Lets face it. US democracy is broken

[TruePaige]

THIS IS A GREAT THING!

I'm guessing you are a lot like myself and your political views range pretty widely from the far left to the far right and often somewhere in the middle.

This is going to make me sound like a Hannitized idiot but where I have a problem is when some dumb mother fucker from Chicago sells a bunch of lemmings some shit about "hope and change".

We don't need FUNDAMENTAL change. Sure things could always be tweaked but we are the wealthiest country in the world. While we aren't 100% free (which no one is by the way) we are far freer than most.

Our poor people own a car (often times 2), have air conditioning, eat well, and many even own homes.

The poor in other countries are starving to death, living on the streets, and truly have hellish lives.


I WANT GRIDLOCK. I don't want shit to get done. Why ruin a good thing?

I want everyone to get along long enough to:

1: abolish the IRS and move to a flat sales tax
2: legalize weed and tax it to fight the war on drugs
3: allow gay people to get married and serve


Beyond that I would be happy if they referred to each other as Hatfield and McCoy for life.

Well you are wrong on many things.

The only way this country will get better is with true liberals.

I mean a massive expansion of civil liberties that have been restricted over time (No war on drugs, no illegal wire tapping, no warrantless spying, no ridiculous gun laws)

All basic human provisions provided for (health care, internet access, transportation infrastructure that doesn't suck..)

But a fiscally sound and not nutjob basis.

What a true liberal knows we need. Freedom.

Liberal = Liberation.

 

[MotF Bane]

Well you are wrong on many things.

The only way this country will get better is with true liberals.

I mean a massive expansion of civil liberties that have been restricted over time (No war on drugs, no illegal wire tapping, no warrantless spying, no ridiculous gun laws)

All basic human provisions provided for (health care, internet access, transportation infrastructure that doesn't suck..)

But a fiscally sound and not nutjob basis.

What a true liberal knows we need. Freedom.

Liberal = Liberation.

Does not fit.

 

[Moonbeam]

I am an American and proud of it. Yes some of that pride comes from our fairly illustrious past. You basically called every American vain, corrupt, in denial and a few other implied insults. Sorry if I take a little offense.

The remark about the good 'ol days was to counter what I saw as an incoming argument of how great America used to be and how it's now gone to shit. An argument that's been heard since the dawn of time and has correspondingly gotten quite old. If you weren't going to make that argument then great. I was simply pointing out that the future now is no more dark than it was back during Vietnam. In fact it's a hell of a lot brighter IMO.

And no, I currently have no real political influence for the moment, but I don't see how that's relevant. I'm 22 and in college, with an engineering major no less. While I suppose anything's possible, my career isn't exactly heading towards politics. If a real hot button issue comes up that I feel I have an informed opinion about, I'll write my congressman like everyone else.

But see, the problem is not that you take offense, but that you were long ago mad to feel offended. I just told you a truth which, because of hidden feelings, sets you off. Conscious evolution begins when one feels offended and looks into the self to find the reason. The presence of insult in the world is basically an illusion. You can't be bothered by insults that do not trigger hidden self hate, and the insults you do usually get are from those who, out of their own self hate feel a need to try to hurt somebody.

Observe the world and watch how you react. Do not feed the reaction with the assumptions you normally have. Just observe how things trigger feelings. Allow yourself to feel without comment.

This is what the Buddha did under the Bo tree.

 

[chucky2]

Basically irishScott we just read the Moonie posts for comedic value. Ignore works too, but, they can in fact brighten ones day when you realize that, no matter how bad it's going for you, someone out there like Moonie has it infinitely worse...

Chuck

 

[nick1985]

Yeah, Moonbeam is completely batshit. I actually feel bad for the guy

 

[Deudalus]

Does not fit.

I think he was joking, I'm not sure though.

 

[Moonbeam]

I think if he were joking he wouldn't have told the truth. I think what Moft means by doesn't fit is the fiscal responsibility, which is incorrect. Fiscal responsibility is very progressive.

 

[elitejp]

Well you are wrong on many things.

The only way this country will get better is with true liberals.

I mean a massive expansion of civil liberties that have been restricted over time (No war on drugs, no illegal wire tapping, no warrantless spying, no ridiculous gun laws)

All basic human provisions provided for (health care, internet access, transportation infrastructure that doesn't suck..)

