Libya

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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Sorry, its not my call. Nor do I even believe it is in the hands of the American people right now. That responsibility now rests with Obama who has not proven to share your sentiments.

Your responses are the most vague and devoid of any content I have seen in awhile. What isnt your call? I was asking about your opinion if we dont use our military another super power will. And all you can do is respond with this?

Are you saying if we dont use our military China will? And the problem with this is?
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
0
Sorry, its a Taoist trait to be vague at times.

China is just one of countless possibilities. Imagine several oil hungry wealthy countries moving into the middle east and trying to stake their claims. Inevitably it leads to them all expanding their own militaries to defend their new claims or expand into their weaker neighbor's territory. Then it can lead to people forming alliances and massive wars. Nor is this some wild guess as to what might happen; it is what has happened in the history of colonialism around the world.
 

P4man

Senior member
Aug 27, 2010
254
0
0
Sorry, its a Taoist trait to be vague at times.

China is just one of countless possibilities. Imagine several oil hungry wealthy countries moving into the middle east and trying to stake their claims. Inevitably it leads to them all expanding their own militaries to defend their new claims or expand into their weaker neighbor's territory. Then it can lead to people forming alliances and massive wars. Nor is this some wild guess as to what might happen; it is what has happened in the history of colonialism around the world.

Of course, you can also look at it the other way. If the US goes on a bombing spree in Libya, other Arab dictatorships might get the idea that they need better airdefences and buy some S-300s to deter and protect themselves against a domestic insurgency.. backed by US airpower.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
0
Uhh.....Jets started bombing civilians last week, and we haven't done anything about it. I would say Obama is taking the smart route so far.

Not our problem.


Obama could try to make a good will gesture towards the current widespread demands for democratic reforms by helping to take out Gaddafi. The question of whether or not this would be the wisest course of action is another matter altogether. It really depends on whether or not these people even really know what democracy is and are capable of establishing one without shooting themselves in the foot.

However, the long term issue is not whether the oil will flow, but whether oil prices will stabilize. Supertankers are not exactly bullet proof and political instability in the region is not good for the world economy.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
My guess, Kaddifi is crusin for a brusin from one entity or another in the very near future. And may simply see everyone of his palaces bombed to rubble to kinda give him a hint.

Your guess is always wrong why even guess?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Sorry, its a Taoist trait to be vague at times.

China is just one of countless possibilities. Imagine several oil hungry wealthy countries moving into the middle east and trying to stake their claims. Inevitably it leads to them all expanding their own militaries to defend their new claims or expand into their weaker neighbor's territory. Then it can lead to people forming alliances and massive wars. Nor is this some wild guess as to what might happen; it is what has happened in the history of colonialism around the world.

I thought you said superpowers? The closest country besides the U.S. to a super power is China. If an even poorer country wants to expend military resources on Libya. Let them.

And to your second part. If poor countries want to waste their resources defending themselves against other poor countries for Libya's oil reserves. Let them.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
0
Of course, you can also look at it the other way. If the US goes on a bombing spree in Libya, other Arab dictatorships might get the idea that they need better airdefences and buy some S-300s to deter and protect themselves against a domestic insurgency.. backed by US airpower.


Out with the old and in with the new. New regimes, new weapons, new political realities, new weapons. Weapons are the largest single manufactured export of the US and levels are almost as high as during the cold war. Business is already good, its the economy that sucks.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
0
I thought you said superpowers? The closest country besides the U.S. to a super power is China. If an even poorer country wants to expend military resources on Libya. Let them.

And to your second part. If poor countries want to waste their resources defending themselves against other poor countries for Libya's oil reserves. Let them.


Let's put this into perspective. Germany was a small landlocked country with a devastated economy before WWII. Japan was a small island nation utterly dependent upon imports and exports. What makes a superpower is not simply who happens to be on top at any given moment, but their manufacturing ability and technology. If given the opportunity to expand their economies and access to resources they will do so.
 
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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Let's put this into perspective. Germany was a small landlocked country with a devastated economy before WWII. Japan was a small island nation utterly dependent upon imports and exports. What makes a superpower is not simply who happens to be on top at any given moment, but their manufacturing ability and technology. If given the opportunity to expand their economies and access to resources they will do so.

Germany ramped up their industrial capacity after 1933 then proceeded to rape and pillage countries for their wealth after 1938. And Japan raped and pillaged poor countries in Manchuria, China, and Korea before running into a brick wall. I think the biggest thing we can take from your analogy is in the end neither country survived.

