Libya

[irishScott]

Just how are those weapons supposed to enforce a no-fly zone or not kill civilians? According to Wiki, the cruise missiles cost $600,000 each. Maybe a good bang-for-your-buck, but still not cheap.

There are a crapload of places on this planet where the U.S. could send military assistance and "help" people, but does not. Why is Libya different?

Because the Libyan rebels have already taken half the country and are apparently pressing for some sort of Democracy. Promoting democracy is in our interest.

 

[wuliheron]

Just how are those weapons supposed to enforce a no-fly zone or not kill civilians? According to Wiki, the cruise missiles cost $600,000 each. Maybe a good bang-for-your-buck, but still not cheap.

There are a crapload of places on this planet where the U.S. could send military assistance and "help" people, but does not. Why is Libya different?

I'm not arguing that we should help Lybia, merely that its relatively cheap. Not cheap by my standards, but by the standards of people like Paris Hilton who own everything including the government and sometimes spend $6,000.oo on lunch. These are people used to getting their own way and the deaths of a few peasants certainly haven't stopped the US from killing hundreds in this manner every year.

 

[tk149]

Because the Libyan rebels have already taken half the country and are apparently pressing for some sort of Democracy. Promoting democracy is in our interest.

Let's promote democracy by bombing the shit out of them (wuliheron said use cruise missiles and predator drones). That'll really endear us to them.

How about just enforcing a no-fly zone? Let's not worry about any pilots who might get shot down. They're just screwed since we're not going to put any boots on the ground.

How's that promoting democracy going in Afghanistan? That was a quick and easy war, wasn't it? Oh, wait, that war has been going on for almost NINE years.

War is never quick, easy, or cheap.

 

[wuliheron]

Let's promote democracy by bombing the shit out of them (wuliheron said use cruise missiles and predator drones). That'll really endear us to them.

How about just enforcing a no-fly zone? Let's not worry about any pilots who might get shot down. They're just screwed since we're not going to put any boots on the ground.

How's that promoting democracy going in Afghanistan? That was a quick and easy war, wasn't it? Oh, wait, that war has been going on for almost NINE years.

War is never quick, easy, or cheap.

Promoting democracy and endearing people is just so much political rhetoric; propaganda used to justify anything to the stupid masses in both the US and Libya. In real estate they say three things matter: location, location, location. In the middle east it is OIL,OIL,OIL.

Gaddafi will either regain control over his people or be replaced in order to ensure the uninterrupted flow of cheap oil. He knows it, we know it, everybody knows this and the only real question left is whether he can regain control or is crazy enough to cling to power even when it is hopeless. In either case he knows the clock is ticking and the US will not tolerate this food riot much longer and risk the already fragile world economy going down the toilet. If necessary we'll give the peasants a little food and better living conditions, but the oil must flow.

 

[irishScott]

Let's promote democracy by bombing the shit out of them (wuliheron said use cruise missiles and predator drones). That'll really endear us to them.

How about just enforcing a no-fly zone? Let's not worry about any pilots who might get shot down. They're just screwed since we're not going to put any boots on the ground.

How's that promoting democracy going in Afghanistan? That was a quick and easy war, wasn't it? Oh, wait, that war has been going on for almost NINE years.

War is never quick, easy, or cheap.

All I was talking about was a no-fly zone, or possible air strikes. I never said anything about an Afghanistan or Iraq-style invasion.

And Afghanistan never really gave a shit about Democracy in the first place, and no real rebellion towards the Taliban was underway except for a little ineffective sliver in the North.

Here we have most of the country wanting and actively fighting for Democracy. I'd say supporting that is in our interests.

 

[bamacre]

Here we have most of the country wanting and actively fighting for Democracy. I'd say supporting that is in our interests.

Yup, and we can just borrow more money from China to pay for yet another war.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Here we have most of the country wanting and actively fighting for Democracy. I'd say supporting that is in our interests.

Yup, and we can just borrow more money from China to pay for yet another war.

Help the winning side and the population will end up turning on you.

Help the losing side and the winning side will rally the population against you.

 

[ElFenix]

Yup, and we can just borrow more money from China to pay for yet another war.

don't worry, their uprising is next :sneaky:

 

[irishScott]

Yup, and we can just borrow more money from China to pay for yet another war.

And where did I mention another war?

 

[bamacre]

And where did I mention another war?

In your post. Let me repeat it, "All I was talking about was a no-fly zone, or possible air strikes."

That's war.

 

[irishScott]

In your post. Let me repeat it, "All I was talking about was a no-fly zone, or possible air strikes."

That's war.

