lets nationalize a few refineries

[DCal430]

Gas and Oil are basically a necessity for most people. Necessities should not be in the hands of private companies. All oil companies should be nationalized.

 

[CycloWizard]

Gas and Oil are basically a necessity for most people. Necessities should not be in the hands of private companies. All oil companies should be nationalized.

Feeling entitled to a constant, cheap supply of something does not make it a necessity. Government-run farms, water systems, housing projects, and brothels would all have to come first in satisfying human needs before oil would even be on the radar.

 

[CycloWizard]

Grinding halt comes to mind.

I think there are at least a few people here who would try to pump crude directly into their vehicles.

 

[DCal430]

Feeling entitled to a constant, cheap supply of something does not make it a necessity. Government-run farms, water systems, housing projects, and brothels would all have to come first in satisfying human needs before oil would even be on the radar.

The bolded items here should also be government run only.

 

[Pulsar]

Good, hope all the new tax vehicles nail your ass hard :thumbsup:

And why exactly would you hope that? Do you know me? Or my financial situation? My social situation perhaps?

I'm curious what, exactly, makes you hate so much that you'd wish hardship or difficulties on others, or even wish to take additional money from them without knowing anything about them.

Don't look now, but your irrationality is showing.

 

[Pulsar]

The bolded items here should also be government run only.

Really? Farms should be government run only? Housing?

It's a pretty small step to say that transportation is necessity. Communications. Fuel delivery. Clothing.

Sorry. Your way leads in a direction that's been proven over and over to be a total abject failure. Centralized governments that control everything are corrupted absolute. Every. Single. Time. That's where you evidently are headed, and no rational intelligent thinking person wants to go there.

 

[xj0hnx]

And why exactly would you hope that? Do you know me? Or my financial situation? My social situation perhaps?

I'm curious what, exactly, makes you hate so much that you'd wish hardship or difficulties on others, or even wish to take additional money from them without knowing anything about them.

Don't look now, but your irrationality is showing.

As Loony Mooney would say, it's his intense self-hatred. He hates himself so much that it destroys his very core to see anyone that doesn't agree with him succeed.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally Posted by dmcowen674
Good, hope all the new tax vehicles nail your ass hard :thumbsup:

And why exactly would you hope that? Do you know me? Or my financial situation? My social situation perhaps?

I'm curious what, exactly, makes you hate so much that you'd wish hardship or difficulties on others, or even wish to take additional money from them without knowing anything about them.

Don't look now, but your irrationality is showing.

Your post showed you clearly as a Texan braggart.

If the shoe fits, just saying...

 

[CycloWizard]

The bolded items here should also be government run only.

Why not brothels? I'm no psychologist, but I'm fairly certain sex is a more fundamental human need than gasoline.

 

[Pulsar]

Originally Posted by dmcowen674
Good, hope all the new tax vehicles nail your ass hard :thumbsup:
Your post showed you clearly as a Texan braggart.

If the shoe fits, just saying...

You couldn't be more wrong.

You've peaked my interest though. Care to show me where I bragged, or where I suggested I might be from Texas?

Anyway, returning to the thread at hand and stepping away from that silliness, I still haven't seen a single supportive reason as to how nationalizing any company or industry is a good idea. The dozens of failures we have as examples are pretty strong evidence that it doesn't work, and so far there hasn't been any evidence that it does.

 

[p0nd]

Anyway, returning to the thread at hand and stepping away from that silliness, I still haven't seen a single supportive reason as to how nationalizing any company or industry is a good idea. The dozens of failures we have as examples are pretty strong evidence that it doesn't work, and so far there hasn't been any evidence that it does.

Which failures are you referring to?

The goal of any corporation is to maximize profits. When you are dealing with absolute necessity goods, demand has a very low price elasticity - people will pay almost any amount (It's why people go bankrupt over healthcare in the U.S). If you want to maximize profit on a necessity good, what can you do? Price fix. Lobby to prevent decentralized, individual collection of the good so that only your source is accessible. Lobby to lower and remove regulations, in turn decreasing your cost of production. These things are generally accepted as to be bad for consumers.

Look up Bechtel as an example of water privatization.

The other issue is that the infrastructure of many necessity goods, such as water, food, electricity or energy, does not readily allow for competition when the infrastructure is privately owned (barring government intervention). Telecom A doesn't want Telecom B using the wires it set up, meaning the barrier to entry, which is designing and building a new infrastructure, is impractical and cost prohibitive. I believe this situation is present in much of Canada, though I can't remember the name of the company.

