Liberal vs Conservative -- semantic and historical approach

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agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
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So you're saying being a hypocrite is something positive now? These mental gymnastics are just incredible. You can believe in whatever you want, just don't be proud of your hipocrisy like you appear to be.

Like I said, there's still hope for you yet since you can recognize your own hipocrisy.

Funny when the nazi/klan defense force accuse anyone else of mental gymnastics.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
So you're saying being a hypocrite is something positive now? These mental gymnastics are just incredible. You can believe in whatever you want, just don't be proud of your hipocrisy like you appear to be.

That is the second time you have misread what I wrote. I don't know if the communication problem is my writing or your reading but there is certainly a problem there.

I was making a tangent observation about human behavior in general that was completely stripped from ideology and value judgement. I have no idea how you interpreted that into what you posted above.

That post was kind of mistake, I was really trying to reply to PMV whose post I found quite compelling. I apologize for erroneously linking you in.
 

FFFF

Member
Dec 20, 2015
199
18
36
That is the second time you have misread what I wrote. I don't know if the communication problem is my writing or your reading but there is certainly a problem there.

I was making a tangent observation about human behavior in general that was completely stripped from ideology and value judgement. I have no idea how you interpreted that into what you posted above.

That post was kind of mistake, I was really trying to reply to PMV whose post I found quite compelling. I apologize for erroneously linking you in.

Ok, I'm sorry for misunderstanding your previous comment. You should really work on your communication skills on the Internet, no offense.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,722
6,201
126
It has the ring of truthiness, no doubt.
It's all true but not of the authoritarian left, not the progressive left. I am a liberal and I reject those behaviors as mirror images of a he authoritarian right. Not all conservatives are authoritarian either.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
It's all true but not of the authoritarian left, not the progressive left. I am a liberal and I reject those behaviors as mirror images of a he authoritarian right. Not all conservatives are authoritarian either.

No, you're smart enough to figure that liberal thinkers are correct, but also smart enough to know that being correct isn't necessarily in your personal self-interest.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
It's all true but not of the authoritarian left, not the progressive left. I am a liberal and I reject those behaviors as mirror images of a he authoritarian right. Not all conservatives are authoritarian either.

Yeh, it's amusing how conservatives get all touchy-feely over free speech when it's Nazis & white supremacists marching in the streets to defend the monuments of Jim Crow. You know, people who'd end free speech given the chance, whose ideological fore-bearers gassed millions or brutally repressed black Americans with segregation & lynchings, not to mention slavery prior to that.

Oh yeh- it's also the people who march against them who are the real fascists even though their ideology doesn't reflect that at all. They're highly anti-authoritarian.

Meanwhile, the Hair Furor pardons an actual fascist, Joe Arpaio, and they all murmur in agreement.

These folks don't think straight. Don't let them even entertain the notion that they might be.

While you're at it, study up on Right Wing Authoritarianism-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_authoritarianism#Attitudes
 

J.Wilkins

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
2,681
640
91
The question makes no sense, the opposite of liberalism is fascism and the opposite of conservatism is progressivism.

You are trying to argue north vs east without realizing that north east is a valid direction.

I'm progressive on some things (almost everything, actually) but conservative on others, I'm 100% liberal on all things.

Universally hated by the far left and the far right fascists though.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,722
6,201
126
It's all true but not of the authoritarian left, not the progressive left. I am a liberal and I reject those behaviors as mirror images of a he authoritarian right. Not all conservatives are authoritarian either.
It's all true but of the authoritarian left. I got a not true in there somehow by mistake.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,722
6,201
126
Yeh, it's amusing how conservatives get all touchy-feely over free speech when it's Nazis & white supremacists marching in the streets to defend the monuments of Jim Crow. You know, people who'd end free speech given the chance, whose ideological fore-bearers gassed millions or brutally repressed black Americans with segregation & lynchings, not to mention slavery prior to that.

Oh yeh- it's also the people who march against them who are the real fascists even though their ideology doesn't reflect that at all. They're highly anti-authoritarian.

Meanwhile, the Hair Furor pardons an actual fascist, Joe Arpaio, and they all murmur in agreement.

These folks don't think straight. Don't let them even entertain the notion that they might be.