A relatively cheap one that wouldn't involve boots on the ground and would in no way resemble Iraq or Afghanistan.

 

[soulcougher73]

Wait, really? I'm glad somebody finally posted something about this... I had no idea what was going on. Also, the amount of information I got from this thread makes me feel like I was there.

LOL..Literally...at work.

 

[bamacre]

A relatively cheap one that wouldn't involve boots on the ground and would in no way resemble Iraq or Afghanistan.

How do you think Iraq began? What happens when our planes are fired upon in the no-fly zone? What happens when someone gets killed?

Unintended consequences can be a bitch.

 

[P4man]

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Or in this case, when you spend more on military than the rest of the world combined, every issue seems to require a military intervention. Heck, many of you even seem to think economic problems are best solved by buying more military toys.

Here is a novel idea though: let's listen to the people for a change?
Reading various news sources and interviews, it seems no one in Libya wants foreign military intervention, most protesters and city councils even seem to oppose no fly zones, although opinions are more divided.

The only thing they all agree on, is a simple air embargo to prevent Gaddafi from flying in more foreign mercenaries. Note that an embargo is not a no fly zone. Just prevent planes to enter libyan airspace.

 

[EagleKeeper]

In your post. Let me repeat it, "All I was talking about was a no-fly zone, or possible air strikes."

That's war.

A relatively cheap one that wouldn't involve boots on the ground and would in no way resemble Iraq or Afghanistan.

that is the way both Iraq and Afghanistan started - air war.

Then when the ari war did not succeed, the boots were sent in.

Air can weaken it; boots are needed to finish it.

 

[JEDIYoda]

don't worry, their uprising is next

Are you one of these idiots who believes the whole world is going to uprise?

You must really be pretty dense in your beliefs!

Uprisings only work when the military is behind the uprising or in support of the uprising!

Libya is a great example -- so far of what I am saying.
Did anybody expect Gadhafi to go quietly into the night just because the people staged an uprising?

Take Egypt.....the people so far have not won a damn thing!!
The military is in charge and the military will see to it that a person of their choosing -- with rigged elections gets to run Egypt.

Sort of like Iran with a defacto supposed leader with no power whatsoever...

So now people please tell me about the good that is coming from these uprisings?

 

[EagleKeeper]

<snip>
So now people p[lease tell me about the good that is coming from these uprisings?

The illusion of change.

They have thrown off the yolk of one dictator to be replaced by ....

 

[JEDIYoda]

The illusion of change.

They have thrown off the yolk of one dictator to be replaced by ....

You know my heart goes out to the people of these countries where true change is really needed. I am not talking about so called western style governments!

I am talking about all the people in Middle Eastern and African nations and possibly China.

We are fortunate to have been to be born and raised in so called civilized society!

But I am afraid that as Common Courtesy has said they have thrown off one dictator to be replaced by....

This has nothing at all to do with my being a Jew or my country Israel these are my personal feelings.

I wish all the best to these brave people who decided enough was enough....Peace!!

 

[ElFenix]

Are you one of these idiots who believes the whole world is going to uprise?

You must really be pretty dense in your beliefs!

i rarely post my actual opinions here. but feel free to go on the attack!

(PS - see the smiley :sneaky: )

 

[wuliheron]

In your post. Let me repeat it, "All I was talking about was a no-fly zone, or possible air strikes."

That's war.

It's a "police action", not a war. You kill a few people, contain the situation, and maybe help restore a little order. War is pretty much no-holds-barred-winner-takes-all. With those stakes its also much more expensive.

 

[bamacre]

It's a "police action", not a war. You kill a few people, contain the situation, and maybe help restore a little order. War is pretty much no-holds-barred-winner-takes-all. With those stakes its also much more expensive.

A police action?

Sign of the times, I suppose.

 

[OCGuy]

It's a "police action", not a war. You kill a few people, contain the situation, and maybe help restore a little order. War is pretty much no-holds-barred-winner-takes-all. With those stakes its also much more expensive.

So the USA hasnt had a "war" (by your definition, not the legal one) since WWII? Because we have imposed restrictions on ourselves in every conflict since.

If Obama has any brains, he will STFO of this.

 

[JEDIYoda]

i rarely post my actual opinions here. but feel free to go on the attack!

cool!! I overlooked the smiley!~!
Peace!!!

 

[P4man]

A police action?

Sign of the times, I suppose.

Sure, a police action. Police use cruise missiles and fighter/bombers within your borders all the time, dont they?

 

[zinfamous]

A police action?

Sign of the times, I suppose.

doesn't Vietnam remain, officially, a police action?

:hmm: