Lesson learned: Don't try to cheap out on brakes.

[phucheneh]

Just FWIW here people, I have used Centric's premium rotors on my Subaru's several times and they have all done well.

I'd never buy the bottom of the line ANYTHING for brakes though. Same goes for tires. These are the two things that keep your car on the road and where you do or do not want it to go. I don't understand how some people don't get the importance of this. (Not picking at OP, just saying in general)

Want to put a cheap spark plug or cheap oil in? Sure, whatever, it's just money if you have worse fuel economy, have to replace it 1 month later, or even cause damage to your engine. But if your tires or brakes fail, the risk of personal injury is significantly higher. There are enough ways to die out there, thank you very much...

Since you are a reasonable person, and your post happens to bring up an important point...

Tires are slightly different to me, since there are vast differences among them. It's often not even that well-correlated with price- I've seen expensive tires that suck, and cheap tires that do rather well for your average econocar.

The thing is, though, I think your opinion on critical versus non-critical components is kind of backwards. Manufacturers are free to make shitty engine parts. If an OEM part fails, and you replace it with a cheap aftermarket part that also fails, are you going to be able to sue the aftermarket manufacturer? Highly unlikely. All they're going to do is point torwards the failure of the OEM part, if anything.

But here's the important distinction: Who here has witnessed a 'rotor failure?' I haven't, and I've never met anyone who has. With undamaged parts installed competently, it just does not happen. A rotor cracking in half under braking would be an instant opportunity for a million dollar lawsuit.

Again, people. It's just a chunk of iron. If you want to say that some manufacturer adds in a fraction of a percentage point of nickel or chromium or something, and that that has any kind of real-world impact, you need to provide the proof. If there are no scientific studies on the subject, then quit spreading bullshit misinformation under the label of 'fact.'

I know it's hard for some people to make small distinctions in the way things are stated (honestly not trying to be insulting there; we all have our strengths and being an analytical asshole fuck happens to be one of mine). But don't get on MY ass for putting forth speculation on a subject that, so far, has turned up no tangible proof one way or the other, and furthermore, don't present your own speculation as factual information. End PSA.

 

[Viperoni]

But here's the important distinction: Who here has witnessed a 'rotor failure?' I haven't, and I've never met anyone who has. With undamaged parts installed competently, it just does not happen. A rotor cracking in half under braking would be an instant opportunity for a million dollar lawsuit.

I've had a cross drilled rotor crack between the holes. That was after only 3 months and 10k of use. I'm sure if I kept it on or used it on the track, things would have gotten worse.

 

[phucheneh]

I've had a cross drilled rotor crack between the holes. That was after only 3 months and 10k of use. I'm sure if I kept it on or used it on the track, things would have gotten worse.

Slightly different. You had a rotor that someone drilled holes in. That is a bad idea, and it commonly causes cracking. I've still never heard of one coming apart, though.

'Real' cross-drilled rotors do not have the holes put in them after the fact. The holes are present in the casting.

 

[Howard]

Slightly different. You had a rotor that someone drilled holes in. That is a bad idea, and it commonly causes cracking. I've still never heard of one coming apart, though.

'Real' cross-drilled rotors do not have the holes put in them after the fact. The holes are present in the casting.

If the holes are cast in, why are they called cross-drilled?

 

[phucheneh]

If the holes are cast in, why are they called cross-drilled?

I dunno. I guess 'cross has-round-holes-cast-into-it' sounded kind of stupid compared to the simplicity of 'cross drilled.' Also, after casting, rotors have to be machined. I'm guessing said cast holes are probably cleaned up by drilling. Removing a slight bit of extra material is a lot different that taking a solid cast part and drilling holes clear through it.

Or, I can just reply with...why do we call the things that dampen the oscillation of springs 'shock absorbers'?

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Slightly different. You had a rotor that someone drilled holes in. That is a bad idea, and it commonly causes cracking. I've still never heard of one coming apart, though.

'Real' cross-drilled rotors do not have the holes put in them after the fact. The holes are present in the casting.

WTF are you talking about... I swear... the stories you hear from your buds at the shop are not facts. Some cross drilled rotors are cast that way, but the VAST majority are drilled in a special rotary press used just for that purpose.


I have firsthand had 2 solid rotors get surface cracks (BOTH were cheap lifetime warranty junk), and have seen it at least 5-6 other times on other people's cars. Almost all were cheap autozone/advance lifetime warranty rotors. One was OEM toyota and was a situation of abuse.

I seriously question your 'brake change' experience if you have never seen a rotor with surface cracks on it, as it's somewhat common.




And just a heads up... Firsthand experience in a 'garage' situation doesn't require scientifically tested proof. I have seen on numerous occasions where napa premium or OEM rotors (same brakes pads) gave noticeably better stopping power AND feel. Was it significant? No. But again, when you're talking about ~120ft of stopping distance, a 5% difference can literally mean life or death or at least thousands in repairs and headache.

We've gone through this in other threads, and have taken the time to lookup the material and weights of the rotor, and there is a difference between the cheap autozone/advance stuff and oem/napa.

Again.. just because you don't have customers come back does not automatically mean that they're the same quality.. What a ridiculous assumption.

 

[Howard]

Or, I can just reply with...why do we call the things that dampen the oscillation of springs 'shock absorbers'?

Because obviously they absorb shocks by converting the kinetic energy to thermal energy?

??

 

[jagec]

Again, people. It's just a chunk of iron.

That's a pretty ignorant statement. Metal quality is extremely process-dependent. That's why China had so many problems with their "steel" production during the Great Leap Forward. There are many, MANY ways to screw up a solid piece of metal.

 

[phucheneh]

WTF are you talking about... I swear... the stories you hear from your buds at the shop are not facts. Some cross drilled rotors are cast that way, but the VAST majority are drilled in a special rotary press used just for that purpose.


I have firsthand had 2 solid rotors get surface cracks (BOTH were cheap lifetime warranty junk), and have seen it at least 5-6 other times on other people's cars. Almost all were cheap autozone/advance lifetime warranty rotors. One was OEM toyota and was a situation of abuse.

I seriously question your 'brake change' experience if you have never seen a rotor with surface cracks on it, as it's somewhat common.




And just a heads up... Firsthand experience in a 'garage' situation doesn't require scientifically tested proof. I have seen on numerous occasions where napa premium or OEM rotors (same brakes pads) gave noticeably better stopping power AND feel. Was it significant? No. But again, when you're talking about ~120ft of stopping distance, a 5% difference can literally mean life or death or at least thousands in repairs and headache.

We've gone through this in other threads, and have taken the time to lookup the material and weights of the rotor, and there is a difference between the cheap autozone/advance stuff and oem/napa.

Again.. just because you don't have customers come back does not automatically mean that they're the same quality.. What a ridiculous assumption.

You.

Are.

Mentally.

Retarded.

Go.

Away.

 

[phucheneh]

That's a pretty ignorant statement. Metal quality is extremely process-dependent. That's why China had so many problems with their "steel" production during the Great Leap Forward. There are many, MANY ways to screw up a solid piece of metal.

Notice how we have these things called 'words.' And that 'iron,' 'steel,' and 'metal' are all different ones with different meanings.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Notice how we have these things called 'words.' And that 'iron,' 'steel,' and 'metal' are all different ones with different meanings.

Ugh you give me a headache. I hope you don't work on people's cars with this elitist know-it-all (but totally wrong) attitude.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

That's a pretty ignorant statement. Metal quality is extremely process-dependent. That's why China had so many problems with their "steel" production during the Great Leap Forward. There are many, MANY ways to screw up a solid piece of metal.

He reminds me an awful lot of inflate to sidewall guy.......

 

[jagec]

Notice how we have these things called 'words.' And that 'iron,' 'steel,' and 'metal' are all different ones with different meanings.

Are you trying to say that iron is not a metal, or that iron is the only metal whose quality is independent of processing?

I'm not sure that I agree with either of those statements.

 

[wirednuts]

WTF are you talking about... I swear... the stories you hear from your buds at the shop are not facts. Some cross drilled rotors are cast that way, but the VAST majority are drilled in a special rotary press used just for that purpose.


I have firsthand had 2 solid rotors get surface cracks (BOTH were cheap lifetime warranty junk), and have seen it at least 5-6 other times on other people's cars. Almost all were cheap autozone/advance lifetime warranty rotors. One was OEM toyota and was a situation of abuse.

I seriously question your 'brake change' experience if you have never seen a rotor with surface cracks on it, as it's somewhat common.




And just a heads up... Firsthand experience in a 'garage' situation doesn't require scientifically tested proof. I have seen on numerous occasions where napa premium or OEM rotors (same brakes pads) gave noticeably better stopping power AND feel. Was it significant? No. But again, when you're talking about ~120ft of stopping distance, a 5% difference can literally mean life or death or at least thousands in repairs and headache.

We've gone through this in other threads, and have taken the time to lookup the material and weights of the rotor, and there is a difference between the cheap autozone/advance stuff and oem/napa.

Again.. just because you don't have customers come back does not automatically mean that they're the same quality.. What a ridiculous assumption.

i agree completely

i will state again, i think if you want to save money on a brake job then it is ok to use cheap rotors because the pads are going to make more of a difference. but that does not mean that all rotors are the same, that is just silly. that implies that chemistry doesnt matter. even if they were all "just the same chunks of iron" you can have big variances in its properties just by the process each rotor is made.

besides. just buy a $20 rotor and a $60 rotor at the same time. compare first hand. its not to hard to tell which is which.

 

[deadken]

...

What I eventually found out was that my $13 rotors were not of the quality that Centric would normally sell. From the research I had done I knew that Centric's C-Tek rotors were an acceptable part and that is why I decided to place an order for them when a good deal came up. I wasn't expecting them to be gold plated or stop my car like carbon ceramics. Please feel free to continue with your assumption that I need a lecture on the finer points of the manufacturing process of a brake rotor. You've also just saved me what would have been thousands of dollars in psychologists bills as well. Now, can you tell me if they make a pill that can stop me from being such a drama queen?

You can believe that the parts you received were unsafe all you want. It's cool. I also think that it is fine to have a back-and-forth about our differing views. Unfortunately, I'm still not convinced that the parts you received were unsafe (well, any more unsafe than you'd expect for a sub $20 rotor). They were clearly 'acceptable'.

All in all, I'm glad you learned from the experience and I hope that others who read about it will come away realizing that it likely isn't worth buying the cheapest brake parts available.

I'd hardly call my original post a lecture, but certainly it did seem a bit obvious that you didn't know what you were looking at. Frankly, you haven't given me a reason to think otherwise as of yet. Lecture, lesson, post, whatever you want to call it, it was just a basic description of what was up with your rotors.

Sorry, I won't give out any prescriptions until you pay me the co-pays you owe me already .

..
But here's the important distinction: Who here has witnessed a 'rotor failure?' I haven't, and I've never met anyone who has. With undamaged parts installed competently, it just does not happen. A rotor cracking in half under braking would be an instant opportunity for a million dollar lawsuit.

Again, people. It's just a chunk of iron. If you want to say that some manufacturer adds in a fraction of a percentage point of nickel or chromium or something, and that that has any kind of real-world impact, you need to provide the proof. If there are no scientific studies on the subject, then quit spreading bullshit misinformation under the label of 'fact.'...

I have seen a rotor failure. Back in the late 1980's a customer came in complaining of a brake pull ever since a panic stop. IIRC, the car was a Buick Riviera and one of the front rotors had broken. The disc was still clamped in the caliper, while the hub was intact (IOW: the ring part of the rotor was just broken from the dish part of the rotor). We did a front brake job with new rotors and that was that.

