Libya

[P4man]

Most of what has been labelled a war crime by Gadaffi is definitely NOT attacking armed insurgents but unarmed protesters. General shooting without any real effort to target those armed, or aerial bombings that make no effort to specifically target military targets are the other areas of particular note. (The details on the bombing are somewhat more disputed due to a lack to reliable info.)

They are definitely not unarmed. I saw tv images of them manning RPGs, anti aircraft artillery and what not. Granted, perhaps the first days the protest it was mostly peaceful, but thats kind of hard to judge from here, as is the level of violence used against them initially and whether or not that was wholly disproportionate. At this point, they are clearly fighting though, this is not a peaceful protest but more a civil war and what the Gaddafi regime is doing doesnt seem very different from what all regimes over the world are doing when faced with armed resistance.

As for the bombings, look, I really dont like defending Gaddafi, but lets keep some perspective; what I heard there have been airstrikes on ammunition depots and military installations in the liberated east, and some pilots apparently (deliberately?) missed by miles. So far Ive not seen much evidence that Gaddafi's attempts to squash this rebellion is particularly bloody let alone genocidal compared to any other similar situation. I dont think he is shelling entire villages or clusterbombing highly populated area's. Unlike some "democraties" fighting resistance.

FWIW, the number of casualties being reported so far, sound considerably less than the number of casualties in the Egypt uprising, which was considered all together peaceful by most.

 

[Aegeon]

They are definitely not unarmed. I saw tv images of them manning RPGs, anti aircraft artillery and what not. Granted, perhaps the first days the protest it was mostly peaceful, but thats kind of hard to judge from here, as is the level of violence used against them initially and whether or not that was wholly disproportionate. At this point, they are clearly fighting though, this is not a peaceful protest but more a civil war and what the Gaddafi regime is doing doesnt seem very different from what all regimes over the world are doing when faced with armed resistance.

As for the bombings, look, I really dont like defending Gaddafi, but lets keep some perspective; what I heard there have been airstrikes on ammunition depots and military installations in the liberated east, and some pilots apparently (deliberately?) missed by miles. So far Ive not seen much evidence that Gaddafi's attempts to squash this rebellion is particularly bloody let alone genocidal compared to any other similar situation. I dont think he is shelling entire villages or clusterbombing highly populated area's. Unlike some "democraties" fighting resistance.

FWIW, the number of casualties being reported so far, sound considerably less than the number of casualties in the Egypt uprising, which was considered all together peaceful by most.

THOSE ARE CERTAINLY NOT THE PROTESTERS. (Those are the current insurgents and defecting military troops.)

There are still individuals attempting to protest in Tripoli who have been shot when trying to assemble in recent days. In fact according to widespread eyewitness reports, in some instances anyone outside in a general area at (not part of the Gaddafi forces) at wrong time gets shot. Furthermore, the general view is a revolt in response to the mass shootings of unarmed protesters is justified, which is what happened in the first few days in Libya.

Gaddafi is according to many reports engaging in rather indiscriminate shelling of the city of Az Zawiya. Libyan tanks also reportedly were quite indiscriminate when firing at buildings as they were attempting to take the rebel held city. (And its not like civilians really had the chance to flee the city before the attack began either.)

The number of serious casualties is VASTLY higher than the situation in Egypt. With tens of thousands of serious casualties and thousands rather clearly dead already at this point.

Edit: The Libyan Human Right League gave the figure of 6,000 killed by March 2nd.
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breaki...0306-323726/Libya-revolt-timeline--Chronology

The only recent situation vaguely resembling this sort of indiscriminate violence by a governmental force is the Russian Chechnya situation and a couple of other nasty regimes. (Yes the totals in Iraq an Afghanistan are higher, but that has allot to do with a much longer conflict and insurgents often deliberately targeting civilians, and general civil warfare and violence in the country over longer periods. The other truth is serious military fights between the two armed sides are really only getting going now in Libya. The other difference is much higher populations tend to contribute towards more people getting killed during the course of fighting.)

You don't appear to be on the same planet as reality here with your analysis. (Its true that verifying all the details of causality figures is tough given the restrictions on the press operating in the areas Gaddafi controls and the risk of what his forces might do to unauthorized press in Libya.)

 

[P4man]

Well, lets hope that 6000 figure is a gross exaggeration, the UN seems to put it between 1 and 2000, which unfortunately is still a lot, but not more than eg the number of Gazans that Israel killed in a week during operation Cast Lead or in the 2006 Lebanon conflict.

Regardless, dont get me wrong, the protesters most definitely do have my support and Im not here to defend Gaddafi. Im even on the fence on what kind of support is warranted, I just wish some people here that surprisingly for once side with a popular revolt against an oppressive regime could see the parallels between whats happening in Libya now, and what has happened in so many other places in the world before; except, the main perpetrator wasnt always some mad dictator, but more often than not, either us or our puppets, and rather than calling the revolutionaries 'protesters', we called them terrorists or insurgents and bombed and shelled them just the same.

Moreover, if we now say its okay to intervene militarily, then wouldnt that same principle (which one?) ought to apply to other popular uprisings even if supported by other nations? Thats quite a dangerous precedent to put it mildly. The next time there are again serious riots with people getting killed in Reykjavík, Paris or Athens, imagine the Russians or Chinese declare a no fly zone or bombing the Élysée. If that sounds too far fetched, think Iran. Or China.