While you're at it, study up on Right Wing Authoritarianism-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_authoritarianism#Attitudes
I think we are on the same page. Wilkins #107 makes sense to me.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,722
6,201
126
No, you're smart enough to figure that liberal thinkers are correct, but also smart enough to know that being correct isn't necessarily in your personal self-interest.
What personal interests? My interest is in the fact you are a leftist authoritarian or an agent provocateur of some foreign entity that seeks to destroy American liberalism by dividing liberals and creating fanatics on the left that create havoc for real progressives? My interest in the welfare of my country? I see that as being duty, not personal interest. You promote what is evil. As long as you are here spewing garbage I will be here kicking your ass.
 
Reactions: J.Wilkins

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
What personal interests? My interest is in the fact you are a leftist authoritarian or an agent provocateur of some foreign entity that seeks to destroy American liberalism by dividing liberals and creating fanatics on the left that create havoc for real progressives? My interest in the welfare of my country? I see that as being duty, not personal interest. You promote what is evil. As long as you are here spewing garbage I will be here kicking your ass.

If he were any kind of leftist his views on economics would be entirely different. Whatever his motivations might be, he's just here to spread the FUD.
 

J.Wilkins

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
2,681
640
91
If he were any kind of leftist his views on economics would be entirely different. Whatever his motivations might be, he's just here to spread the FUD.

He's the far left and you don't get that because you don't want to. His views on economics are very far to the left, he's arguing anarcho-communism, like your friends in antifa.

I've told you before, the antifa and their likes on the far left don't like you any better than they like the Nazis. Liberals are their enemies as much as the Nazis and yet you somehow manage to ignore reality and think that by doing so they'll turn out to be liberal as you want them to be.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,298
8,212
136
He's the far left and you don't get that because you don't want to. His views on economics are very far to the left, he's arguing anarcho-communism, like your friends in antifa.

Actually I've yet to work out what his views on economics are. In fact I have yet to grasp what his politics are in general, though he has the _style_ of a sectarian leftist, I'm not sure that he has the content

I mean, he seems to be pro-Hillary, so surely he's not politically very far from you, given that Hillary is kind of the US version of Blair or Clegg?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,722
6,201
126
Actually I've yet to work out what his views on economics are. In fact I have yet to grasp what his politics are in general, though he has the _style_ of a sectarian leftist, I'm not sure that he has the content

I mean, he seems to be pro-Hillary, so surely he's not politically very far from you, given that Hillary is kind of the US version of Blair or Clegg?
His biggest problem is that he has little self understanding. He fails to understand motivations. He thinks that conservatives are fully aware of their selfish natures and should be shamed for that, rather then that conservatives behave as they do because they are full of repressed shame their altered realities are there to protect themselves from. He can't see the failings of his own mentality or feel the Shane of blaming others for faults thei neither know they have or are willing to face. He is just like them. He does not see the paradox of duality and can't grasp its resolution at a higher level of awareness? He can't forgive, himself especially.
 

J.Wilkins

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
2,681
640
91
Actually I've yet to work out what his views on economics are. In fact I have yet to grasp what his politics are in general, though he has the _style_ of a sectarian leftist, I'm not sure that he has the content

I mean, he seems to be pro-Hillary, so surely he's not politically very far from you, given that Hillary is kind of the US version of Blair or Clegg?

Yeah, I don't think you got one right here. He's a Sanders guy who supported Hillary out of sheer necessity since she was the most left, if Stalin had run he'd vote for him over either.

The UK version of this doesn't exist, the closest would be Hitler or Stalin and from where we are going that does seem to be the actual choice, far right or far left and people like you will call me ignorant or fascist for not supporting Stalin while Hitler supports will call me communist.

The middle ground was wiped out, in the US by Sanders and Trump, in the UK by May and Corbyn, all wortless pieces of filth with retarded ideas that cannot and never have worked in reality.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Yeah, I don't think you got one right here. He's a Sanders guy who supported Hillary out of sheer necessity since she was the most left, if Stalin had run he'd vote for him over either.

The UK version of this doesn't exist, the closest would be Hitler or Stalin and from where we are going that does seem to be the actual choice, far right or far left and people like you will call me ignorant or fascist for not supporting Stalin while Hitler supports will call me communist.

The middle ground was wiped out, in the US by Sanders and Trump, in the UK by May and Corbyn, all wortless pieces of filth with retarded ideas that cannot and never have worked in reality.

Left vs Right is traditionally defined in terms of economics. Agent has not, to my knowledge, ever agreed with left economics but prefers to go on about racist degens. He's never called out the greed of the lootocracy but has repeatedly denied that economics are part of the struggle.
 

FFFF

Member
Dec 20, 2015
199
18
36
It's all true but not of the authoritarian left, not the progressive left. I am a liberal and I reject those behaviors as mirror images of a he authoritarian right. Not all conservatives are authoritarian either.

Oh, it's definitely the left that perpetrates that. I don't know if you're playing dumb or just incredibly blinded by your liberal allegiances, but just because a term had a certain meaning and set of values hundreds of years ago, doesn't mean it's reflected in the reality of today. Just like how feminism once truly stood for equality of chances and now has degenerated into one-upping the men.

I'm really sorry, but sticking stubbornly to the dictionary definition just doesn't help things when so many who call themselves progressive liberals stand for hipocrisy and censorship while pretending to have the moral high ground.

The middle ground was wiped out, in the US by Sanders and Trump, in the UK by May and Corbyn, all wortless pieces of filth with retarded ideas that cannot and never have worked in reality.

Centrism hasn't been wiped out, it's just disorganized and with very little chance of ever becoming mainstream.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,298
8,212
136
Yeah, I don't think you got one right here. He's a Sanders guy who supported Hillary out of sheer necessity since she was the most left, if Stalin had run he'd vote for him over either.

The UK version of this doesn't exist, the closest would be Hitler or Stalin and from where we are going that does seem to be the actual choice, far right or far left and people like you will call me ignorant or fascist for not supporting Stalin while Hitler supports will call me communist.

The middle ground was wiped out, in the US by Sanders and Trump, in the UK by May and Corbyn, all wortless pieces of filth with retarded ideas that cannot and never have worked in reality.

And you're the moderate centrist, right?

Incidentally, Sanders is in no possible sense 'far left'. He's a social democrat type. Centre-left, I'd say.

Also, do you really think Corbyn is capable of 'wiping out' anyone?

The actual hard left (which Corbyn isn't, though I accept he isn't many degrees of separation from it) spent a long time trying to take over Labour by conspiratorial means and failed dismally. There's a reason the left found themselves in the driving seat for once, and it's not really down to their own awesome ability at wiping people out.

What you call the 'middle ground' in the UK wiped itself out, first in the form of the Blairites and then (to a still greater degree) the wretched Lib Dems.

We ended up here because that 'middle ground' performed so dismally and turned out to have nothing to say about the world as it is, other than to stand around wondering where all those lucrative ministerial expense accounts went.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,298
8,212
136
Isn't it funny how we all want others to believe as we do? That we all think less of those that don't?


Nah I don't hate religion, I just like getting vitriolic. I see all religion as a reflection of the human condition and our evolutionary past. I suspect that the magical thinking, scape goating, fear and tribalism that is part and parcel of religion is what will cause the extinction of humanity. It seems inevitable.

Look at the atheist movement, it has broken into bitter factions exactly as religion has. Look on this board, the absolute and bitter hatred the various factions have for each other is off the scales. Many people on here would have no problem if people with a different ideology from them were wiped from the earth, not the ideology per se but the actual people.. How big a step is it to go from wishing for certain segments of society to just go away to allowing it to happen? On a global scale with nuclear weapons, this is suicide.

The funny part of this is, I know how broken my own thinking is and all of this rant could be just my own raving paranoia.

Fair enough. I don't follow the 'atheist movement' but I can't say I'm remotely surprised if its split into mutually-hostile factions. Be a very unusual movement if it didn't, to be honest. Wish I didn't share your pessimism, but I kind of do.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,722
6,201
126
FFFF: Oh, it's definitely the left that perpetrates that.

M: The authoritarian left, the portion of the left that in the face of stress produced by the authoritarian right, can't hold their liberal beliefs together and succumb to the same paranoia and fear that produces the authoritarian right in all its madness.

F: I don't know if you're playing dumb or just incredibly blinded by your liberal allegiances, but just because a term had a certain meaning and set of values hundreds of years ago, doesn't mean it's reflected in the reality of today.

M: I based my belief that it is reflected today not on any ancient definition but because it is true of me and I see others who feel the same way. I stand for progressive ideas as I see them and define progressivism accordingly. I deny you or the authoritarian left the option to define me. I define progressive as I see it.

F: Just like how feminism once truly stood for equality of chances and now has degenerated into one-upping the men.

M: Jesus, why not just announce how intimidated you are and how worthless you feel having been knocked off your high perch. A threat to your glorious domination by women and all feminists suddenly become bitches. You little prick. Women have suffered and still suffer all over the world from the abuses of a patriarchal system and have for thousands of years, and at the first signs of the rage produced by such repression you collapse in the corner stroking your poor homeless dick. Man up dude.

F: I'm really sorry, but sticking stubbornly to the dictionary definition just doesn't help things when so many who call themselves progressive liberals stand for hipocrisy and censorship while pretending to have the moral high ground.

M: Probably you are unaware that it has been scientifically proven that those who self identify as conservatives are more prone to deny reality when it impacts negatively on one or more of their cherished beliefs, that conservatives are in fact bigger hypocrites and liars than liberals. Conservatives are more paranoid and more triggered by fear. They have larger right amygdalae and smaller cingulates than liberals, all indicative of an increased reactivity to fear and a lessened capacity to suppress fear as regards critical thinking. It sounds to me very much that you have such a brain.

My personal belief is that it isn't genetic but caused by being controlled as a child by fear you will not be loved if you do not toe the line.
 

FFFF

Member
Dec 20, 2015
199
18
36
F: Just like how feminism once truly stood for equality of chances and now has degenerated into one-upping the men.

M: Jesus, why not just announce how intimidated you are and how worthless you feel having been knocked off your high perch. A threat to your glorious domination by women and all feminists suddenly become bitches. You little prick. Women have suffered and still suffer all over the world from the abuses of a patriarchal system and have for thousands of years, and at the first signs of the rage produced by such repression you collapse in the corner stroking your poor homeless dick. Man up dude.

Quite ironic calling others triggered when you angrily resort to petty insults and ad-hominens like the ones emphasized above. Heh, at least now you've shown the real "liberal" in you.

M: Probably you are unaware that it has been scientifically proven that those who self identify as conservatives are more prone to deny reality when it impacts negatively on one or more of their cherished beliefs, that conservatives are in fact bigger hypocrites and liars than liberals. Conservatives are more paranoid and more triggered by fear. They have larger right amygdalae and smaller cingulates than liberals, all indicative of an increased reactivity to fear and a lessened capacity to suppress fear as regards critical thinking. It sounds to me very much that you have such a brain.

Also I'm neither a conservative or a liberal, I know hard to believe there could be something beyond those two sides, right?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Also I'm neither a conservative or a liberal, I know hard to believe there could be something beyond those two sides, right?

Yeh, the way you go on about the evils of your nebulous "PC Culture" is def Alt-right.
 

FFFF

Member
Dec 20, 2015
199
18
36
Yeh, the way you go on about the evils of your nebulous "PC Culture" is def Alt-right.

No, I'm a centrist with some libertarian tendencies. Just because I like to call out the hipocrisy found in political corectness doesn't mean I'm alt-right.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,722
6,201
126
Quite ironic calling others triggered when you angrily resort to petty insults and ad-hominens like the ones emphasized above. Heh, at least now you've shown the real "liberal" in you.



Also I'm neither a conservative or a liberal, I know hard to believe there could be something beyond those two sides, right?
M: And here I thought I was demonstrating the descriptive power of language. I thought my words apt at describing somebody who lumps all liberals in the authoritarian fanatic box and sees the women's movement only in terms of your dick. Why would I be angry at the kind of monstrous thinking that has ruined the lives of millions for thousands of years. Let me be more succinct. The only thing I showed was what you are. I think the anger you see in me is all yours. Learn to think. What blame can accrue to a person who was tortured as a child. Your claims not to be liberal or conservative are belied by your words. Watch our for those mad feminist liberal women. They can crawl our from under your bed in the late hours of the night take you away and probe you in their flying saucer.
 

FFFF

Member
Dec 20, 2015
199
18
36
M: And here I thought I was demonstrating the descriptive power of language. I thought my words apt at describing somebody who lumps all liberals in the authoritarian fanatic box and sees the women's movement only in terms of your dick. Why would I be angry at the kind of monstrous thinking that has ruined the lives of millions for thousands of years. Let me be more succinct. The only thing I showed was what you are. I think the anger you see in me is all yours. Learn to think. What blame can accrue to a person who was tortured as a child. Your claims not to be liberal or conservative are belied by your words. Watch our for those mad feminist liberal women. They can crawl our from under your bed in the late hours of the night take you away and probe you in their flying saucer.

Uh-huh, who's the one who resorted to personal attacks, again? Sorry buddy, you can't fool anyone with that do-gooder facade of yours.
 
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