Liberal vs Conservative -- semantic and historical approach

[Muse]

OK, I'm not trying to start any fights, face off one faction against another, no confrontation wanted here.

I'm talking about the words L vs C. OK?

I grew up in the 50's and 60's in CA. Mostly in L.A., some in Berkeley, a haven of liberals if not radicals, and that's where I live now. "Conservative" meant you were constipated if not arthritic. "Don't trust anyone over 30" was a catch phrase of "the revolution".

So, I continue to wonder how they ever in any way anywhere gave liberal a bad connotation and how they gave conservative anything other than a bad connotation. And yes, I think a reasoned treatment of this has to have a semantic component. At the same time my mind is boggled by how they made "politically correct" something to disparage. What in God's name is wrong with "correct"? Is that not in the same camp as the oxymorons in George Orwell's 1984? War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, etc.? Please discuss these things without resorting to personal attacks.

Moved to P&N.
admin allisolm

 

[Drako]

P&N this is not.

We've got leakage over here.

 

[NoTine42]

A truely open minded person would see merits of both sides

 

[LevelSea]

If you liberals are so smart, you'd be able to post in the correct forum.

 

[JM Aggie08]

Wrong forum, you stupid @#$%.

 

[Moonbeam]

OK, I'm not trying to start any fights, face off one faction against another, no confrontation wanted here.

I'm talking about the words L vs C. OK?

I grew up in the 50's and 60's in CA. Mostly in L.A., some in Berkeley, a haven of liberals if not radicals, and that's where I live now. "Conservative" meant you were constipated if not arthritic. "Don't trust anyone over 30" was a catch phrase of "the revolution".

So, I continue to wonder how they ever in any way anywhere gave liberal a bad connotation and how they gave conservative anything other than a bad connotation. And yes, I think a reasoned treatment of this has to have a semantic component. At the same time my mind is boggled by how they made "politically correct" something to disparage. What in God's name is wrong with "correct"? Is that not in the same camp as the oxymorons in George Orwell's 1984? War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, etc.? Please discuss these things without resorting to personal attacks.

Moved to P&N.
admin allisolm

Apparently even bringing the subject up in the wrong forum causes instant condemnation despite asking for rational reactions. My guess is that there is a retain sense of entitlement that eliminates any sense of shame in expressing opinions.. who needs linguistic precision if your need to express yourself outweighs a sense of personal pride

 

[Craig234]

A truely open minded person would see merits of both sides

This is very incorrect. That's not what open minded means. But you should understand both sides right or wrong.

In fact, the tendency of people to say this is taken advantage of and they are manipulated.

One technique for doing so is called 'moving the goalposts'. What that means is, if people think one thing is 'in the middle' between two sides, they move the goalpost further so the new 'middle' is where the goalpost used to be. Repeat and what was radical is now the center.

Another is the 'big lie'. It was Hitler who noted, people easily catch small lies - but they fall for really big ones.

You might be reluctant to look at 'one of the two parties' and say they're hugely, massively wrong. They're counting on that.

But if they are - they are.

Getting more educated about this helps you not make the mistake of thinking both sides need to have some merit. Not always.

Let me give you a thought experiment.

The topic: What is 2+2?

Now, if one side says "2" and the other side says "6", your thinking both sides have merit - the answer is in the middle.

But what if one side says "2" and the other says "8000"? Your centrism says, 'well it should be around 4000 - no way it can be close to 2'.

Another part of 'the big lie' - the key part - is repetition. That's HOW the big lie gets accepted. The way the brain works, if it hers the big lie over and over and over, it tends to eventually accept it - and literally 'turns off' the part of the brain that would challenge the lie.

Studies show, if you show someone who is partisan names and pictures of things they're partisan about, the part of the brain with emotion activates in response, but the part of the brain that says 'is that true' doesn't activate. Their mind is made up.

This is a science, and there is big money that uses the science to influence public opinion. And they love to hear you say that both sides need to have some merit.

This is why, back when I had a sig here, it said "Ideology is the enemy." Now to be clear, I'm making two different points here - one is that both sides don't need to have merit, and the other is that you should question both.

This is why money is so corrupting in our system - a wrong and harmful conclusion has millions to spend to lie to the public, and there's little to no budget for the other side. There's a lot more spent to say 'climate change is fake' in the US than that 'climate change is real', for example.

And what do people say? Both sides have merit, right?

 

[woolfe9998]

I agree. Being opened minded doesn't mean seeing merit on both sides. It means seeing merit wherever merit is.

 

[Muse]

I thought it over before deciding which forum in which to post this, realizing certain consequences. This is not about news and it's not about any political events past or present. It's a discussion. I could have posted in the discussions forum but reasoned that it would get seen by a relatively small minority of members. Therefore I posted here.

