Libertarians.....what do you think???

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jaydee

Diamond Member
May 6, 2000
4,500
3
81


<< History illustrates several pivotal moments where if we actually adopted libertarian ideals, it would detrimental for our society and our country. Libertarianism IMO only works when either (1) we ignore social problems, (2) or we no longer care. >>


Ummm, did I miss something? Surly you have examples of these &quot;pivotal moments&quot; to prove me wrong. I can only think of moments where socialist ideals are detremental to society.

Gandulf, (there I said it, your name, not junior, everyone happy baconfat?)


<< Where as you I'm sure are not hurting from paying taxes too much from paying taxes. The old rely on government subsidies to pay for medication and hospital bills. When everyone is dumped into a pool and told to find their own insurance, how many companies are going to rush in and offer programs to 80 year old diabetes patients. None. And they would have no incentive to. >>


I strongly disagree. Go here California non-profit orginizations and find 567 non-profit orginizations in one measley state alone. True California's the biggest, but there are tons of organizations of the private sectors that aid those in need. There incentive is to help other people. Thats why its non-profit. Donations are also big with large corporations if thats not enough. You see all the time, big companies donating large sums of money to charities. For example, yahoo, recently had a banner that when clicked, they donated X amount to a breast cancer research. There's plenty of incentive. Give your company a good name, as well as excellent commercial oppertunities involved. Look at the newspaper, &quot;(enter big business here) donates (enter large sum of money here), to (enter charity here). It's about advertisement, thats there incentive. Look at PBS.


<< Federal regulations are in place to protect the public and without them, companies will rule our lives. Your ideas would make insurance companies even more powerful than they already are and would make the rich richer and the poor poorer. >>


Libertarian ideas are to help those who help themselves, not help those who choose not to help themselves. Non-profit orginizations and business's will help those who can't help themselves, as well as the general public.
 

jaydee

Diamond Member
May 6, 2000
4,500
3
81


<< When everyone is dumped into a pool and told to find their own insurance >>



Everyone is in a pool now, with state and federal health plans. We would allow people to venture out from the pool, and discover the outside plans and decide for themselves instead of having a regulation handed to you no questions asked. Insurance companies will compete with other companies. That will keep prices down. Ford, Chrysler, and GM compete with each other. They all want to build the best cars for the lowest price. You don't need Clinton to build cars now, to keep the big three in check. They are well capable themselves without inept gov't, interferring.
 

Gandalf511

Member
Oct 13, 2000
195
0
0
First off I'd appreciate if you at least look at the names before misspelling them. Second, answer the questions rather than going off on a tangent.

<< Where as you I'm sure are not hurting from paying taxes too much from paying taxes. The old rely on government subsidies to pay for medication and hospital bills. When everyone is dumped into a pool and told to find their own insurance, how many companies are going to rush in and offer programs to 80 year old diabetes patients. None. And they would have no incentive to. >>


I strongly disagree. Go here California non-profit orginizations and find 567 non-profit orginizations in one measley state alone. True California's the biggest, but there are tons of organizations of the private sectors that aid those in need. There incentive is to help other people. Thats why its non-profit. Donations are also big with large corporations if thats not enough. You see all the time, big companies donating large sums of money to charities. For example, yahoo, recently had a banner that when clicked, they donated X amount to a breast cancer research. There's plenty of incentive. Give your company a good name, as well as excellent commercial oppertunities involved. Look at the newspaper, &quot;(enter big business here) donates (enter large sum of money here), to (enter charity here). It's about advertisement, thats there incentive. Look at PBS.

Your ramble in no way answered the point that no insurance agency will insure older patrons with medical problems. Feel free to try again or concede the point. Second, people already have a choice as to what insurance they want. They can pay for any insurance company that will insure them, just as they would under your idea.

Ford, Chrysler, and GM compete with each other. They all want to build the best cars for the lowest price. You don't need Clinton to build cars now, to keep the big three in check. They are well capable themselves without inept gov't, interferring.

Without government regulation each of these companies would make cars that get 17 mpg and have no health standards. That's how they made them before government regulations.

Finally as for charity, it's a great thing, and I personally donate my hours to different causes. However faith based charity (the largest charity groups in the nation) donate only 15 billion dollars a year to the needy. This is opposed to over 60 times that number by the federal government. Without this aid, the poor will be screwed as will the elderly, as will war veterans and others who need help.
 

inquis

Member
Jul 19, 2000
181
0
0
OMG, this thread is still going on?

Oh well, after I get done writing this paper that I'm working on now, I'll jump back in this. Thank god discussion has gotten away from guns.

What is it now? Health care? Goody.

-inq
 

inquis

Member
Jul 19, 2000
181
0
0
And please, gentlemen, no flaming. If I weren't so interested in te subject matter, I would be more than happy to serve as moderator for this discussion.

Flames and condescention only cloud the issues at hand.

-inq
 

jaydee

Diamond Member
May 6, 2000
4,500
3
81


<< Your ramble in no way answered the point that no insurance agency will insure older patrons with medical problems. Feel free to try again or concede the point. Second, people already have a choice as to what insurance they want. They can pay for any insurance company that will insure them, just as they would under your idea. >>


You already stated your approval of socialist health care, that's what I was refering to. United Way, Make-A-Wish, hundredes more, help those in need, be it any disease you can find most likely. Why would they skip around diabetes? Combine those with big business's with advertisement oppertunities, along with individuals from the private sector, and you have many, many, many, many people working for disabled, disease, 80 year old's with diabetes, you name it. Add that with the plan to eliminate income tax, giving people even more money to spend, and look what you got. What part of this don't you understand?
 

lowfatbaconboy

Golden Member
Oct 21, 2000
1,796
0
0
If companies are so eager to do all this charitable work, why aren't they doing it now? Companies don't like giving away money even if it helps their name or even their customers. That's the way they work. The libertarian platform on this requires alot of unlikely &quot;if's&quot; to work. If they could come up with a solid substansive plan to carry out these ideas that would be one thing, but the current stance of &quot;this is how it should be&quot; doesn't achieve anything. That's the key seperation between the parties in power and the libertarians. You guys have interesting (if misled) ideas, but no thoughts on how to logically implement them. I think this thread is dieing out. On to new threads.
 

jaydee

Diamond Member
May 6, 2000
4,500
3
81


<< Without government regulation each of these companies would make cars that get 17 mpg and have no health standards. That's how they made them before government regulations. >>


Oh, please. The gov't does not regulate commerce (and God forbid the day it does). The people who buy the products do. Besides the gov't screws the enviroment more than the anyone else does in the first place. They just do it in less obvious ways, not exploited. Ever hear of the &quot;love canal scandal&quot;? An overview:Love Canal is actually a trench, rather than a canal, near Niagara Falls, New York. It was intended to be a canal but the project was abandoned in the early 20th century. From 1920 onward the trench was a trash and chemical disposal site. In 1942 the Hooker Chemical &amp; Plastics Company, a subsidiary of Occidental Petroleum, purchased Love Canal.



<< The company buried its toxic wastes in the trench, and allowed the city of Niagara Falls and the U.S. Army to dump wastes there as well. Hooker took special pains with the waste material long before toxic wastes were a public issue, making sure it was buried in a way that prevented leaks.

In 1953 the Niagara Falls Board of Education decided it wanted to build a school on top of the trench. The Hooker executives refused to sell the property because of the buried wastes -- afraid that any construction would cause gases to escape.

But the Board of Education persisted and threatened to confiscate the property by eminent domain. And so Hooker agreed to sell Love Canal to the school board for $1 -- provided that the deed of sale included a prohibition on any construction over the buried toxic wastes. The school board agreed, promising to use that area only for a playground.

But within one year the government school board violated the contract and announced its intention to construct the school directly on top of the toxic wastes. Hooker protested publicly and vehemently, citing the danger involved. The school board ignored the warnings and built the school anyway. And the presence of the school soon led to the building of new homes around it.

By the 1970s the chemical wastes were leaking, and nearby residents complained of odors and fumes. A consulting company investigated and recommended a number of measures that might reseal the wastes and stop the leakage. But the city government ignored the recommendations.

Finally, in 1978 a state agency investigated and recommended closing the school, evacuating all pregnant women from the area, and banning the eating of home-grown vegetables. The state purchased and leveled 239 of the homes near the canal. Eventually, everyone in the Love Canal area was evacuated and relocated -- paid for by the state and federal governments.

The Love Canal scandal was widely publicized. Hooker Chemical Company was condemned by politicians, journalists, and the public as a heartless, irresponsible company for having dumped toxic wastes into Love Canal.

But no one seemed to want to ask the obvious and important question: why did the school board build on top of a trench that was known to contain toxic wastes -- especially in the face of Hooker's public warnings? And why did the government school board ignore the deed restriction that prohibited it from building over the wastes &ntilde; a deed restriction that Hooker Chemical had insisted upon? And why was it that the wastes had never been a problem until the government decided to disturb them?

Hooker was forced to pay out over $200 million in settlements to residents and reimbursement to government agencies -- even though Hooker was the only entity involved that acted responsibly.

The true story of Love Canal was always available to any reporter who cared to know the truth. Hooker's protests against building a school there were a matter of public record. The city archives contained the deed of sale, showing the stipulation against building on the waste site. Old newspapers carried reports of the public hearings at which Hooker warned against building on the canal.

But at the time of the scandal, the networks and wire services relied for their &quot;facts&quot; on the politicians' self-serving accusations against Hooker Chemical &amp; Plastics Company. The company's reputation never recovered.

Eventually, Eric Zuesse of Reason magazine dug up the truth and published it. But by then the press and the politicians had moved on to new examples of &quot;corporate greed&quot; and no one in the national press paid attention to Zuesse' findings.

The Love Canal affair may appear to be an unusual example, but only because you now know details about it that the general press doesn't usually report. Reporters always seem to believe the worst about private companies -- while assuming that only government agencies are interested in protecting the environment.

Meanwhile, the politicians have the greatest interest in exploiting any scandal by condemning private freedom and supporting increased government power.

But the truth is that government isn't the answer. Politicians and government administrators have no incentive to preserve government properties, because they have no stake in the future value of those properties. Private executives must answer to shareholders, and they must be able to show that company-owned properties aren't deteriorating in value.

So only private companies can be counted on to treat their properties carefully.
>>



Furthermore:



<< The ravaging of government lands by politically connected companies has been well-publicized for years -- even if the press has ignored the fact that government managers shouldn't have allowed anyone to pollute government property.

But now evidence is coming to light of how badly government itself is polluting its own property.

In November 1999 the Boston Globe published a 4-part series that documented how badly government has ravaged its own holdings.

Here is how David Armstrong, the Globe reporter, summarized the situation:

The United States government, which acts as steward and protector of the nation's environment, is itself the worst polluter in the land.

Federal agencies have contaminated more than 60,000 sites across the country and the cost of cleaning up the worst sites is officially expected to approach $300 billion, nearly five times the price of similar destruction caused by private companies. . . .

Nearly every military base and nuclear arms facility in the country is contaminated. The pollution extends from the US Mint, which released hazardous chemicals into the air when producing commemorative coins, to the national parks, where leaky oil tanks and raw sewage are polluting pristine rivers.

Even the Environmental Protection Agency [EPA], charged with enforcing the country's environmental laws, has been fined for violating toxic waste laws at its laboratories. At the EPA's lab in Lexington, for example, mercury was discovered leaching into the ground water three years ago. [&quot;The Nation's Dirty Big Secret,&quot; The Boston Globe, November 14, 1999]

From raw sewage flowing into the lakes and streams of Yellowstone National Park to U.S. Navy oil spills in Washington's Puget Sound to PCBs making fish inedible in the Shenandoah River, the administrators of government facilities have paid no attention to the devastation they've caused. And why should they? Unlike private companies, government agencies are exempt from almost all the strict, expensive laws the politicians pass to demonstrate their concern for the environment.

The EPA has estimated that it will cost about $57 billion to clean up all the privately owned SuperFund sites in America. If that price tag seems large, consider that the EPA estimates the cost of cleaning up all the sites polluted directly by the federal government to be at least $280 billion.

This isn't an accident. It isn't a case of hiring the wrong people to manage government property or to run government agencies. It is the direct result of giving control of property to people who have no personal interest in its future value.

The solution to America's pollution problems is to get as much property as possible out of the hands of government. Private owners will always take better care of land and other resources, because they worry about the future resale value of these resources. Government administrators have no reason to care about the future value of anything under their care.
>>


When will you realize?
How about this?


<< To say that government must force manufacturers to provide clean cars is to ignore history -- and to ignore the fact that companies have a strong motivation to provide what people want. Having politicians determine what's good for people is a recipe for exploiting people on behalf of those with the most political influence.

And fifth, when decisions are made politically, they are almost always made without regard to all the potential consequences. The EPA has forced car-makers to build smaller cars. The rationale is to produce more fuel-efficient cars that will reduce the demand for gasoline and that will save lives by reducing the air pollution that fuel produces.

