Lightning killed my computer.

[Ime]

So, I've never seen this before, but lightning killed my gaming computer over coax.

Looks like like the surge managed to hit my FIOS ONT and then make it across to the coax. The ONT, TV STB, and FIOS router all got hit. The only thing plugged into the FIOS router was the gaming PC, and it looks like the surge came across the Ethernet cable and zapped the main board. I tried swapping the power supply and no joy.

Everything I have is protected by surge protectors. The surge was powerful enough to trip the circuit breakers in the apartment. I lost 4 surge protectors to the bolt from the blue, but the devices connected to them are fine. Turns out I never bothered with coax surge protection, and now I get to buy/build a new gaming PC. I'm also currently waiting on a FIOS tech to come out and repair/replace all the damaged FIOS equipment.

Just thought I'd share this story, and send along the message to also make sure your coax is surge protected as well!

 

[Zodiark1593]

Does homeowners insurance cover lightning damage? Of course, even assuming it does, the deductible isn't anything to sneeze at.

 

[Ime]

Does homeowners insurance cover lightning damage? Of course, even assuming it does, the deductible isn't anything to sneeze at.

I custom built the gaming PC myself about 2 and a half years ago for around $1,000. My renter's insurance deductible just happens to be $1,000. So yeah I'm kinda screwed.

Funny thing is the PC, router, and monitors were all hooked up to an APC Smart-UPS 1400. Everything else is fine and the UPS itself is fine.

I had planned on waiting until next year for my next PC build/purchase. Turns out Mother Nature had other plans!

 

[sm625]

My computer is going through a 5 port isolated industrial ethernet switch. Mine and the old lady's both go thru that switch. The kids are on wifi.

You can also consider a usb to fiber ethernet adapter, which would connect to a router that has a fiber port. Many do nowadays, and for a good price considering the utility of fiber.

 

[VirtualLarry]

You can also consider a usb to fiber ethernet adapter, which would connect to a router that has a fiber port. Many do nowadays, and for a good price considering the utility of fiber.

O RLY?

I know that this is an "enthusiast" forum, but I think that the number of members here with a Cisco enterprise-grade router with fiber ports is going to be in the minority.

At least, I've never seen SOHO routers that you can buy at Walmart and BestBuy that have fiber ports.

 

[Puffnstuff]

I have to admit that I was initially confused when I first read this thread. The title says it happened over coax but the paragraph says it was over ethernet. Irrespective of that a surge protector doesn't always guarantee protection. I had a lightning strike outside my home several years ago and although everything was on surge protection it managed to to get my cable modem and router which were mounted in an interior closet. Comcast has since started installing inline lightning arrestors to ground the coax and keep the surge outside the home. You might ask the fios tech about that kind of protection when they service your equipment to prevent it from happening again.

 

[Ime]

I have to admit that I was initially confused when I first read this thread. The title says it happened over coax but the paragraph says it was over ethernet. Irrespective of that a surge protector doesn't always guarantee protection. I had a lightning strike outside my home several years ago and although everything was on surge protection it managed to to get my cable modem and router which were mounted in an interior closet. Comcast has since started installing inline lightning arrestors to ground the coax and keep the surge outside the home. You might ask the fios tech about that kind of protection when they service your equipment to prevent it from happening again.

Yeah I probably wasn't the most descriptive. Sorry about that.

Lightning hit outside our apartment's storage closet and from their came into the power line powering the FIOS ONT. That in turn sent the surge over the coax line which fried my router. That in turn sent the surge over ethernet and friend my PC. The surge also continued over our power lines, tripping circuit breakers and destroying surge protectors (but sparing the attached equipment).

Unless the lightning surge managed to bypass the APC smart-ups my PC is tied into without hurting it at all. Anything is possible I suppose! All bets are off when it comes to lightning.

Since I posted initially, the FIOS tech's been out to repair our stuff. Turns out the ONT and Router fried, but the TV STB survived.

 

[sm625]

O RLY?

I know that this is an "enthusiast" forum, but I think that the number of members here with a Cisco enterprise-grade router with fiber ports is going to be in the minority.

Datainterfaces makes fiber routers that sell for under $100. But really you dont even have to buy a fiber router. There are media converters like this one:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833704015

for $40. Combine that with a $30 usb to fiber adapter and you have a complete single PC fiber isolation solution for less than $100. Also, a pair of those media converters can be placed between the modem and the router to isolate your entire network.

 

[westom]

Unless the lightning surge managed to bypass the APC smart-ups my PC is tied into without hurting it at all. Anything is possible I suppose! All bets are off when it comes to lightning.

So a surge was incoming to the computer. Had no outgoing path. And caused computer damage? Unlikely.

A more likely scenario. First lets get something straight up front. APC probably gave the surge more and potentially destructive paths. APC does not claim to protect from destructive surges.

Incoming would be via the APC on AC mains into the computer. Outgoing would be via the network cable to the router. Damage is often on the ongoing path - that network cable.

Destructively through the router and into the ONT. Outgoing from the ONT into earth. Now we have a circuit as required by how electricity works. Everything that is damaged must have a separate incoming path and outgoing path to earth.

You did not have a properly earthed 'whole house' protector. So you had no protection. Learn from the experience. Including what every APC product do - protection only from surges that do no damage. Worse, APC products can even make surge damage easier. Don't take my word for it. Notice specification numbers that forget to claim actual protection. Robust protection inside that computer may have been compromised by that APC. A surge was all but invited by you to go hunting destructively inside. Learn about what actually does surge protection - from other companies with better integrity.

 

[Sabrewings]

So a surge was incoming to the computer. Had no outgoing path. And caused computer damage? Unlikely.

How did it have no outgoing path?

Surge is on the Ethernet line, grounds through the motherboard's internals to the motherboard's ground which is the electrical system ground. Easy path.

 

[westom]

How did it have no outgoing path?

If he said it had a good ground, then that ground was in a list of the surge's path. Then the router, ONT, etc were not damaged. Damage is often on the the outgoing path. What he assumed was an incoming path probably was the outgoing path to earth. First, why would a fiber optic be the incoming path?

Second, a connection from motherboard to earth ground may be less than 0.2 ohms resistance. That same connection may be 120 ohms impedance. A tiny 100 amp surge down a 120 ohm wire means something less than 12,000 volts (120 ohms times 100 amps). Is that motherboard ground a good connection to earth?

Third, numbers suggest other destructive paths exist. Especially if using many plug-in protectors - that did exactly what the manufacturer says it will do.

Bottom line. He all but invited a surge to go hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Apparently it found a superb connection to earth via computer and network. A most typical example of how damage happens, in part, because all telephone and cable wires have and are required to have superb protection installed for free.

Computer damage is probably due to what the homeowner failed to install. We know what was probably an outgoing and destructive path - from AC mains, through computer, through router, and through ONT. Not via the path you have suggested. ONT made a best outgoing connection to earth. AC mains is the most common incoming path because so many homeowners spend massively on plug-in protectors (that can make that damage easier). And do not spend less money on the superior and well proven 'whole house' solution.

That surge was all but invited to go hunting for earth inside. Listed were items that most often make a better and destructive connection to earth.

Westom, it's time for you to give it a rest. I think we all get the point that you dislike surge protectors and strongly prefer "whole house" protectors.

mfenn
General Hardware Moderator

 

[bononos]

Datainterfaces makes fiber routers that sell for under $100. But really you dont even have to buy a fiber router. There are media converters like this one:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833704015

for $40. Combine that with a $30 usb to fiber adapter and you have a complete single PC fiber isolation solution for less than $100. Also, a pair of those media converters can be placed between the modem and the router to isolate your entire network.

Do you know how much latency it would add compared to a normal connection?

 

[westom]

Westom, it's time for you to give it a rest. I think we all get the point that you dislike surge protectors and strongly prefer "whole house" protectors.

If posted is technically incorrect, then define that technical error with numbers and examples. I am clearly a fan of surge protectors - despite that assumptions. But not protectors that cost tens of times more money, that can make damage easier, are designed to scam consumers, and that do not claim to protect from the other and typically destructive surge.

Posted with numbers was proven science from well over 100 years. Why do others not know it? An overwhelming majority are educated only by advertising. Reality, defined with numbers, exposes a very popular scam. Why did you not criticize the scam? That scam must be correct because so many believe it? Or because wlld speculation justifies it?

IME did not earth a 'whole house' protector. That is obvious. ONT damage is typically incoming from AC wires far down the street, into a computer or printer (especially if connected his plug-in protector), out into a router, and destructively to earth via the ONT. I recently repaired a Canon networked printer that earthed a surge destructively through its ONT. Same damage due to no properly earthed 'whole house' protector. They mistakenly believed that surge was incoming from the ONT. How often have you determined which parts inside were damaged, replaced those parts, traced the surge path, and fixed everything? If you did not do this stuff, then what justifies anger? You should be critical of others who promoted his ineffective protector - that may have made damage easier.

Like or dislike is irrelevant. Clearly defined (even with numbers) is how and why damage happens. ONTs are often damaged when it makes a good (and destructive) connection from AC mains to earth. A homeowner all but invites that surge into his house. Defined is what must exist to avert future damage. That has not changed for over 100 years. Started with disrespect for myths that ignore this well proven science. Protection is always about why a surge is anywhere inside a house and it gets to earth. Protection has always meant that path must not be anywhere inside a building.

It you do not like well proven reality, then ignore it. But that does not change over 100 years of science and experience. He had damage because a surge was all but invited inside - was not earthed BEFORE entering the building.

Westom, the issue here is that you have a history of cajoling other members and derailing threads. I gave you a friendly warning that you had made your position known and that you should not proceed down your usual path. At that point, all you had to do was leave the thread. Instead what you did was perform a moderator callout, for which I have given you an infraction.

Do not post in this thread again.

mfenn
General Hardware Moderator

 

[Burpo]

True true.. In Florida, for an office, I had to drive 28ft of rod into the ground before it would blow a 10 amp fuse. Once you have a certain earth ground, stuff inside the building may survive a surge. Even then, you need something like this to protect your valuable equipment/PC's.

http://www.neweggbusiness.com/Produ...b6R7dQloem5cinFZ4laIf-sfueiJgogvtEaAkR08P8HAQ

 

[westom]

In Florida, for an office, I had to drive 28ft of rod into the ground before it would blow a 10 amp fuse.

A couple in FL saw something similar. Their one wall was repeatedly struck by lightning. They had lightning rods installed. Same wall was struck by lightning again, Why?

That wall contained plumbing that connected to deeper limestone. Lightning rods were only earthed by 8 foot ground rods. Lightning was only connecting to the best earthing electrode - plumbing. Damage stopped once lightning rods were connected to electrodes that were driven deeper into limestone.

Lightning rods work for the same reason protectors work. Its all about how a surge (lightning is only one example) connects to earth. For both lightning rods and surge protectors - they are only as effective as their earth ground.

The term low impedance applies. If a connection to earth has sharp bends, metallic conduit, or splices, then that connection is compromised. Low impedance even means a connection that is as short as possible (ie 'less than 10 feet').

Tripplite does not have any of this. Will not discuss earth ground. And does not claim to protect from another type of surge that typically does damage. Even the Tripplite needs protection only possible by properly earthing a 'whole house' protector.

At $44 per protected appliance, what kind of protection is that? A profit center.

 

[piasabird]

I have a generator on the Power pole in my back yard and it was struck once and managed to damage my switch. However, it did not damage the Modem or router or the PC. A generator on a pole is like a lightning magnet.

Another time I had one of my Mains at my house blow from a surge.

A lot depends on if the lightning strikes the building or just a nearby Power Line or pole. If it strikes the building it can take out a lot of networking equipment as well as PC's. We had a lightning strike at school and it caused all kinds of problems for a couple of weeks.

 

[westom]

A lot depends on if the lightning strikes the building or just a nearby Power Line or pole. If it strikes the building it can take out a lot of networking equipment as well as PC's.

A direct strike to AC wires far down the street is a surge incoming to every appliance in a house. Are all damaged? Of course not. To be damaged, that current must have both an incoming and an outgoing path to earth via that appliance. A surge incoming to a modem and outgoing to earth via its cable or phone wire means that surge need not hunt for earth destructively via a TV, furnace, or dishwasher.

Protection is always about a current to earth. Best protection means current connects to earth BEFORE entering a building - single point earth ground. Then current need not hunt for earth destructively via interior appliances and power strip protectors.

Best protection is provided by an earth ground that has both equipotential and conductivity. Everything done to upgrade earthing (ie the wire from breaker box to earth ground is shorter - does not go over the foundation) increases protection. Protectors are only connecting devices to what actually does all protection - to what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Damage is due to a human mistake in the 'art' of protection - earthing.

