system troubleshooting, you would know that this is usually where you start with this sort of problem.

You did not say an OS reload, you said that I should use dell's recovery scheme. I don't need YOU to tell

me how to troubleshoot my machine when I clearly know what I am doing. If I see some one who is able

to build thier own system and have talked about fixing/upgrading other systems, then I should pretty damn

well assume that they know how to "troubleshoot" a system. Don't be giving me this "I'm a noob sh!t and

don't know squat about anything bull crap so I can talk down to him and tell him to restore his system". I

already know this, the way you comment about EVERY thing I say, you make it seem like I should have to

explain every damn step I did with my "troubleshooting" and where I aquired this knowledge. All

experienced computer users know that you try every possible troubleshooting step before blaming it on

the hardware. Lets end the discussion about the nitpicky sh!t and get back to the topic, the topic is: Lemon Computers?

Here is what I was inferring and why I believe that dell has lemons.

1. I have at least 3 systems I can name that have very poor peformance relative to other similar or older

models of that brand.

2. I have done practically everything to diagnose the issue from installing fresh drivers to installing

a copy of a different operating system to changing all the devices hooked up to the motherboard seeing if

it's strictly because of the previous setup. Please take into account that I said "to", insinuating that many

other steps were taken in between those extreme ends of the spectrum. Dont comment..

3. Installing a late 1998 Motherboard designed for a PII 450MHZ processor in a newer early- mid 2000

system designed for a Pentium III 850MHZ Processor. This is assuming that this system is suppose to out

perform the earlier 450MHZ based system. But unfortunatly this system performs WORSE than the

previous system. I do not have benchmarks for these systems before these issues started to occur

because these systems did not belong to me. But here is what I can prove, I take the motherboard from

the XPS R450, install it in the XPS T850 with every thing the same BUT the motherboard (Meaning that all

the components and all the software installed on the HDD etc.. IS THE SAME. This INCLUDES THE

PROCESSOR!, benchmark it with SiSoft Sandra and do the Arithmatic test (tests CPU) and get the same

score as I did with the old board, I then do a memory benchmark and increase a score from 402MB/s for

the XPS T850 to 700MB/s on the XPS R450 Board. Agian I will emphasize that I was using all the exact

same hardware installed with the same HDD and operating system etc.. Did not reformat or anything.

4. I have used computer systems that performed far better than this peice of crap system and I have to

say, the D333 is a TRUE lemon. The other systems may be semi lemons because thier hardware failed

way later, but this system has more problems then I can name! When I recieved this system, I was very

surprised to see how slow it was and quickly gave up troubleshooting through the OS so I did a fresh

install and then the hard disk drive failed, meaning that I was getting write errors so when i tried to format

again (restart the PC, the HDD finally died). Installed a new HDD and continued the install of Windows 98

undisturbed. Ran the PC again with of course the latest drivers but still it took an hour to start up so I

changed the ram in the system completely but still it took for ever. I then said, "If I'm going to change

any more, I'm going to change everything" so thats what I did. I changed everything and agian did

another install of Windows 98 but this time SE, with higher quality components installed including ram and

HDD. But STILL the system took an hour to boot up and I thought this was completely ludacris that it

would take a 333MHZ system 1 hour to start up. So I took the processor out and put it in a Vaio PCV 240

and the VAIO ran faster than it did before! (Because the PCV 240 is a 300MHZ based system). So don't

tell me that this system is NOT a lemon because it is, BTW the ram that originally came with the system

died wayyy before I recieved the system and that is why it didn't fail on me during my tests.



I have much more to say, but I am very tired and if your going to be an asshole and continue to poke and

prod every damn thing I say like a lawyer then by all means BRING IT ON B!TCH! (Includes the Dell HDD

and my mother's system).

P.S I shouldn't have to f-ing describe EVERY damn thing I had to do JUST to prove that these systems are

lemons, I'm not writing a business proposal or trying to create a lawsuit or anything like that. I was in my

mind trying to find out if anyone has been noticing this issue. I don't NEED your "help", because I DIDN'T

ask for it. All I wanted was an opinion from a wide range of users to know if they have

experienced/noticed symptoms like these CHRIST!

Look, you're entitled to accuse a system of being a lemon. If you do, you should have the proof. If your proof is full of holes, is ripe with misstatements, shows a lack of system knowledge, proves that "standard" troubleshooting steps weren't taken and includes "upgrades that are dubious at best", then perhaps you should cut your losses and GET OVER IT! I really think you should back out of this pathetic thread and take your accusations elsewhere. Perhaps some may think that this is a bit harsh but you have invited it. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and you decided to hang yourself. If you are still reading at this point, I would highly recommend you spend some time on the DellTalk forum. There are a great many knowledgable folks there that may be able to assist you in ACTUALLY solving your problems with your obviously older Dell systems. In fact, you may even find out some better upgrade options there as they do have some users that have a good database for that. I would also recommend that you are more forthcoming in that Forum than you have been here. Spell out the entire list of FACTS, before you make the accusations also. Good luck to you in your "quest".

:| What a way to ruin a b-day you f-ing asshole! Yes a B-Day because today is my birthday and I'm glad

to know some stubborn halfwit asshole won't just admit that it's damn possible to upgrade a dell system

with ease and that all these systems are clearly lemons (Obviously the XPS R450 is NOT).:|

 

[Buz2b]

Originally posted by: cmv
Okay, I read the whole thread. Why are you guys attacking one another? One guy sounds ultra-conservative, the other ultra-non-conservative (liberal? heh) with upgrading Dells. You guys aren't on the same planet here. Whether the 5mb hidden partition stops the hard drive from booting up in a non-Dell system is neither here nor there (I mean really, who gives a flying //ahem//).

The OP clearly states he took out the backplate from the Dell and put in the plate that come with the replacement motherboard. If that was possible, it is no surprise that the I/O ports matched up. So a simple photo of the rear of the case highlighting the backplate is all the "evidence" needed here.

As to XP being support on yadda yadda model Dell. Are you freaking kidding me? Of course Dell is going to say it is unsupported even if it works. They don't want to deal with morons calling in for support on an ancient PC that is nearing end of warranty. They have ZERO incentive to support it. That has ZERO bearing on whether it works or not.

Hrm...

While I appreciate a "fresh look" at the thread, I would point out a couple of items of interest. First, the previous Dell systems, for the most part, were not the kind of "pop one I/O plate off and install another" systems. Yes, a simple link to his own upgrade with pictures would be welcome. Even if that happened though, there are too many unanswered questions and/or unsubstansiated claims made by the OP. I did not "attack" him until this kind of crap came up and he called into question things I had said. In fact, I tried to assist and avoid the problem at first.
In regards to your statement about Dell not supporting some drivers in XP and having "ZERO" bearing on this issue, I would respectfully dissagree. That would have a very LARGE bearing on this "Lemon Computer" issue. If you don't have the correct drivers loaded that are supported by your hardware vendor (we'll say that the hardware vendor is Dell for now; no matter how you want to argue the issue), AND the OS, then you cannot complain about it's performance. That is a cut and dried item. I will not call into question your experience or his on similar matters but just basic logic would agree here.
Lastly, we are not on the same "planet" because I don't think he is being forthcoming. Perhaps what I should have done was just forget this thread in light of that seeming lack of truth. Hindsight is always 20/20. However, I'm the kind of person that's like a rabid dog when it comes to someone telling the truth. Things have just not added up in this thread. Please reread my last post if you have further doubts.
Bottom line: I think he could have indeed swapped out a Dell Case/MB; anything is possible. Has he done all he claims to have done to "troubleshoot" the other systems? Very Doubtful. The big "tell" here is that he doesn't know about the hidden partition and claims it to be something that keeps the HDD from being installed on a non-Dell system. The latter part is a joke because it's simply not true and anyone that had done any sort of extensive work on a Dell System would most certainly known about the hidden patition.If you notice, he does claim to have done extensive work on Dell systems. That's a hard and fast fact he cannot avoid.
The second "bottom line" is that he continues to think that reloading the OS/original drivers is some sort of technique I am fixated on that has no importance with this thread. That?s also a joke. Anyone that has any idea of how to troubleshoot hardware KNOWS that you have to have the OS drivers properly installed before you can objectively troubleshoot that hardware. To do otherwise is simply silly.