Are you claiming some non-super power will become a super power by expending resources occupying Libya if we dont? Have we become rich occupying Iraq? A country with more oil resources than Libya?
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
0
Germany ramped up their industrial capacity after 1933 then proceeded to rape and pillage countries for their wealth after 1938. And Japan raped and pillaged poor countries in Manchuria, China, and Korea before running into a brick wall. I think the biggest thing we can take from your analogy is in the end neither country survived.

I'd call 26 million dead and Europe and Russia in ruins more then a petty concern. You might as well say the only important thing that happened in the civil war was that the south lost. Who wins may be the only important thing in a game, but this isn't a game.

Are you claiming some non-super power will become a super power by expending resources occupying Libya if we dont? Have we become rich occupying Iraq? A country with more oil resources than Libya?

We have become rich by controlling the price and availability of oil along with many other items. Oil in particular though is what has allowed the world economy to rapidly expand. There are some 400+ items imported in the US today that are considered "vital to the national defense". Short term fluctuation in prices are tolerated, but long term ones are not.

Hence we have military bases in places like Saudi Arabia and now Iraq which is right next door to Iran. And we make billion dollar contributions in cash and weapons to whatever local dictator is willing to support the status quo. If the world fell to shit tomorrow and every country began fighting over whatever they could get their hands on the US would own the middle east. If the oil there ran out tomorrow we'd abandon them to their fate so fast they'd wonder if we were ever really there.
 
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OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,227
36
91
Wow this guy is making my head hurt.......

Thankfully he isn't in charge of anything.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
Germany ramped up their industrial capacity after 1933 then proceeded to rape and pillage countries for their wealth after 1938. And Japan raped and pillaged poor countries in Manchuria, China, and Korea before running into a brick wall. I think the biggest thing we can take from your analogy is in the end neither country survived.

Are you claiming some non-super power will become a super power by expending resources occupying Libya if we dont? Have we become rich occupying Iraq? A country with more oil resources than Libya?

To play devil's advocate, we haven't become rich in Iraq because we didn't go in with that intention (despite what the conspiracy theorists may think). We didn't rape and pillage, we precision targeted and occupied. If the US wanted to rape and pillage Iraq the war itself could be profitable, although the international ramifications would probably counter that.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
Hence we have military bases in places like Saudi Arabia and now Iraq which is right next door to Iran. And we make billion dollar contributions in cash and weapons to whatever local dictator is willing to support the status quo. If the world fell to shit tomorrow and every country began fighting over whatever they could get their hands on the US would own the middle east. If the oil there ran out tomorrow we'd abandon them to their fate so fast they'd wonder if we were ever really there.
This is absolutely correct.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
0
Maybe not, but they are considering asking us for air strikes.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/02/world/africa/02libya.html?ref=africa

Yeah, the homeboys don't want anyone thinking they're another puppet regime and can't hold the territory on their own. However, the US has already made it clear it would require 2 aircraft carriers to take down the air defense system. The UN might just find itself outclassed and too slow to do these boys any good, while the US can have another aircraft carrier there within a week. No doubt if they suddenly find their backs to the wall these boys will be welcoming any help they can get.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
Anyone have a clue what's going on here? Are there any websites with a good up to date map of supposed progress or lack of it by rebels, like a day by day representation of which areas they hold?
 

Aegeon

Golden Member
Nov 2, 2004
1,809
125
106
Anyone have a clue what's going on here? Are there any websites with a good up to date map of supposed progress or lack of it by rebels, like a day by day representation of which areas they hold?
Al Jazeera English has a recent map with key locations in their live blog.
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/live-blog-libya-march-5
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/sites/default/files/imagecache/FeaturedImagePost/images/libyamap.JPG

Right now the key events are that rebels are advancing in the east and apparently halfway between Sirte and Ras Lanuf after taking Ras Lanuf a bit earlier. The city of Az Zawiyah is currently basically surrounded by pro-Gaddafi forces and may have successfully repelled earlier attacks. The situation with regards to control of that city is probably key to assessing how the conflict in general is going in the near future.

The big picture is rebels currently control basically all the major cities besides Tripolli (and its immediate area) and Sirte (as long as Az Zawiya remains in rebel control.) The area around Sirte, Gaddafi's home town, is the other primary urban area of Gaddafi force controlled territory besides the Tripolli area. Rebels firmly control the territory on the eastern side of the country in general, while its a more mixed picture with rebels sometimes only controlling the urban areas in the west.
 

