Libertarian views Vs. the opposition

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daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
They desegregated, but you have to remember that there was DE-FACTO market segregation. Having hundreds/thousands of black protestors forcing themselves on woolworths property put them in a no-win situation. They were angering white customers and the white customers even physically assaulted them. Of course they're going to lose business. Why go to woolworths when you can go to another segregated store where you won't have to 'put up with that'?

As i quoted above, Woolworth's didn't want to desegregate because the rest of the businesses remained segregated and thus put Woolworths at a competitive disadvantage if they were the only desegregated business.

I am not clear on what you mean when you say there was DE-FACTO market segregation, are you saying that after woolworths ended their policy, the segregation continued, or are you saying something else? I mean this as an honest question because I am not quite understanding your point.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
776
126
I am not clear on what you mean when you say there was DE-FACTO market segregation, are you saying that after woolworths ended their policy, the segregation continued, or are you saying something else? I mean this as an honest question because I am not quite understanding your point.

De facto is a Latin expression that means "by [the] fact." In law, it means "in practice but not necessarily ordained by law"

Yes. Woolworths ended their segregation in 1960, but:

http://www.usm.edu/crdp/html/cd/woolworth.htm

May 28, 1963

A crowd of people heckle Tougaloo students participating in a sit-in at the Woolworth's lunch counter in Jackson. The crowd began with jeers and taunts but soon progressed to beating and kicking the protesters. According to John Dittmer in Local People, the store manager had to shut down the store, and the demonstrators left under police protection. Seated from left to right are John Salter, Joan Trumpauer and Anne Moody.

Even 3 years after woolworths desegregated (and 1 year BEFORE the civil rights act), you could not safely sit in those lunch counters to eat in peace. If woolworths desegregated 3 years earlier, why do they need to do sit-ins still?
 
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mammador

Platinum Member
Dec 9, 2010
2,128
1
76
Libertarianism is pie in the sky. It means well, but it's values are way off the norm in contemporary society.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
No shit their sales dropped so much, the black activists specifically targeted them whether they were forcibly sitting in their stores or outside protesting the store, they drove away customers, especially when there was violence from white patrons involved. You're confusing the issue and thinking it was a voluntary drop in sales because whites were somehow disgusted with the racial segregation and refused to shop in woolworths when in fact it was because they were driving away customers.

There's nothing to confuse, they endured six months of boycott and finally when their sales dropped too much they change their policy.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
776
126
There's nothing to confuse, they endured six months of boycott and finally when their sales dropped too much they change their policy.

Yes, it's amazing that sales dropped with black activists protesting outside their store driving away white people away and dropping sales.

Also, 3 years later:

http://www.usm.edu/crdp/html/cd/woolworth.htm

May 28, 1963

A crowd of people heckle Tougaloo students participating in a sit-in at the Woolworth's lunch counter in Jackson. The crowd began with jeers and taunts but soon progressed to beating and kicking the protesters. According to John Dittmer in Local People, the store manager had to shut down the store, and the demonstrators left under police protection. Seated from left to right are John Salter, Joan Trumpauer and Anne Moody.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
776
126
I didn't avoid it, I ignored it because it is not relevant.

No, you avoided it because sit-ins at the SAME establishment 3 years after woolworth's desegregation makes your argument look stupid as hell.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
No, you avoided it because sit-ins at the SAME establishment 3 years after woolworth's desegregation makes your argument look stupid as hell.

It's not really "my" argument, I just posted a link that reinforced that this ...

The reason they desegregated was because black activists specifically targetted woolworths (and Kress stores) by the hundreds and thousands disrupted their businesses.

...wasn't entirely true. If it had been simply because of a disruption in business it wouldn't have taken six months, but once sales slacked off they changed their policy.
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
No, you avoided it because sit-ins at the SAME establishment 3 years after woolworth's desegregation makes your argument look stupid as hell.

Different locations, the 1960 one was in Greensboro, the 1963 was in Jackson Mississippi. I am still trying to find more on the 1963 one, most importantly why they were staging a sit in when the company had supposedly desegregated.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Please provide an example of a civilization built on a the democrat ideal.

The 'Democratic ideal' is more about the progressive wing of Democrats, not corporatists.