 

[skull]

A direct strike to AC wires far down the street is a surge incoming to every appliance in a house. Are all damaged? Of course not. To be damaged, that current must have both an incoming and an outgoing path to earth via that appliance. A surge incoming to a modem and outgoing to earth via its cable or phone wire means that surge need not hunt for earth destructively via a TV, furnace, or dishwasher.

Protection is always about a current to earth. Best protection means current connects to earth BEFORE entering a building - single point earth ground. Then current need not hunt for earth destructively via interior appliances and power strip protectors.

Best protection is provided by an earth ground that has both equipotential and conductivity. Everything done to upgrade earthing (ie the wire from breaker box to earth ground is shorter - does not go over the foundation) increases protection. Protectors are only connecting devices to what actually does all protection - to what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Damage is due to a human mistake in the 'art' of protection - earthing.

What do you recommend for a UPS? I know UPC brand are bad but never knew what to get. The closet I've had to my computer being destroyed was when voltage dropped to my house. Atleast I think thats what happened, all the lights went dim, computer froze, furnace blower started sounding funny. I ran down to make sure my panel wasn't burning up, then out to the truck to grab my volt meter but by the time I got back in everything was back to normal and my computer was fine.

 

[westom]

The closet I've had to my computer being destroyed was when voltage dropped to my house. Atleast I think thats what happened, all the lights went dim, computer froze, furnace blower started sounding funny.

Low voltage can be harmful to motorized appliances (ie furnace). So the AC utility must provide full voltage or cut voltage off (a blackout).

No electronics (properly designed) is damaged by a low voltage. An international design standard (long before PCs existed) defined that in the entire low voltage area of a chart. In all capital letters, it said, "No Damage Region".

Another engineer demonstrated same. All designs are tested to voltages down to zero - to confirm no damage results - and to learn how low is normal voltage. Tom MacIntyre posted:

We operate everything on an isolated variac, which means that I can control the voltage going into the unit I am working on from about 150 volts down to zero. This enables us to verify power regulation for over and under-voltage situations. ...
Switching supplies (more and more TV's, and all monitors I've ever seen), ... can and will regulate with very low voltages on the AC line in; the best I've seen was a TV which didn't die until I turned the variac down to 37 VAC! A brownout wouldn't have even affected the picture on that set.

All electronics will work just fine or just do a normal power off. You have zero reasons to suspect low voltage as harmful to electronics. And every reason to be concerned for motorized appliances.

If a low voltage is harmful, then the UPS must be on a refrigerator, dishwasher, and furnace. Numerous other anomalies exist. But the UPS is only for one (a blackout) that threatens unsaved data and does not threaten hardware.

Numerous anomalies require other solutions. Which one concerns you? Frequency variation, open neutral, harmonics, EMC/EMI, floating ground, power factor, RFI, microsecond current spike, reverse polarity, ground loop, etc? Each must be discussed separated. Many are already made irrelevant by what has long been required in every appliance.

Be suspect of any anomaly discussed by advertising or by disciples of advertising. For example, if anyone is recommending a Monster product to cure a threat, then suspect a scam.

You were warned not to post in this thread again, but you could not stay away. Enjoy your vacation.

mfenn
General Hardware Moderator

 

[bononos]

What do you recommend for a UPS? I know UPC brand are bad but never knew what to get. The closet I've had to my computer being destroyed was when voltage dropped to my house. Atleast I think thats what happened, all the lights went dim, computer froze, furnace blower started sounding funny. I ran down to make sure my panel wasn't burning up, then out to the truck to grab my volt meter but by the time I got back in everything was back to normal and my computer was fine.

APC, Cyberpower are decent brands. And I doubt you pc could be 'destroyed' when the 'voltage dropped'. Most modern pc power supplies can handle minor brownouts and if it gets too low, your pc will shut off and you'll end up with some corrupt files.

 

[Puffnstuff]

That is exactly why I run apc's with AVR so I can keep clean power to them at all times. If you run ssd's you should really consider having your pc on battery backup with AVR.

 

[bononos]

That is exactly why I run apc's with AVR so I can keep clean power to them at all times. If you run ssd's you should really consider having your pc on battery backup with AVR.

It sounds redundant since a ups also functions as a line conditioner.

 

[mfenn]

It sounds redundant since a ups also functions as a line conditioner.

AVR stands for Automatic Voltage Regulator (or Regulation), which is a feature of line-interactive and double-conversion UPS's.