Of course there is a happy middle somewhere in there, where certain goods can be privately owned but publicly regulated. The danger in this option can be seen in a situation like Deepwater Horizon, where BP lobbied for lower safety regs, combined with negligence and we know what happened from there. Public risk at a private profit. The balance here has to be struck on the ability of corporations to influence the accountability of a politician.

Anyway those are the reasons that I think privatizing life necessities can be very dangerous.

 

[werepossum]

The bolded items here should also be government run only.

Then we too can enjoy the same standard of living as North Korea, or 70s-era Cambodia, or Cuba, or the Soviet Union. Think how much closer we'll all be after bonding for hours each day in the lines to get food, soap, gasoline . . .

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Originally Posted by dmcowen674
Good, hope all the new tax vehicles nail your ass hard :thumbsup:



Your post showed you clearly as a Texan braggart.

If the shoe fits, just saying...

How many times did you get dropped on your head as a baby?

 

[piasabird]

I dont see why we have to sell oil/gas at some world market price. In Iran they dont make Iranians pay the the market price for gasoline??? US Gas should be cheaper, because we are not shipping it in a giant tanker. It does cost a little more to get it out of the ground in the USA, but the higher prices we see today probably more than cover that.

One thing that does probably happen is under-production so the prices stay higher. Another thing that happens is the stupid EPA has a local blend and uses additives that actually do more harm than good. This causes the creation of many micro-markets and even more of a chance of shortages of every particular blend of Gasoline. This is how the government is helping you out! So you want to cause more of this by having the government take over Fuel production?

Just imagine the government union oil workers making $500,000 a year, and a nice cushey Retirement. Dont you complain now about teahers being overpaid???

Maybe we should just get rid of the EPA trying to micro manage gasoline. They are causing more harm than good.

 

[artikk]

I dont see why we have to sell oil/gas at some world market price. In Iran they dont make Iranians pay the the market price for gasoline??? US Gas should be cheaper, because we are not shipping it in a giant tanker. It does cost a little more to get it out of the ground in the USA, but the higher prices we see today probably more than cover that.

One thing that does probably happen is under-production so the prices stay higher. Another thing that happens is the stupid EPA has a local blend and uses additives that actually do more harm than good. This causes the creation of many micro-markets and even more of a chance of shortages of every particular blend of Gasoline. This is how the government is helping you out! So you want to cause more of this by having the government take over Fuel production?

Just imagine the government union oil workers making $500,000 a year, and a nice cushey Retirement. Dont you complain now about teahers being overpaid???

Maybe we should just get rid of the EPA trying to micro manage gasoline. They are causing more harm than good.

So you're proposing oil subsidies like in Iran?

 

[CycloWizard]

Another key point that I've failed to make thus far is that oil companies know full well they will start to lose business if gas prices get too high. This is a strong incentive for them to keep prices as low as they can, subject to the costs of getting the oil from the ground to your gas tank. Non-oil-based energy sources become viable as oil prices continue to climb. Once they enter the market, oil will have a very hard time reclaiming that ground as the other technologies have large startup costs. If you want oil companies to go out of business, root for their prices to go up precipitously and you'll quickly see a decline in demand and their profits, accompanied by an increase in urban real estate values as people move back into cities.

 

[sao123]

It shows that you don't know how the system works. The oil companies are making record profit because Oil is a commodity that is traded on the open marker for anyone to purchase and resell.
The oil companies spends lots and lots of money to get the oil out of the ground and ship it. It is sold to refineries based on the commidty price, which is set by traders. Those of you that bitch and complain about the costs of oil better not have any retirement plans, pension plans, 401K plans or such because they probably include oil in one way or another.


The government running a refinery isn't going to help, since it is the government and people like dmcowen that won't approve new refineries to be opened so they can make more gas. If they can make more gas, the cost of gas will go down because they work of of volume sales.

And don't forget, oil refineries don't just make gas. All that wonderful plastic is made from oil. Propane is a byproduct and used to be burned off when refining oil, now it is caputured and resold so you can grill out on your patio.