I'm not sure what else I can do here. I have pointed out the inconsistancies of the OP. I have also tried earlier to assist. Unfortunately it is very difficult to assist someone that does not give you solid info as to what has happened and/or what they have done to those systems.
I absolutely stand on each and everything I have said. I think the OP has not been so forthcoming and perpaps hoped to start a "Dell Lemon" thread for reasons unknown. While I would not normally stand fast and defend Dell, I think that truth is more important here.
The OP has made too many inconsistant remarks to be believed. I would say that SOME of what he has said could be true but because of the doubts about the rest, I don't think it would be easy to assist any further.

To the OP: I have not and do not have anything personal against you. I just don't know what your thought process was that prompted this thread and/or continued it in this form. There are too many inconsistencies here. If you really need help with a Dell System, I would recommend you take a good hard look at the DellTalk Forums. They have good people that are more informed on Dell Systems and likely can assist you.

I also recommend that you continue to keep up with AT forums. Bottom line is that the AT forums are the best there are; bar none.

 

[Buz2b]

Holy Sh*t, you make it way too easy for me. Did you forget to take some pills or something?? Look, I stand by what I said; Period. In addition I would invite anyone just now looking at this thread to read back on just what this poster has said or NOT SAID!
Second, you said,

P.S I shouldn't have to f-ing describe EVERY damn thing I had to do JUST to prove that these systems are

lemons, I'm not writing a business proposal or trying to create a lawsuit or anything like that. I was in my

mind trying to find out if anyone has been noticing this issue. I don't NEED your "help", because I DIDN'T

ask for it. All I wanted was an opinion from a wide range of users to know if they have

experienced/noticed symptoms like these CHRIST!

(BTW, don't call me Christ!)
First, saying that you shouldn't have to "f-ing describe EVERY damn thing I had to do JUST to prove that these systems are lemons," is an absolute JOKE. If you want to cry Lemon, you'd better damned well have the facts and figures to back it up; no matter on what site you post. That is simply idiocy!
Now, before your next attack, you should first realize that ANYTIME you post here at AT, with a problem, (and that's what you did) you are inviting ANYONE to post and/or offer suggestions. If you can't deal with that, get out!! You ASKED FOR IT when you posted. As to finding out if anyone else had similar issues, just read through the first few replies to your OP. Folks reply and try to help, which was EXACTLY what I tried to do originally. You wasted a whole lot of space with your double spacing fun/crap but if it made you feel good, go for it. LOL!!! It also made you look like an a$$bite.
And yet you continue to do the CYA thing and list things that you "say" you did to troubleshoot; almost ALL OF WHICH YOU NEVER MENTIONED in your previous, much less the ORIGINAL post. HELLO, GET A CLUE!! If you want help here on AT you need to first list the specs of your system and then HONESTLY LIST IN DETAIL all that you did to troubleshoot and/or did to solve the problem. Obviously you did not do this until after the fact that someone calls you on it. So now you complain when someone calls you on the carpet for it???!!!! You are a riot!
So, you either do not know the standard method used to ask for help (or as you say, confirm a problem or "Lemon") or you choose to ignore it. Either way, you are clueless. I think the clues that are starting to be clear are nailing you as someone that doesn't really know what they are doing and backtrack their posts to cover themselves. It happens all too often and the downside of it is that if you had been honest with all of us in the first place, you might have had a solution to your system problems. Now, you'll never know.
This quote just proves your "illness":

I have much more to say, but I am very tired and if your going to be an asshole and continue to poke and prod every damn thing I say like a lawyer then by all means BRING IT ON B!TCH! (Includes the Dell HDD and my mother's system).