I'm not going to make a statement of fact, backed up with a 18 page document and a dozen 8x10" glossy photos with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what it was. What I'll simply explain is that there is a more than one compound of cast iron. Also, there is more than one way to heat treat and harden iron. Just taking those two variables into consideration leaves you a nearly infinite amount of possibilities.

If you've ever owned a car for a long time, you sometimes notice how parts wear. I owned a MB 300TD. That car taught you a lesson about using quality parts. The original rotors lasted a long time. The surface of the replacement rotor where the pad touches wore so fast that the brake sensor came in contact with the 'lip' of the rotor while there was still almost 1/8" or so of pad left. It took a bunch of miles to manifest, but those rotors clearly were not of the same quality of the originals. I bought quality parts to replace those and the rotors wore fine for years to come. This experience was likely at least 15 years ago. I believe that it pre-dated the cheap Chinese brake rotor invasion by quite a few years.

 

[DaTT]

Is there a new troll in the garage? Just asking....

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Is there a new troll in the garage? Just asking....

I liken it to a 15 year old kid who does oil changes at jiffy lube walking into an independent parts store with 10 old retired euro mechanics sitting around, and the kid trying to explain to the old men how they're wrong and he's right.


Maybe it's troll, but he's (usually) entertaining nonetheless.

 

[wirednuts]

I liken it to a 15 year old kid who does oil changes at jiffy lube walking into an independent parts store with 10 old retired euro mechanics sitting around, and the kid trying to explain to the old men how they're wrong and he's right.


Maybe it's troll, but he's (usually) entertaining nonetheless.

or a 19 year old virgin who cant even masturbate because his mom will only let him online if shes watching him. he clearly has no idea what he is talking about, and feels me must remain right. in other words, sexual frustration

 

[wirednuts]

Since you are a reasonable person, and your post happens to bring up an important point...

Tires are slightly different to me, since there are vast differences among them. It's often not even that well-correlated with price- I've seen expensive tires that suck, and cheap tires that do rather well for your average econocar.

The thing is, though, I think your opinion on critical versus non-critical components is kind of backwards. Manufacturers are free to make shitty engine parts. If an OEM part fails, and you replace it with a cheap aftermarket part that also fails, are you going to be able to sue the aftermarket manufacturer? Highly unlikely. All they're going to do is point torwards the failure of the OEM part, if anything.

But here's the important distinction: Who here has witnessed a 'rotor failure?' I haven't, and I've never met anyone who has. With undamaged parts installed competently, it just does not happen. A rotor cracking in half under braking would be an instant opportunity for a million dollar lawsuit.

Again, people. It's just a chunk of iron. If you want to say that some manufacturer adds in a fraction of a percentage point of nickel or chromium or something, and that that has any kind of real-world impact, you need to provide the proof. If there are no scientific studies on the subject, then quit spreading bullshit misinformation under the label of 'fact.'

I know it's hard for some people to make small distinctions in the way things are stated (honestly not trying to be insulting there; we all have our strengths and being an analytical asshole fuck happens to be one of mine). But don't get on MY ass for putting forth speculation on a subject that, so far, has turned up no tangible proof one way or the other, and furthermore, don't present your own speculation as factual information. End PSA.

hahaha i didnt even see this. awesome. this guy needs to be hit in the head with both a cheap and good rotor. maybe then he can tell the difference

puchnech- every brake rotor fails. why else would you ever replace them? you dont even know what youre talking about. severe premature failure is what almost never happens. have i seen cracked rotors? of course. but only at the end of their service life. the technology they have today to test the alloys of the metal in rotors works well. they are all made to a certain spec, but by no means are they all the same.

oem parts are made on a balance of quality and cost decided by a team of engineers present and past. cheap aftermarket parts are built on a balance of cost and cost and almost all of the time will fail sooner then oem counterparts. the only real exceptions are when the oem parts are able to be made so cheap that aftermarket just makes the same exact thing but sells it for a lower profit. youll see that here and there on cars and electronics too.