Life after oil... interesting read..

[exdeath]

Oh and Michael Moore should supply us with a few more years worth.

 

[Vic]

I find it sadly amusing that we live on a planet that is literally bathed in energy and the chicken littles are fretting and worrying about running out of energy. For example, we are supposed to entering a global warming phase... do any of you realize just how much energy it takes to raise the global temperature by a single degree? There is no energy crisis on thie planet and never will be for as long as it exists. We do have an energy storage problem (oil is stored energy, captured from the sun millions of years ago), but no actual shortage of energy.

Personally, I think I should get into the oil business. Hell of a racket when your opponents drive up your prices for you. I like how the author of that article keeps citing how a "conservative" congressman supported his views. Duh, fool, you're making him millions with your chicken little rhetoric. Same way that oil companies are loathe to invest in new refineries or OPEC to increase production. Why would any supplier invest in increasing supply on their commodity, when doing so will only lower prices?

You people want something to be worried about, look to the next economic liquidity bubble, which is going to come a lot sooner than an real oil crisis. Evidence of this can be found in how oil futures prices right now are more speculative than grounded in any actual market reality. Such things occur due to an excess in liquidity, and always end in busts.

 

[meltdown75]

Originally posted by: Vic
I find it sadly amusing that we live on a planet that is literally bathed in energy and the chicken littles are fretting and worrying about running out of energy. For example, we are supposed to entering a global warming phase... do any of you realize just how much energy it takes to raise the global temperature by a single degree? There is no energy crisis on thie planet and never will be for as long as it exists. We do have an energy storage problem (oil is stored energy, captured from the sun millions of years ago), but no actual shortage of energy.

Personally, I think I should get into the oil business. Hell of a racket when your opponents drive up your prices for you. I like how the author of that article keeps citing how a "conservative" congressman supported his views. Duh, fool, you're making him millions with your chicken little rhetoric. Same way that oil companies are loathe to invest in new refineries or OPEC to increase production. Why would any supplier invest in increasing supply on their commodity, when doing so will only lower prices?

You people want something to be worried about, look to the next economic liquidity bubble, which is going to come a lot sooner than an real oil crisis. Evidence of this can be found in how oil futures prices right now are more speculative than grounded in any actual market reality. Such things occur due to an excess in liquidity, and always end in busts.

I have no doubt that you will save us all anyway. Go Vic.

 

[phantom309]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: Engineer
First plant fully functional according to their website.

Anything to Oil

Part #2

Sounds promising, but need new updates (and probably investment)

Wow, now thats some cool sh!t right there!


Ima buy one of these machines. Think about it... crap Im outta gas and have no money.

*grabs machine, takes it into the bathroom*


Now Ive got fuel!

Yes. You have 1/16 of a teaspoon of fuel.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: meltdown75

Originally posted by: Vic
I find it sadly amusing that we live on a planet that is literally bathed in energy and the chicken littles are fretting and worrying about running out of energy. For example, we are supposed to entering a global warming phase... do any of you realize just how much energy it takes to raise the global temperature by a single degree? There is no energy crisis on thie planet and never will be for as long as it exists. We do have an energy storage problem (oil is stored energy, captured from the sun millions of years ago), but no actual shortage of energy.

Personally, I think I should get into the oil business. Hell of a racket when your opponents drive up your prices for you. I like how the author of that article keeps citing how a "conservative" congressman supported his views. Duh, fool, you're making him millions with your chicken little rhetoric. Same way that oil companies are loathe to invest in new refineries or OPEC to increase production. Why would any supplier invest in increasing supply on their commodity, when doing so will only lower prices?

You people want something to be worried about, look to the next economic liquidity bubble, which is going to come a lot sooner than an real oil crisis. Evidence of this can be found in how oil futures prices right now are more speculative than grounded in any actual market reality. Such things occur due to an excess in liquidity, and always end in busts.

I have no doubt that you will save us all anyway. Go Vic.

Well, in all fairness he's right.

But it's a little more complicated than that. Obviously if we could harness even a fraction of the total energy that is hitting the Earth.. well, there would be no problem.

The real-world issue... is that we cannot currently do that. But perhaps all he's saying is that we need to move in those directions (wind and solar).

 

[chrisms]

How are Segways powered? I wonder if something like that could replace cars as far as city/town travelling goes. I have a feeling a lot of gasoline is used just for people to run errands.

 

[Kalbi]

Can't we just shoot the environmentalists and start (new) drilling in the US?

 

[meltdown75]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: meltdown75

Originally posted by: Vic
I find it sadly amusing that we live on a planet that is literally bathed in energy and the chicken littles are fretting and worrying about running out of energy. For example, we are supposed to entering a global warming phase... do any of you realize just how much energy it takes to raise the global temperature by a single degree? There is no energy crisis on thie planet and never will be for as long as it exists. We do have an energy storage problem (oil is stored energy, captured from the sun millions of years ago), but no actual shortage of energy.