I will not dignify the "BRING IT ON BITCH!" remark. However, look back on my earlier posts and you will find my genuine offers of suggestions to solve your mother's system problems. You are truly losing it here and need to take a chill pill.
I've simply "brought on" questions that should have been asked and (if we can decide you are now telling the truth) gotten you to bring out a hell of a lot more info as to the system specs and at least some of the things you "claim" you have done to solve the problem.
However, looking at your last post, perhaps you DO NOT need our help here on AT. Perhaps you are too good for that and have decided on your own that you have a couple of lemons on your hands. Terrific! Go for it and submit your "facts" to Dell and see where that gets you. If you can get them to stop laughing long enough, I'm sure that they will tell you where you can put your "proof". LOL!!:laugh:

 

[imported_goku]

You are clearly an asshole, you were not trying to help me genuinely and you would assume nothing. F-

you. I will talk about this when I get more time but for now, it's time for me to go to work.

Edit: now that I have more sleep, I can reply. Despite me writing EVERYTHING I DESCRIBED DOUBLE

SPACED, he refuses to re-read it more than once. It's a very good idea to re-read things more than once

because then you don't look like an ass, as you're doing now. Even when I DO repeat things I have

posted numerous times earlier, you still comment on them like as if I never said it. I'm not going to

repeat/rephrase any thing else I write because it's simply the reposter's fault. I'd like to end this because

you are useless and I don't need your uninformed help. Lets once more get back on topic, has anyone

noticed some bad motherboards that have come with thier dell pcs? Maybe if anyone here has noticed

they have slow performance on a dell pc, they should do some extensive troubleshooting and see if the

board is the culprit because the motherboard is a VERY important component.

Edit2: I have double spaced this post because I want to make it EASY for YOU to read it because your too

incompentent to read things that are single spaced.

 

[imported_Phil]

Originally posted by: goku2100
You are clearly an asshole, you were not trying to help me genuinely and you would assume nothing. F-you. I will talk about this when I get more time but for now, it's time for me to go to work.

/me quietly unfolds lawn chair.

 

[Buz2b]

Originally posted by: goku2100
You are clearly an asshole, you were not trying to help me genuinely and you would assume nothing. F-you. I will talk about this when I get more time but for now, it's time for me to go to work.

Edit: now that I have more sleep, I can reply. Despite me writing EVERYTHING I DESCRIBED DOUBLE SPACED, he refuses to re-read it more than once. It's a very good idea to re-read things more than once because then you don't look like an ass, as you're doing now. Even when I DO repeat things I have posted numerous times earlier, you still comment on them like as if I never said it. I'm not going to repeat/rephrase any thing else I write because it's simply the reposter's fault. I'd like to end this because you are useless and I don't need your uninformed help. Lets once more get back on topic, has anyone noticed some bad motherboards that have come with thier dell pcs? Maybe if anyone here has noticed they have slow performance on a dell pc, they should do some extensive troubleshooting and see if the board is the culprit because the motherboard is a VERY important component.

My, my, my, what have we here? Methinks someone is having a temper tantrum. Rantings of an idiot. Maybe your mommy should wash out your mouth with soap! You resort to such crap when you get frustrated because someone calls you on your BS.
Back on subject..............................................hmmm, I here the deafening sound of SILENCE! Notice how no one is posting to your subject? Get a clue! If you want help or are looking for responses here at AT, you must first leave the BS at the door and then act like a civil human being. Otherwise, go play in the OT forum. There's lots of threads there that will let you practice your language and BS. (No offense to all OT posters because most of them are much better behaved AND INFORMED than you)