There are the changes to America made by progressive movements, many only possible during Democratic super-majoritys in Congress, in the 20th century, greatly increasing the well-being of Americans - worker power/wages/conditions, consumer protectoin, equal rights, and much more.

There's California before the Republican Prop 13 in its 'golden age', or things it does today despite the Republican-caused problems.

There is much to look at in many countries such as Chile when democracy finally took hold and elected Allende - who Nixon promptly had executed and replaced by Pinochet.

There are many things about Europe where they have enacted a far more 'Democratic' set of policies, such as a stronger safety net, universal healthcare.

Scandanavia has a few countries with largely 'Democratic' policies. They're doing great.

Canada is much closer to the progressive Democrats overall. They're doing great.

For example, like the progressives, they did not have the high levels of finance industry
corruption of politics, and did better in the crash.

We could compare the wealth generation of Democratic states - California, Massachusetts, New York - with Republican states - the deep south, the midwest.

There has never been and never will be a 'Libertarian country' utopia like Libertarians are deluded into thinking they can have.

Who knows what would happened if the founding of the US had taken a different turn - the same colonies, leaders, but with a more Libertarian, localized set of policies?

Maybe be more anti-tax and make it more voluntary?

Oh, wait, they did, it was called the 'Articles of Confederation', and it failed.
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
0
Please provide an example of a civilization built on a the democrat ideal.


France, Britain, Germany. Easy.



Germany is a Federal Republic

France is a Parliamentary Republic

Great Britain is a Constitutional Monarchy

And First is an idiot for not knowing what he's talking about.


Not Fail, but he forgot a bunch others, like the US.

Of course you're using your Fail Covered glasses to come up with the old Democracy = x argument. Double Fail for transparency



The United States is also a (Federal/Constitutional) Republic. Not a Democracy.



There are exactly *ZERO* Democracys around today, and haven't been since ancient Greece.
 
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Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
there are exactly *zero* democracys around today, and haven't been since ancient greece.

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Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
0
The fail is you guys for not knowing the difference between a Democracy and a Republic. You must have been skipping social studies to go smoke pot.


In a "real" Democracy, decisions are made directly by the people. *Nobody* does this today: It'd just too damned unweildy.

In a Republic, the people elect Representatives to conduct the nation's business on their behalf.


The United States is a Constitutional, Federal Republic.


(edit)

Since you guys spent so much time skipping class, here:

Absolute monarchy - a form of government where the monarch rules unhindered, i.e., without any laws, constitution, or legally organized oposition.


Anarchy - a condition of lawlessness or political disorder brought about by the absence of governmental authority.


Authoritarian - a form of government in which state authority is imposed onto many aspects of citizens' lives.


Commonwealth - a nation, state, or other political entity founded on law and united by a compact of the people for the common good.


Communist - a system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single - often authoritarian - party holds power; state controls are imposed with the elimination of private ownership of property or capital while claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people (i.e., a classless society).


Confederacy (Confederation) - a union by compact or treaty between states, provinces, or territories, that creates a central government with limited powers; the constituent entities retain supreme authority over all matters except those delegated to the central government.


Constitutional - a government by or operating under an authoritative document (constitution) that sets forth the system of fundamental laws and principles that determines the nature, functions, and limits of that government.


Constitutional democracy - a form of government in which the sovereign power of the people is spelled out in a governing constitution.


Constitutional monarchy - a system of government in which a monarch is guided by a constitution whereby his/her rights, duties, and responsibilities are spelled out in written law or by custom.


Democracy - a form of government in which the supreme power is retained by the people, but which is usually exercised indirectly through a system of representation and delegated authority periodically renewed.


Democratic republic - a state in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.


Dictatorship - a form of government in which a ruler or small clique wield absolute power (not restricted by a constitution or laws).


Ecclesiastical - a government administrated by a church.


Emirate - similar to a monarchy or sultanate, but a government in which the supreme power is in the hands of an emir (the ruler of a Muslim state); the emir may be an absolute overlord or a sovereign with constitutionally limited authority.


Federal (Federation) - a form of government in which sovereign power is formally divided - usually by means of a constitution - between a central authority and a number of constituent regions (states, colonies, or provinces) so that each region retains some management of its internal affairs; differs from a confederacy in that the central government exerts influence directly upon both individuals as well as upon the regional units.