Personally, I think I should get into the oil business. Hell of a racket when your opponents drive up your prices for you. I like how the author of that article keeps citing how a "conservative" congressman supported his views. Duh, fool, you're making him millions with your chicken little rhetoric. Same way that oil companies are loathe to invest in new refineries or OPEC to increase production. Why would any supplier invest in increasing supply on their commodity, when doing so will only lower prices?

You people want something to be worried about, look to the next economic liquidity bubble, which is going to come a lot sooner than an real oil crisis. Evidence of this can be found in how oil futures prices right now are more speculative than grounded in any actual market reality. Such things occur due to an excess in liquidity, and always end in busts.

I have no doubt that you will save us all anyway. Go Vic.

Well, in all fairness he's right.

But it's a little more complicated than that. Obviously if we could harness even a fraction of the total energy that is hitting the Earth.. well, there would be no problem.

The real-world issue... is that we cannot currently do that. But perhaps all he's saying is that we need to move in those directions (wind and solar).

I was only being half-sarcastic. I sincerely hope that people with the thinking power of some of the members here on ATOT have a chance to make a difference one day (or already are) and, well... be a "somebody". And I have no doubt that he (or she) is making a difference, somewhere out there - with the apparent brainiac powers and whatnot.

This morning on the radio I heard that wind turbines may be the future's TV antenna - that is, a fixture on every home. Perhaps this was in the news from another source, although I didn't look anywhere for it.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: chrisms
How are Segways powered? I wonder if something like that could replace cars as far as city/town travelling goes. I have a feeling a lot of gasoline is used just for people to run errands.

Electricity; batteries.

Yes, we could move transportation to an electricty based infrastructure.

We had better start building the several hundred nuclear power plants we would need [to completely take the place of motor fuels energy wise] soon.

 

[meltdown75]

Originally posted by: Kalbi
Can't we just shoot the environmentalists and start (new) drilling in the US?

There's no new oil in the US is there? I mean, if there was... ah, n/m.

According to the article linked in the OP, the "oil shales" which exist in the US pose a difficult extraction / refinery process compared to crude oil fields. AFAIK from reading the OP link anyway.

- Chicken Little

 

[Kalbi]

That article doesn't take into account that the US has the strongest military in the world, and if oil goes up to "$200 a barrel" we can just invade the middle east and jack it from them.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Eli
Well, in all fairness he's right.

But it's a little more complicated than that. Obviously if we could harness even a fraction of the total energy that is hitting the Earth.. well, there would be no problem.

The real-world issue... is that we cannot currently do that. But perhaps all he's saying is that we need to move in those directions (wind and solar).

Let's not forget gravity-derived power sources, like tidal and hydro. Like solar, those are essentially limitless. What would be great would be if we could just absorb heat. Or maybe capture the energy of a hurricane. Or static electricity from the atmosphere.

Energy is abundant. It's capturing and storing it that is the problem.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Kalbi
That article doesn't take into account that the US has the strongest military in the world, and if oil goes up to "$200 a barrel" we can just invade the middle east and jack it from them.

Actually, it does.

 

[phantom309]

Originally posted by: exdeath
There is an alternative to oil and it is 100% clean, natural, and renewable, and has similar energy as gasoline.

Alcohol.

Alcohol made from grain fertilized by petroleum-based fertilizers and pesticides, harvested by machines running on petroleum products, and distilled using heat, which has to come from somewhere. It takes more energy to make a gallon of alcohol than you can get out of it. Hydrogen is the same way. You're not creating energy, you're just converting it into a different form. And every time you do that, you lose some.

We don't have to expend much energy to produce a gallon of oil - oil was created by natural processes millions of years before we evolved. We don't have to supply the energy needed to make it. That's already been done by Mother Earth. All we have to do is get it out of the ground and refine it a bit. The rest, to us, is "free" energy - lots of it. Do you see the distinction?

We don't have an energy source that comes remotely close to fossil fuels right now. Biodiesel? We would need a square of land 1100 miles on a side planted entirely in soybeans to produce enough biodiesel just to run our 250 million cars. TDP? Great idea, but we don't produce nearly enough waste for that to meet our energy needs - and if we have to grow biomass specifically for TDP, we're back at the same negative energy equation we have with alcohol. Perhaps the free market will solve that problem as the situation gets worse. But the solutions being touted today aren't nearly as viable as they look.

 

[meltdown75]

Forgive my ignorance for asking this.

Ok, hydro power is generated from powerful flows of water, right? AFAIK... such as Niagra Falls, etc.