Both reasons ignore more important considerations. The desire for fuel efficiency was born in the 1970s when price controls on oil and natural gas in the U.S. discouraged the development of new petroleum sources to compete with the OPEC oil cartel. Since the price controls were removed in 1981, oil production has boomed, oil prices have plummeted, and there has been no need to conserve oil. But the perception that fuel efficiency is somehow virtuous remains with us to this day.

And meanwhile lives are being lost because smaller cars are more dangerous than larger cars. In fact, more traffic deaths are caused by reducing the size of cars than have been saved by reducing air pollution. The Competitive Enterprise Institute estimates that between 2,600 and 4,500 of 1998's 21,000 car deaths were attributable to the smaller cars that were produced to conform to the EPA's fuel economy standards. And a 1989 study by Harvard University and the Brookings Institute estimates that fuel-economy mandates cause a 14-27% increase in yearly traffic deaths.
>>



 

Gandalf511

Member
Oct 13, 2000
195
0
0
Your reply jaydee proved bacon boy's point. Your telling us how horrible the government is but you have no idea as to how to clean it up. Also, lowfat said in his post that the car companies would go back to making 17 mpg cars. The last article/whatever you posted agreed with that idea, saying that we need to go back to big cars. They said the only reason to make fuel conserving cars is to save money, and ignored the idea of saving the environment.

Also, Texas (thanks to our beloved Governor), has tryed a self inforcement policy for big businesses and their waste and it has failed horribly. The air quality and pollution levels rank among the lowest states in the nation. Show me a solid plan to reduce pollution (even by the government), and we'll discuss that but saying let's take out government regulations and regulatory agenices simply doesn't make since.
 

lowfatbaconboy

Golden Member
Oct 21, 2000
1,796
0
0
Ok then what is the libertarian's plan for cleaning up the environment???
Your basing your argument on the theory that the gov is infalable but the problem is they are so you can't just say omg the us dumped 1 kg of toxic waste and ignore the companies that dump much much more.
Are you saying that all the country's waste is mainly due to the United States? I will bet you that out of all the industries and corporations out there private business and individual' waste is the leading cause. I will look into stats on how much private business pollute. The libertarians have not given us general examples...such as countries that work with their policies. (I know we have with their stats) You give specific localized examples. It was not the state nor the federal governments fault that the idoits at the school board decided to build a school there. That was the 1940s-70s when morals were different. Now days I would say more companies would rather make more money than protect their customers at their expense.

Take ford for example, after test the suvs they built the did pass the gov't roll over test. So instead of making the car differently they came up with a cheap solution: Under inflate the tires so it won't roll over. Although when you under inflate the tires from 36lbs to like 25 or so lbs the tires life is drasticly shortened and they fall apart/ pop easier. So instead of redesigning the car they did the less costly way which is now killing people. BTW 60% of SUV crashes are 1 car accidents (ie roll overs).

We use to have gov standards on cars that made companies make cars that were fuel efficient but no dumbass bush (sr.) had to repeal that. So now we have SUVs and gas guzzlers. My only consolation is the knowledge that the SUV owners will have to pay higher gas prices. People in the United States are way to greedy -- in Europe gas is like 4 dollars a gallon.
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
1
81
<< We use to have gov standards on cars that made companies make cars that were fuel efficient but no dumbass bush (sr.) had to repeal that. So now we have SUVs and gas guzzlers. >>

Whoa, checkswing here. Current EPA regulations are at a 20 year low! This happened under Clinton/Gore, folks. EPA requirements on automobilies today, on average, are what they were in 1980.

You seem to be under the illusion that government really cares about environmental issues. Oftentimes one standard is set, a good standard, only to be disregarded by the very people who enacted it (the federal government is a large part of the pollution problem...they pollute &quot;their own&quot; property or subet the &quot;their&quot; property out to businesses who pollute it).

Obviously, some regulation is required or some cities will become death zones. But the libertarians are correct in thinking if citizens own the property they're likely to take care of it. Regulation should kick in when property owners begin to affect other property owners.
 

GoofusMaximus

Member
May 22, 2000
31
0
0
You folks might find Jerry Pournelle's article on &quot;The Difference between Republic and Empire&quot; interesting. It's over at The View at Jerry Pournelle's web site. Scroll down to Sunday, to read it.