And yes, I take pride in my open mindedness and am gratified that the nature of that personality attribute has taken central stage here. I am surprised, however, that the subject presented didn't get discussed at all, or so it seems to me. How did they glorify the term "conservative" and disparage the term "liberal"? To me it was a giant exercise in mass brainwashing perpetrated by professional prevaricators... of whom there are very many in the USA.

Edit: Ah, I see it was moved to P&N. Well, what do they say, you can't argue with city hall. You know, there's not always a right forum for any particular post. That can be a "grey area."

 

[Jaskalas]

So, I continue to wonder how they ever in any way anywhere gave liberal a bad connotation and how they gave conservative anything other than a bad connotation.

Seriously?

All society had to do was... redefine the words for themselves. Spread it with some modern communication, and any classical meaning has gone, extinct where people will not understand and/or look at you funny if you try to use the former definition. Language evolves all the time, and partisan US politics was in need of slang and labels.

How did they glorify the term "conservative" and disparage the term "liberal"?

Who is "they"? Fox News maybe, everyone else... not so much.

 

[dank69]

Seriously?

All society had to do was... redefine the words for themselves. Spread it with some modern communication, and any classical meaning has gone, extinct where people will not understand and/or look at you funny if you try to use the former definition. Language evolves all the time, and partisan US politics was in need of slang and labels.



Who is "they"? Fox News maybe, everyone else... not so much.

Conservatives have no problem spouting off about liberals in any social setting. Even most "independents" think liberals are worse than conservatives even if they think the GOP has gone insane.

 

[Craig234]

nm

 

[Moonbeam]

People hate themselves. We were all put down and made to feel worthless. Ego is the defense mechanism we erect to keep us from ever feeling the pain we were forced to experience to make us believe in that lie that we are worthless. That is our prison and why we can be made to believe anything. Lies are how we keep from remembering what happened to us, the fanciful altered reality that we are OK. We would rather die than know the truth that there is nothing really wrong with us. We live in catch 22.

Politics are about moral values we identify with because we were told we would be worthless without them. All that we believe makes us of value are external isms of one kind or another because we can't attribute any value to who we would have been had we never learned self hate.

 

[interchange]

Not the discussion I imagined walking into. And I don't agree that having an open mind means seeing merit where merit rests. That is called being correct, and although open mindedness gives greater opportunity to be correct, neither does it assure it, nor does correctness assure open mindedness.

I also think it absurd that, when it comes to political policy, there should be some expectation that there is a single correct answer.

I see a series of compromises. Perhaps you could determine which compromise is best, but that requires a universally agreed upon weighing of values in the context of time. And expecting that also seems laughable to me.

But I don't either seek or claim open mindedness. I have my values and ideas, and I seek to share them as such in order to see the external response and learn from that. And I also try to dig deeper when someone expresses their point of view because I want to be able to access their thinking and help get to its roots. Perhaps the product is more open mindedness, but that's not the explicit goal. I'm interested and enjoy it. And sometimes I hit a line that I do not agree with crossing. So I shut it down.

As for liberal and conservative, these are words that I think have poorly defined meanings, and I had trouble breaking the idea of them as synonyms for Democrat and Republican. Now I know better and would be viewed as fairly liberal for an American, but based on upbringing actually feel it easier to connect to the mindset of conservatives despite most often disagreeing. That doesn't bother me as much as a liberal who has little understanding or desire to understand the basis for their beliefs even if I share them.

 

[Jaskalas]

Conservatives have no problem spouting off about liberals in any social setting. Even most "independents" think liberals are worse than conservatives even if they think the GOP has gone insane.

What you describe is a consequence of there still being barriers between Democrats and dissatisfied Republicans / Libertarians. That'd they'd stick to smearing people with that label is a sign of their origin, their previous programing. They don't know or care what the classical meaning of Liberal is. All they know is Democrats are their "other" and the label they call them by.

Do CNN and MSNBC really rail against the "Liberal" label? Maybe they invite Conservative guests who would be foolish enough to do so. Roughly half the country identifies with Republicans, and the internet has allowed group-think like never before. Rambling Liberal this and Liberal that is really just a sign of carrying the disease of partisanship and screaming aloud which side they stand.

 

[Moonbeam]

I also think it absurd that, when it comes to political policy, there should be some expectation that there is a single correct answer.

How do you personally reconcile the fact there is no single answer ilooks a lot like a single answer?

 

[dank69]

What you describe is a consequence of there still being barriers between Democrats and dissatisfied Republicans / Libertarians. That'd they'd stick to smearing people with that label is a sign of their origin, their previous programing. They don't know or care what the classical meaning of Liberal is. All they know is Democrats are their "other" and the label they call them by.

Do CNN and MSNBC really rail against the "Liberal" label? Maybe they invite Conservative guests who would be foolish enough to do so. Roughly half the country identifies with Republicans, and the internet has allowed group-think like never before. Rambling Liberal this and Liberal that is really just a sign of carrying the disease of partisanship and screaming aloud which side they stand.