If you want cheaper gas, don't take over industries, let industries work. Stop throwing road blocks in the way and causing the companies to spend a lot more money to get oil. If the environmental whackos would let the oil companies drill on land, they wouldn't have to drill in 3 miles of water and risk leaks that destroy large swaths of the ocean.

so the solution is abundantly clear... remove all petrolium products from the investment markets. if you buy it, you must take delivery before you can resell.

 

[JockoJohnson]

so the solution is abundantly clear... remove all petrolium products from the investment markets. if you buy it, you must take delivery before you can resell.

Sounds good to me. Great idea. I guess this means that we were lied to a few years ago when gas prices rose up. People were saying that there are no speculators. They aren't allowed to play the oil market. Stupid Hannity(sp?) listeners and other talking heads. It was obvious then and it is obvious now that speculators are playing a role in the price of oil.

 

[JS80]

so the solution is abundantly clear... remove all petrolium products from the investment markets. if you buy it, you must take delivery before you can resell.

This will have negative effects on the consumer, prices will go up due to illiquidity premium.

Look at the oil action last few days. Oil went UP after the exchange increased margin requirements.

 

[cirrrocco]

The majority of a cost of gasoline is in the cost of crude oil. How would a govt run refinery take 25-50% off a gasoline without subsidizing it? And in the process destroying market mechanics? Subsidizing means we pay for it on the back end while fucking up the demand curve, making the problem worse.

Crude cost in 2008 was 160 something - Avg Price of gas $4.00
Crust Cost in 2011 is 100 something - Avg Price of gas $4.00

does not compute at all.

 

[JTsyo]

I'm no business major but I would guess because they are a safe bet. The global market for refined petroleum shows no signs of going away anytime soon.

Not to mention profit on volume. When you're going through millions of gallons, the profits adds up even at 2%. If everyone only invested in the most profitable business, it wouldn't be as successful.

 

[WHAMPOM]

*gets into devils advocate character*

What if the u.s. purhased and ran a few off line refineries for gasoline? We could call its products "U.S. Gas"

The crude purchased for refinement could be bought off the market at price or brought in from surpluss reserves, and then refined and sold to dealers at a set price with set profit margins ensuring operating costs are covered and minimal profit which could be spent however, maybe R&D or new infrastrucure for alternatives.

Also, only a few stations selling only u.s. gas could be open in each city, keeping local price competition in check but not over run with government business. Especially because supplies have to be limited due to the small amount of refinement capacity.

This would #1 increase competition, #2 help stimulate the economy since no new infrastructre is really necessary other then buying old stations and renovating them, #3 is minimally intrusive to the private sector....so long as the gas sold does not cease to be profitable. #4 how about paying off that big debt in the meantime.....

I dont see how opec or other producing nations would be too opposed because oil is sti bought at market price. And also it would be a good gauge for regular americans what the real cost at the pump should be.

Moat industries are already so comptetitive that the us couldnt possibly get anywhere competiting, but it seems so silly easy to make a quick buck in oil refinement for gas and it makes sense for ciizens.


This of course is assuming oil refining is where we are making very good profit margins in the grand scheme of things

Let's nationalize the wells on public land, a much better idea to use the oil pumped out at a cost of $5.00 a barrel. Don't believe the $5.00? That is the Oil Co's own cost estimate on Alaska pipeline oil delivered to port for shipment to Asia.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Crude cost in 2008 was 160 something - Avg Price of gas $4.00
Crust Cost in 2011 is 100 something - Avg Price of gas $4.00

does not compute at all.

SSSSHHHHHHHH! Do not bring up the $Billions in quarterly profits BP makes. Lawyers cost money to scrreww Gulf fishermen out of their compensation.

 

[piasabird]

One thing I would say is that there is no requirement to pay the World Oil Market price for government procured oil. As a country with Oil Reserves, there is no reason we could not set our own oil price lower.

Just keep the unions out of the government. It is the Unions getting out of hand that ruined the automobile industry.

 

[cirrrocco]

When I used to work at Shell and Exxon, the operations manager used to tell me that cost to drill a barrel of oil was about 16 bucks in the US. This was in 2005. They used to sell it back to the parent company [ Shell or Exxon in this case ] for 60 bucks. The market price at that time was about 85 bucks.

so these oil companies open subsidiary companies, and have massive margins when they sell oil to themselves. Then they go back and say that cost to refine that barrel of oil is miniscule and then get subsidies and they don't make any profits on refining. In the meantime they have already made massive profits by drilling and selling the oil to themselves.

crazy I tell ya