But a fiscally sound and not nutjob basis.

What a true liberal knows we need. Freedom.

Liberal = Liberation.

And how do you plan on this actually taking place in the real world. Your idea of civil liberties would only lead to chaos, and your second point allows for everyone to have the same benefits regardless of conduct. In a perfect society this could work but since people are people and they always will be, their will always be those to try to take advantage by doing the bare minimum while others will go above and beyond. However the lazy will be far more prevalant than the hardworkers.

 

[mjquilly]

The problem with democracy is that 51% of the population votes themselves the wealth of 49% of the population, until it all dries up and the whole system collapses.

The point of our constitutional republic was that the government wasn't supposed to be allowed to do that in the first place.

exactly. This isn't supposed to be a democracy.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Ben Franklin

 

[Tristicus]

What a true liberal knows we need. Freedom.

Liberal = Liberation.

:hmm:

Ah...no.

 

[Craig234]

exactly. This isn't supposed to be a democracy.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Ben Franklin

I'd like you to point me to one of your posts when Republicans had power against majority rule.

That quote is a defense of individual rights in the constitution, not Republican abuse of the filibuster.

 

[Linflas]

I'd like you to point me to one of your posts when Republicans had power against majority rule.

That quote is a defense of individual rights in the constitution, not Republican abuse of the filibuster.

Funny how what you call abuse was vociferously defended by the Democrats when they were the minority party.

 

[Craig234]

Funny how what you call abuse was vociferously defended by the Democrats when they were the minority party.

The Republicans have filibustered at rates unlike anything the Democrats have done.

 

[MotF Bane]

exactly. This isn't supposed to be a democracy.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Ben Franklin

:awe:

 

[Deudalus]

I think if he were joking he wouldn't have told the truth. I think what Moft means by doesn't fit is the fiscal responsibility, which is incorrect. Fiscal responsibility is very progressive.

Guys seriously stop it.

Its hard to tell through the PC if you really mean this stuff.

 

[Moonbeam]

Guys seriously stop it.

Its hard to tell through the PC if you really mean this stuff.

I mean what I mean but I may not mean what you think you are hearing. You may be full of associations and assumptions I don't have.

 

[cubby1223]

The Republicans have filibustered at rates unlike anything the Democrats have done.

Oh boo hoo, cry some more will ya

What we have in the federal government that is increasingly based on politics of hate. The "progressives" were put in power because of how much they hated President Bush. Senator Scott Brown was elected in part on how much they hate this health reform legislation. This November Republicans will gain seats in both houses of congress based largely on how much they hate President Obama.

For as long as we hate each other, it's a good thing the government is not doing much fundamental changing of our country.

But then again, you are someone who wishes this country were governed more like how Venezuela is governed...

 

[Craig234]

Oh boo hoo, cry some more will ya

What we have in the federal government that is increasingly based on politics of hate. The "progressives" were put in power because of how much they hated President Bush. Senator Scott Brown was elected in part on how much they hate this health reform legislation. This November Republicans will gain seats in both houses of congress based largely on how much they hate President Obama.

For as long as we hate each other, it's a good thing the government is not doing much fundamental changing of our country.

But then again, you are someone who wishes this country were governed more like how Venezuela is governed...

You're just babbling and parroting the 'don't pass anything' nonsense and finally conitnuing the 100% rate of my positions being misstated. Don't try to say what my position is, you do it badly.

 

[mjquilly]

I'd like you to point me to one of your posts when Republicans had power against majority rule.

That quote is a defense of individual rights in the constitution, not Republican abuse of the filibuster.

I am commenting on the OP's enlightenment to the fact that the Rs and Ds have "ruined" democracy

And, no, I did not mean for that quote to be taken in defense of filibuster, but as a reminder that democracy is not the treasured jewel that so many make it out to be.

I am disgusted equally by establishment Rs and establishment Ds

 

[EagleKeeper]

Funny how what you call abuse was vociferously defended by the Democrats when they were the minority party.

The Republicans have filibustered at rates unlike anything the Democrats have done.