Why wouldn't we just build a series of a) manmade falls or the like or b) turbines that could run through the water, generating power by their motion rather than the motion of the water?

Or you could have a large structure resembling a ferriss (sp?) wheel, except the bottom of the wheel is submerged. When it spins, the turbines (I know nothing about this type of thing so again, forgive my naivety) are spun by the force of the water and power is generated.

Well, I guess all these sorts of plants require traditional fuels to operate anyway. But with the amount of water on our planet (2/3 of the surface IIRC), you would think we were perhaps destined to be more reliant on hydroelectric power.

 

[phantom309]

Originally posted by: LS20

Originally posted by: Vic

Why do you say "never"? Did you even read the article? The only setback right now is price and the usual NIMBY "environmental" concerns. Otherwise, this could likely go full-scale anytime, and cost will come down as the technology improves. TDP is the future. When oil finally runs low, we'll be making fuel from our garbage. There is NO other viable alternative, and so that's what we'll do as necessity forces our hand. I look forward to the day, and wish it would come sooner. For one thing, it will free us from foreign oil, and for another, it will be the greatest environmental boon ever (except to environmentalists, whose pessimism knows no bounds).

Why I say never? Why do you say no other viable alternative?
An average drillin platform will produce .... 100k barrels of crude oil per day .... for 3 decades. TDP requires 2 tons of garbage to produce ..... 5k barrels of oil. Granted, I don't deal with TDP, the math is obviously not working here

I'd have to see some very convincing proof that TDP can produce 5000 barrels of oil from two tons of garbage.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: meltdown75
Forgive my ignorance for asking this.

Ok, hydro power is generated from powerful flows of water, right? AFAIK... such as Niagra Falls, etc.

Why wouldn't we just build a series of a) manmade falls or the like or b) turbines that could run through the water, generating power by their motion rather than the motion of the water?

Or you could have a large structure resembling a ferriss (sp?) wheel, except the bottom of the wheel is submerged. When it spins, the turbines (I know nothing about this type of thing so again, forgive my naivety) are spun by the force of the water and power is generated.

Well, I guess all these sorts of plants require traditional fuels to operate anyway. But with the amount of water on our planet (2/3 of the surface IIRC), you would think we were perhaps destined to be more reliant on hydroelectric power.

It seems to me that what you described is how hydropower works (although I'm not too clear because of how you said it).
The motion of the water is the source of the power. It's a combination of solar and gravity. Solar power heats the oceans which evaporates water into clouds. Solar power generates wind (caused by the fact that the sun heats the surface of the earth unevenly) which moves the clouds over land to an up-elevation location. It rains, the water falls upon the earth and then moves down-elevation by gravity, where dams store the energy to be generated by turbines into electricity as needed.

Think of it this way. A rock lying the ground has no energy. But if you pick up the rock and hold it above the ground, then it now has potential (stored) energy due to its location. When you drop it, and it hits the ground, that potential energy is transformed into and released as kinetic energy released on impact. But... you put the energy into the rock when you picked it up, and that energy came from your body, which came from the food you ate, etc.
Same thing, if we lift the water only to drop it again, we gain nothing (actually lose). Which is why hydropower works by having the sun lift the water for us.

Sun and gravity are (for all practical human purposes) limitless sources of energy. Water running downhill is energy. The wind is energy. Waves crashing on the beach is energy. Dead plants and animals decomposing is energy (this is what oil actually is btw). Energy is everywhere.

 

[meltdown75]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: meltdown75
Forgive my ignorance for asking this.

Ok, hydro power is generated from powerful flows of water, right? AFAIK... such as Niagra Falls, etc.

Why wouldn't we just build a series of a) manmade falls or the like or b) turbines that could run through the water, generating power by their motion rather than the motion of the water?

Or you could have a large structure resembling a ferriss (sp?) wheel, except the bottom of the wheel is submerged. When it spins, the turbines (I know nothing about this type of thing so again, forgive my naivety) are spun by the force of the water and power is generated.

Well, I guess all these sorts of plants require traditional fuels to operate anyway. But with the amount of water on our planet (2/3 of the surface IIRC), you would think we were perhaps destined to be more reliant on hydroelectric power.

It seems to me that what you described is how hydropower works (although I'm not too clear because of how you said it).
The motion of the water is the source of the power. It's a combination of solar and gravity. Solar power heats the oceans which evaporates water into clouds. Solar power generates wind (caused by the fact that the sun heats the surface of the earth unevenly) which moves the clouds over land to an up-elevation location. It rains, the water falls upon the earth and then moves down-elevation by gravity, where dams store the energy to be generated by turbines into electricity as needed.