Even if they don't win, voting for a party like Libertarians or the Green Party, will help them to get Federal Matching Funds in the next election.
 

jaydee

Diamond Member
May 6, 2000
4,500
3
81


<< Your telling us how horrible the government is but you have no idea as to how to clean it up. >>


I GAVE YOU A REAL LIFE EXAMPLE, DON'T TWIST MY WORDS. Holy cow. Perhaps, I should refrain from using facts, that go against your beloved lying, cheating President, and the moral drinking and driving Republicans?

<<<In November 1999 the Boston Globe published a 4-part series that documented how badly government has ravaged its own holdings.

Here is how David Armstrong, the Globe reporter, summarized the situation:

The United States government, which acts as steward and protector of the nation's environment, is itself the worst polluter in the land.

Federal agencies have contaminated more than 60,000 sites across the country and the cost of cleaning up the worst sites is officially expected to approach $300 billion, nearly five times the price of similar destruction caused by private companies. . . .

Nearly every military base and nuclear arms facility in the country is contaminated. The pollution extends from the US Mint, which released hazardous chemicals into the air when producing commemorative coins, to the national parks, where leaky oil tanks and raw sewage are polluting pristine rivers.

Even the Environmental Protection Agency [EPA], charged with enforcing the country's environmental laws, has been fined for violating toxic waste laws at its laboratories. At the EPA's lab in Lexington, for example, mercury was discovered leaching into the ground water three years ago. [&quot;The Nation's Dirty Big Secret,&quot; The Boston Globe, November 14, 1999]

From raw sewage flowing into the lakes and streams of Yellowstone National Park to U.S. Navy oil spills in Washington's Puget Sound to PCBs making fish inedible in the Shenandoah River, the administrators of government facilities have paid no attention to the devastation they've caused. And why should they? Unlike private companies, government agencies are exempt from almost all the strict, expensive laws the politicians pass to demonstrate their concern for the environment.

The EPA has estimated that it will cost about $57 billion to clean up all the privately owned SuperFund sites in America. If that price tag seems large, consider that the EPA estimates the cost of cleaning up all the sites polluted directly by the federal government to be at least $280 billion.

This isn't an accident. It isn't a case of hiring the wrong people to manage government property or to run government agencies. It is the direct result of giving control of property to people who have no personal interest in its future value.

The solution to America's pollution problems is to get as much property as possible out of the hands of government. Private owners will always take better care of land and other resources, because they worry about the future resale value of these resources. Government administrators have no reason to care about the future value of anything under their care. >>>



<< Also, lowfat said in his post that the car companies would go back to making 17 mpg cars. The last article/whatever you posted agreed with that idea, saying that we need to go back to big cars. They said the only reason to make fuel conserving cars is to save money, and ignored the idea of saving the environment. >>


If you read the last article, you'd know, it proved that bigger cars save lives. Which do you prefer, saving people, or seagulls in the city? Read it again, then come back to me, because you obviously didn't get it the first time through.


<< Are you saying that all the country's waste is mainly due to the United States? >>


I think it would be fair to say the United States's waste is due to the United States.


<< I will bet you that out of all the industries and corporations out there private business and individual' waste is the leading cause. I will look into stats on how much private business pollute. >>


I bet not.


<< Take ford for example, after test the suvs they built the did pass the gov't roll over test. So instead of making the car differently they came up with a cheap solution: Under inflate the tires so it won't roll over. Although when you under inflate the tires from 36lbs to like 25 or so lbs the tires life is drasticly shortened and they fall apart/ pop easier. So instead of redesigning the car they did the less costly way which is now killing people. BTW 60% of SUV crashes are 1 car accidents (ie roll overs). >>


Yeah, and I'm just sure, they killed those lives on purpose. Really, look how benificial it's been to the Ford/Firestone companies. They're getting real popular right about now. And FYI, underinflating tires, is not the most money saving way to go. And your beloved gov't had no regulation on that in the first place, showing how effective they are.


<< So now we have SUVs and gas guzzlers. My only consolation is the knowledge that the SUV owners will have to pay higher gas prices. People in the United States are way to greedy -- in Europe gas is like 4 dollars a gallon. >>


Well cry me a river. I didn't know you were against saftey in the evant of an accident. How about good, 'ol Northern U.S. winters? Lemme guess. You wouldn't want people to have the option of four-wheel drive vehicles, that are substantially safer, and better handling, and gives you much less chance to get stuck in the snow. Stupid gas-guzzlers. Who are they to say, what vehicle they drive. Who cares, if it's there money they bought it with. Who care's if they pay the gas on it.
 
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