Federal republic - a state in which the powers of the central government are restricted and in which the component parts (states, colonies, or provinces) retain a degree of self-government; ultimate sovereign power rests with the voters who chose their governmental representatives.


Islamic republic - a particular form of government adopted by some Muslim states; although such a state is, in theory, a theocracy, it remains a republic, but its laws are required to be compatible with the laws of Islam.


Maoism - the theory and practice of Marxism-Leninism developed in China by Mao Zedong (Mao Tse-tung), which states that a continuous revolution is necessary if the leaders of a communist state are to keep in touch with the people.


Marxism - the political, economic, and social principles espoused by 19th century economist Karl Marx; he viewed the struggle of workers as a progression of historical forces that would proceed from a class struggle of the proletariat (workers) exploited by capitalists (business owners), to a socialist "dictatorship of the proletariat," to, finally, a classless society - Communism.


Marxism-Leninism - an expanded form of communism developed by Lenin from doctrines of Karl Marx; Lenin saw imperialism as the final stage of capitalism and shifted the focus of workers' struggle from developed to underdeveloped countries.


Monarchy - a government in which the supreme power is lodged in the hands of a monarch who reigns over a state or territory, usually for life and by hereditary right; the monarch may be either a sole absolute ruler or a sovereign - such as a king, queen, or prince - with constitutionally limited authority.


Oligarchy - a government in which control is exercised by a small group of individuals whose authority generally is based on wealth or power.


Parliamentary democracy - a political system in which the legislature (parliament) selects the government - a prime minister, premier, or chancellor along with the cabinet ministers - according to party strength as expressed in elections; by this system, the government acquires a dual responsibility: to the people as well as to the parliament.


Parliamentary government (Cabinet-Parliamentary government) - a government in which members of an executive branch (the cabinet and its leader - a prime minister, premier, or chancellor) are nominated to their positions by a legislature or parliament, and are directly responsible to it; this type of government can be dissolved at will by the parliament (legislature) by means of a no confidence vote or the leader of the cabinet may dissolve the parliament if it can no longer function.


Parliamentary monarchy - a state headed by a monarch who is not actively involved in policy formation or implementation (i.e., the exercise of sovereign powers by a monarch in a ceremonial capacity); true governmental leadership is carried out by a cabinet and its head - a prime minister, premier, or chancellor - who are drawn from a legislature (parliament).


Presidential - a system of government where the executive branch exists separately from a legislature (to which it is generally not accountable).


Republic - a representative democracy in which the people's elected deputies (representatives), not the people themselves, vote on legislation.


Socialism - a government in which the means of planning, producing, and distributing goods is controlled by a central government that theoretically seeks a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor; in actuality, most socialist governments have ended up being no more than dictatorships over workers by a ruling elite.


Sultanate - similar to a monarchy, but a government in which the supreme power is in the hands of a sultan (the head of a Muslim state); the sultan may be an absolute ruler or a sovereign with constitutionally limited authority.


Theocracy - a form of government in which a Deity is recognized as the supreme civil ruler, but the Deity's laws are interpreted by ecclesiastical authorities (bishops, mullahs, etc.); a government subject to religious authority.


Totalitarian - a government that seeks to subordinate the individual to the state by controlling not only all political and economic matters, but also the attitudes, values, and beliefs of its population.
 
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Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
No one was talking about government types. He was speaking of ideals, we are known as a "liberal democracy" (as the rest of the western first world is known as).

But yes, our government type is a constitutional republic kudos on missing the point.
 
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Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
He stated ideal, all western first world countries are "Liberal Democracies"

Liberal democracy (bourgeois democracy or constitutional democracy) is a common form of representative democracy. According to the principles of liberal democracy, the elections should be free and fair, and the political process should be competitive. Political pluralism is usually defined as the presence of multiple and distinct political parties.
A liberal democracy may take various constitutional forms: it may be a federal republic, as the United States, India, Germany or Brazil, or a constitutional monarchy, such as the United Kingdom, Japan, Canada or Spain. It may have a presidential system (United States, Brazil), a parliamentary system (Westminster system, UK and Commonwealth countries), or a hybrid, semi-presidential system (France).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy
 
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