The Dems also have stated that they were going to run roughshod over the Republicans and they could ram their agenda through Congress without any Republican input.

The Republican's have a limited type of weapons in their arsenal to slow down this train wreck. The fillibuster is one of them. It is allowing the Dems and public to see the serious flaws in some of the legeslation that is coming out of the Dem camp.

What the Repubs are doing is what the Dems also did previously. The big difference is that the Dems at the time had other options that this current Repub crop does not.

 

[BoberFett]

Well you are wrong on many things.

The only way this country will get better is with true liberals.

I mean a massive expansion of civil liberties that have been restricted over time (No war on drugs, no illegal wire tapping, no warrantless spying, no ridiculous gun laws)

All basic human provisions provided for (health care, internet access, transportation infrastructure that doesn't suck..)

But a fiscally sound and not nutjob basis.

What a true liberal knows we need. Freedom.

Liberal = Liberation.

The bolded has nothing to do with liberalism. In fact, quite the opposite. In order to provide those things to people who cannot or will not provide them for themselves, you have to force others to work to provide those things for them. That is the antithesis of liberty.

Edit: For the record, I agree completely with the prior statement regarding civil liberties. Those need to be greatly expanded. I just don't believe in the idea of positive rights. A negative right is freedom for you while a positive right is slavery for others. And any right which enslaves others is not a right, but an abuse. As I said, the antithesis of freedom.

 

[Craig234]

The Dems also have stated that they were going to run roughshod over the Republicans and they could ram their agenda through Congress without any Republican input.

That's false. Now, the Republicans did that - the Democrats have not done it nor said they would.

Links to quotes? I'mnot sure you can even find any obscure ones.

Saying they'll use reconciliation to pass a bill already heavily changed to include Republican input (I have a quote this week of Pelosi saying that) to get around political filibustering isn't that.

The Republican's have a limited type of weapons in their arsenal to slow down this train wreck. The fillibuster is one of them. It is allowing the Dems and public to see the serious flaws in some of the legeslation that is coming out of the Dem camp.

They should have limits. They're 41 of 100, and don't deserve what they've been doing, to get a total veto over almost all major legislation unlike any other minority in Congressional history.

They're not doing what you said - they are abusing the filibuster for a veto for political gain by obstructing.

What the Repubs are doing is what the Dems also did previously. The big difference is that the Dems at the time had other options that this current Repub crop does not.

False, as I said. The Democrats never filibustered at a rate anywhere near the Republicans.

What 'other options'? THe other options werre the REPUBLICANS' other options to get AROUND the filibuster, threatening to destroy it to get their way and 'run roughshod' over a tiny number of filibusters.

 

[Craig234]

I am commenting on the OP's enlightenment to the fact that the Rs and Ds have "ruined" democracy

And, no, I did not mean for that quote to be taken in defense of filibuster, but as a reminder that democracy is not the treasured jewel that so many make it out to be.

I am disgusted equally by establishment Rs and establishment Ds

Neither are flawless, but the Republicans have behaved much worse. I could repeat a lotof history with details I've posted repeatedly, but ut's the case.

 

[Craig234]

Well you are wrong on many things.

The only way this country will get better is with true liberals.

I mean a massive expansion of civil liberties that have been restricted over time (No war on drugs, no illegal wire tapping, no warrantless spying, no ridiculous gun laws)

All basic human provisions provided for (health care, internet access, transportation infrastructure that doesn't suck..)

But a fiscally sound and not nutjob basis.

What a true liberal knows we need. Freedom.

Liberal = Liberation.

Well said.

 

[werepossum]

The bolded has nothing to do with liberalism. In fact, quite the opposite. In order to provide those things to people who cannot or will not provide them for themselves, you have to force others to work to provide those things for them. That is the antithesis of liberty.

This. This in spades. How in the name of all that is good and holy did Internet access get to be a basic human need?

Government powerful enough to give you everything you need is powerful enough to take away everything you have, and will if it decides that it is bad for you or even if it just cannot provide the same thing for the masses. Wouldn't be fair for you to have broadband if others don't. Freedom is the ability to do for yourself, with all the rights, opportunities, and terrors of any free creature. Having all one's needs provided for is not freedom; it is the state of a valued pet at best and chattel at worst.