Harabec

Golden Member
Oct 15, 2005
1,371
1
81
Well, Qadaffi's forces are still fighting and killing anyone they can which I can't quite understand - I never know how someone in any military can agree to act against his own brothers and sisters.

Anyway, the rebels in Zawiya have fended off an attack and will probably win against the next one as well. Qadaffi probably forgot no one ever wins against guerilla warfare, even if he manages to kill another 50.

Personally, I'm all for nuking his palace from orbit. Lybia needs a new parking lot.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
Is there any consensus on whether Gadhafi is going to fall inevitably now or whether he can hold on unless international gets involved?
 

P4man

Senior member
Aug 27, 2010
254
0
0
I find it fascinating how these uprising are viewed so completely different from so many others. Essentially, rebels in Egypt or Libya trying to overthrow their unpopular and corrupt regimes isnt very different from other recent uprisings whether it is Sri Lanka, Chechnya or Iraq and Afghanistan, where fractions were, or still are, also fighting an unpopular and corrupt regime (and in some cases, on top of that, a foreign occupation). Its even more comparable to the Iranian revolution that overthrew the Shah.

For some reasons the rebels in Libya are assumed to be the prevailing popular movement and assumed to be fighting the just cause, where as similar groups in other countries fighting for similar causes are more typically called terrorists and bombed even more relentlessly, just by different (but often equally cruel and corrupt) regimes or by NATO.

Just think about it, if Gaddafi orders his tanks and planes to attack armed insurgents, apparently we think its a war crime and it may even warrant foreign military intervention; but how is it different from NATO bombing insurgents in Iraq, Taliban in Afghanistan or Israel bombing Hamas? What if Russia or China or Iran thinks insurgents in those countries are fighting for a just cause against criminal regimes, and decide they ought to bomb the presidential palaces of Karzai, Talabani or Netanyahu?

Dont get me wrong, I have no love for Gadaffi; just giving some of you some food for thought.
 

Aegeon

Golden Member
Nov 2, 2004
1,809
125
106
Just think about it, if Gaddafi orders his tanks and planes to attack armed insurgents, apparently we think its a war crime and it may even warrant foreign military intervention; but how is it different from NATO bombing insurgents in Iraq, Taliban in Afghanistan or Israel bombing Hamas? What if Russia or China or Iran thinks insurgents in those countries are fighting for a just cause against criminal regimes, and decide they ought to bomb the presidential palaces of Karzai, Talabani or Netanyahu?

Dont get me wrong, I have no love for Gadaffi; just giving some of you some food for thought.
Most of what has been labelled a war crime by Gadaffi is definitely NOT attacking armed insurgents but unarmed protesters. General shooting without any real effort to target those armed, or aerial bombings that make no effort to specifically target military targets are the other areas of particular note. (The details on the bombing are somewhat more disputed due to a lack to reliable info.)

Incidentally, the situation with Sri Lanka was really quite different in that you ultimately had what represented an ethnic minority on the island seek independence by trying to seize what was clearly a disproportionate portion of the island for their own new country given how large a population they actually represented. (I.E. there were plenty of Tamils who clearly planned on remaining in the southern part of Sri Lanka who had absolutely no intention of living in the hypothetical independent Tamil state.) Russia also certainly did get plenty of criticism for how they handled things in Chechnya. Politics (including Russia having a UN veto) prevented things from going further than they did.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
This is not the U.S.'s problem, but rather Libya's so the U.S. needs to keep the f*** out!

Why does anyone want the U.S. to intervene? All we know is that Israel could be pulling everyone into ths s***.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
This is not the U.S.'s problem, but rather Libya's so the U.S. needs to keep the f*** out!

Why does anyone want the U.S. to intervene? All we know is that Israel could be pulling everyone into ths s***.
It's not my problem if your car breaks down in the middle of nowhere on a cold night and you're freezing to death but chances are I'll stop and ask if you need a lift anyway because I'm a human being. Aren't you? There's no way you can read reports of protesters who represent a clear majority of the population getting shot up by police and be completely indifferent to it. Even if you claim to be unaffected I don't believe it. So now with that out of the way the question is not whether these people deserve help but whether the cost to it is too high (e.g. it neuters the popular support of the uprising, NATO in big ground war, etc.).
 
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