It's a dangerous combination of ignorance and arrogance and it has reached critical mass among the population thanks to non-stop conservative media cultivating this exact mindset.

 

[interchange]

How do you personally reconcile the fact there is no single answer ilooks a lot like a single answer?

Doesn't cause me that much anxiety. But if you want to go deeper you could get me there.

But that's my whole point. I am doing better personally by giving up on the fantasy that I'm going to accomplish some concrete goal, to find an explanation for something, etc. More fun to explore, and I do feel that doing so allows me to choose better approximate answers when it seems important to do so. I only wish more people enjoyed the exploration and didn't care so much whether either of us was "right" or "wrong".

 

[Jaskalas]

It's a dangerous combination of ignorance and arrogance and it has reached critical mass among the population thanks to non-stop conservative media cultivating this exact mindset.

While I do not believe you have the entire scope of it in mind, I do believe you are correct. Partisanship is dangerous, and our media has cultivated it... now extending into social media where the disease runs wild.

 

[FIVR]

People hate themselves. We were all put down and made to feel worthless. Ego is the defense mechanism we erect to keep us from ever feeling the pain we were forced to experience to make us believe in that lie that we are worthless. That is our prison and why we can be made to believe anything. Lies are how we keep from remembering what happened to us, the fanciful altered reality that we are OK. We would rather die than know the truth that there is nothing really wrong with us. We live in catch 22.

Politics are about moral values we identify with because we were told we would be worthless without them. All that we believe makes us of value are external isms of one kind or another because we can't attribute any value to who we would have been had we never learned self hate.

^Hates himself

 

[interchange]

It's a dangerous combination of ignorance and arrogance and it has reached critical mass among the population thanks to non-stop conservative media cultivating this exact mindset.

I agree with the problem and the effects of conservative media. But I think it is part of a larger story.

 

[dank69]

I agree with the problem and the effects of conservative media. But I think it is part of a larger story.

Yeah the larger story of making people feel good about themselves by telling them that their lack of education doesn't make them stupid, it actually makes them smarter, because education is stupid and done by liberals so it's really just indoctrination. The larger story of making them feel good because they are the smart ones for seeing through the liberal mainstream media lies. That fancy college education doesn't help prevent stupid liberals from being manipulated, but conservatives and their "common sense" are immune.

 

[Moonbeam]

Doesn't cause me that much anxiety. But if you want to go deeper you could get me there.

But that's my whole point. I am doing better personally by giving up on the fantasy that I'm going to accomplish some concrete goal, to find an explanation for something, etc. More fun to explore, and I do feel that doing so allows me to choose better approximate answers when it seems important to do so. I only wish more people enjoyed the exploration and didn't care so much whether either of us was "right" or "wrong".

I think I have mentioned once or twice that people hate themselves. If so, and if, as I have also said, the ego is a buffer we had to erect to protect ourselves from the agony of constant awareness of that thus making mental health the capacity to accept greater and greater negative facts about ourselves via feeling what we feel and integrating what we can learn about ourselves, our past, by opening ourselves to our worst fears.

Conversely, disfunction would lie in the direction of ego identification with external so called moral goods.

To experience these truths on a personal feeling level would, perhaps you can see, quite problematic. To have once been quite like everybody else, full of self confident ego, and to have in a therapeutic situation, broken into those feelings, lef me just say, was quite a surprise. Fortunately I las led there by somebody who had gone all the way and was, as he would say, 99.999 percent sure that he was OK. I am then a believer, but before that came a loss of faith in all truth.

 

[Moonbeam]

Yeah the larger story of making people feel good about themselves by telling them that their lack of education doesn't make them stupid, it actually makes them smarter, because education is stupid and done by liberals so it's really just indoctrination. The larger story of making them feel good because they are the smart ones for seeing through the liberal mainstream media lies. That fancy college education doesn't help prevent stupid liberals from being manipulated, but conservatives and their "common sense" are immune.

If people actually have unconscious feelings of worthlessness including being intellectually inferior, it would explain why many find that form of low level thinking appealing. Smarter people are more acutely aware of how poor our brains are but can still be very competitive in projecting superiority. Ego is a protector against negative self awareness. We would not have survived without it but now it keeps us prisoners. We don't know what we feel.

 

[Moonbeam]

If people actually have unconscious feelings of worthlessness including being intellectually inferior, it would explain why many find that form of low level thinking appealing. Smarter people are more acutely aware of how poor our brains are but can still be very competitive in projecting superiority. Ego is a protector against negative self awareness. We would not have survived

^Hates himself

Sure but you also want me to. My hope is that is you could see the monster within you that has that wish, you might be able to get past it. I piss you off because I know what you feel and are too undeveloped, so far, to face. All the negatives you wish on me I already. feel. You will get no real relief from your own pain trying to give me something I already have and am aware of. It is that awareness that you fear.