Think of it this way. A rock lying the ground has no energy. But if you pick up the rock and hold it above the ground, then it now has potential (stored) energy due to its location. When you drop it, and it hits the ground, that potential energy is transformed into and released as kinetic energy released on impact. But... you put the energy into the rock when you picked it up, and that energy came from your body, which came from the food you ate, etc.
Same thing, if we lift the water only to drop it again, we gain nothing (actually lose). Which is why hydropower works by having the sun lift the water for us.

Sun and gravity are (for all practical human purposes) limitless sources of energy. Water running downhill is energy. The wind is energy. Waves crashing on the beach is energy. Dead plants and animals decomposing is energy (this is what oil actually is btw). Energy is everywhere.

I see. How about the ferriss wheel idea? Smoke more crack? You know what, it's too vague to even critique. n/m

 

[feelingshorter]

*starts running to build endurance*

 

[LS20]

Originally posted by: VIAN
Think about it, without oil, we can't do anything. Say goodbye to the industrial products. We won't be able to make computers, cars, plastic. Nothing. If oil ends, we'll have a mix of medeivel times and the depression.

It will suck badly for our generation. And even if you have money, you will either be killed for it, or it will end quickly anyway.

Too many people work in the industy and unemployment will skyrocket. Things that some people need like drugs and smokes that people can't live without will be unavailable and many people will die.

It seems like Chaos to me. I could describe more implications, but chaos, in it's harshest meaning is what it would be like.

so, there'll be chaos when we are in short supply of water, plants, television sets, sex, etc... whats your point?

Originally posted by: Vic
I find it sadly amusing that we live on a planet that is literally bathed in energy and the chicken littles are fretting and worrying about running out of energy. For example, we are supposed to entering a global warming phase... do any of you realize just how much energy it takes to raise the global temperature by a single degree? There is no energy crisis on thie planet and never will be for as long as it exists. We do have an energy storage problem (oil is stored energy, captured from the sun millions of years ago), but no actual shortage of energy.

exactly!!! i believe in global warming and ozone pollution, but not that we'll see catastrophy arising from it in OUR lifetime. i mind about pollution and i like conserving energy when i can, because its good practice.. not because we're facing disaster.

Originally posted by: Kalbi
Can't we just shoot the environmentalists and start (new) drilling in the US?

we already drill where there are economic resources and reserves in the US... check around oklahoma and west texas . the other major sources are in the gulf of mexico where there are exciting offshore exploration and production going on. there arent many other economic/viable locations in the US... or, rather, none that is hampered by environmentalist opposition...

but what, mind you, do you have against environmentalists?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: meltdown75
I see. How about the ferriss wheel idea? Smoke more crack? You know what, it's too vague to even critique. n/m

If I follow you correctly, the ferris wheel idea would be a kind of perpetual motion machine, which is not possible. So yeah, smoke more crack

 

[feelingshorter]

ok ima learn to fly

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: meltdown75
I see. How about the ferriss wheel idea? Smoke more crack? You know what, it's too vague to even critique. n/m

If I follow you correctly, the ferris wheel idea would be a kind of perpetual motion machine, which is not possible. So yeah, smoke more crack

I think he might be talking about a water wheel, which is possible, and has been used, but does not produce much energy. It is much more effecient to dam the river then to just put a wheel in it. When we do that and put what amounts to a water wheel in it we call it a water turbine.
Here is a quick info about water wheels:
http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blwaterwheel.htm

(Edited to add the link)

 

[kitkat22]

The previous posts on the earth having a lot of energy is true. All I have to mention is the ocean and that would be enough. The problem lies in the conversion. Solar, wind and water are the best places to look. Unfortunately there aren't enough places to fully utilize them. Nuclear has it's plusses, but man the side-effects stink! There really are good alternatives to oil, but we haven't reached the point ($) to where we are actively investing in the tech. The bottom of the ocean has fields of energy capsules much like coal that exceed the energy from oil several times over. The problem is harvesting them. Bummer!
I don't foresee to much doom and gloom. I do, however, see a veritable boom for the bicycling industry! Anyway there's my two cents.

 

[meltdown75]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: meltdown75
I see. How about the ferriss wheel idea? Smoke more crack? You know what, it's too vague to even critique. n/m

If I follow you correctly, the ferris wheel idea would be a kind of perpetual motion machine, which is not possible. So yeah, smoke more crack

I think he might be talking about a water wheel, which is possible, and has been used, but does not produce much energy. It is much more effecient to dam the river then to just put a wheel in it. When we do that and put what amounts to a water wheel in it we call it a water turbine.
Here is a quick info about water wheels:
http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blwaterwheel.htm

(Edited to add the link)

Thanks, that link also linked to a hydroelectric turbine, which I believe is what I was attempting to refer to. Now if I could only find my damn crack pipe...