Linux has a long way to go for the consumer market

[UsandThem]

Well, first off I want to say that Linux has come a long way since the last time I installed it (last version was Mandrake over two years ago). It still has a long way to go to becoming a worthwhile consumer system.

I was out shopping and I saw Suse Linux 7.3. I went home and read some reviews on it, and it sounded like Linux had finally grown up and was ready for the mainstream market. So I bought it and installed it. What a joke. I had to manually configure about about 40% of my items to include my mouse. To give some credit, when I installed the old version two years ago I had to configure about 60% of my periphals.

So I went and bought XP, and now this is what a OS is supposed to be like. Smooth, stable, and only a few things to configure. It looks a little cartoonish, but is a great system.

It is a shame because I really would like to see Linux really take off, but at the rate they are moving, I don't know if I will see it my lifetime.

I just wonder why since Lixux is an open source operating system, and there are a ton of people working on it, why can't they get the basic problems taken care of? I mean, support my standard Logitech USB mouse after a normal install. It can't be that hard:|

Suse Linux with support $39.00 and a lot of time getting it to work or XP upgrade for $99.00. I know what I will choose for the next two years.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

well you are right that it has a long way to go for the consumer market, however most people here arent "average consumers" so they/we will put up with difficulties in order to learn, and enjoy a truly superior OS.

its getting there, and already is in alot of ways, just not the ways you prefer

 

[n0cmonkey]

It wont take the desktop market. Who cares. OpenBSD finds my mouse as soon as I use a brain cell to tell it where it is. It also recognizes 100% of my hardware and as long as I dont compile a silly kernel its all setup by default. Debian did the same thing. Win2k on the other hand did not have drivers for atleast 1 (popular) device on my newest machine. OpenBSD, Linux, and BeOS all worked fine with it (on a different machine).

Windows does not come with:
A good command line
Good, quick, secure remote administration/use tools
EDIT: Poor hardware support (1 architecture?!)

OpenBSD/Linux does not have:
An easy, wipe your ass for you gui interface
EDIT:Good hardware support!

Mac OS X.1 does have:
EDITk hardware support, could be better.
Good, quick, secure remote administration/use tools (OpenSSH baby! )
A good command line
An easy hand holding gui interface that happens to be almost lickable

Screw the ignorant, Ill stick with a UNIX-compatible system

 

[BlackOmen]

>>It is a shame because I really would like to see Linux really take off, but at the rate they are moving, I don't know if I will see it my lifetime.

It is a shame because I really would like to see Windows really take off (as a server OS), but at the rate they are moving, I don't know if I will see it my lifetime.

>>I just wonder why since Lixux is an open source operating system, and there are a ton of people working on it, why can't they get the basic problems taken care of?

I just wonder why since Windows is a closed source operating system, and there are a ton of people working on it, why can't they get the basic problems taken care of (such as some kind of security)?

Meanwhile, a simple '/sbin/modprobe mousedev' and 'xf86config' would get you rolling with your mouse, not brain surgery here folks.

 

[Chatterjee]

what kind of crazy mouse are you using? I've never had problems with my mouse

-S

 

[Nothinman]

Wow, it's been a week already :Q

and it sounded like Linux had finally grown up and was ready for the mainstream market. So I bought it and installed it. What a joke. I had to manually configure about about 40% of my items to include my mouse.

Maybe it's you who hasn't grown up. Having to configure some drivers isn't exactly a hard thing.

It is a shame because I really would like to see Linux really take off, but at the rate they are moving, I don't know if I will see it my lifetime

It's a shame because I would really like to see some users really learn something, but at the rate they're moving, I don't know if I'll see it in my lifetime.

I just wonder why since Lixux is an open source operating system, and there are a ton of people working on it, why can't they get the basic problems taken care of? I mean, support my standard Logitech USB mouse after a normal install. It can't be that hard

If you've never written a USB device driver, you have no right to claim "it can't be that hard".

The basic problems are taken care of, the reason the handholding isn't as good as it could be is because the majority of the users don't give a sh!t and would rather configure it themselves anyway. Linux is an OS by geeks for geeks, if you don't have time to RTFM install Windows and be happy, because most of us in the Linux community would rather not support your lazy ass.

People seem to forget Linux wasn't created to take over Windows' reign on the desktop, it was created for fun. Some people really like coding different parts of an OS. Now you're going to complain because those people working for free won't autodetect your mouse? C'mon.

Sure I would love to see Linux take a chunk out of MS' marketshare, but it's far from a high priority.

 

[EmperorRob]

Linux is not really a consumer product b/c it's license is not sold. There is no standard for Linux as there is Windows and most hardware that you'll have problems with are built for Windows such as winmodems.

My default install of Red Hat 7.2 was setup perfectly and even configured my burner on its own. Win2k on the other hand required new drivers for my motherboard and a service pack before all my hardware would work.

 

[Nothinman]

There is no standard for Linux as there is Windows

The LSB (Linux Standards Base) would probably disagree with you.

and most hardware that you'll have problems with are built for Windows such as winmodems.

Well if you buy hardware with the letters "Win" prepended on it's name, you're asking for it.

 

[UsandThem]

<< Maybe it's you who hasn't grown up. Having to configure some drivers isn't exactly a hard thing. >>



Ouch, a little sensitive here. I'm not comparing d!ck sizes here. I did configure the drivers, I am just pointing out that some things are more complicated than need be. I got the whole thing working, however it should be a little less painless. Someone without a ton of patience would just uninstall it and be done with it. I am thinking that Linux and its various distribitors would like more people to use their products. I don't see why any company would not want people to switch to their products. They would go out of business quickly now wouldn't they?



<< if you don't have time to RTFM install Windows and be happy, because most of us in the Linux community would rather not support your lazy ass. >>



I did RTFM (now that is a die-hard Linux user trademark quote there if there was ever one) and I did go to their website and I did go all over the net and download the drivers.

I am just pointing out my experience with the product.



<< It is a shame because I really would like to see Windows really take off (as a server OS), but at the rate they are moving, I don't know if I will see it my lifetime. >>



True, very true

 

[Halogen]

<< what kind of crazy mouse are you using? I've never had problems with my mouse >>


i actually keep a running log of system problems i have to compare with my buddy in Texas
for the month of November, Windows told me that i didn't have a mouse a total of 16 times

 

[Chatterjee]

I'm serious. Windows sometimes can't even remember to find your mouse if you don't plug it in before you start the machine. Notice the key word "sometimes".

I love the fact that Linux can detect and install all sorts of stuff out of the box. It's mind-bogglingly impressive what a volunteer community can do sometimes

-S

 

[Halogen]

Windows is a closed system, it has the same makers over and over again and everything is from the same decent which causes mental retardation. nuff said

 

[Damascus]

Redhat Linux detected my Logitech USB mouse... perhaps the problem lies in
SuSe?

 

[thornc]

Well considering that over here in europe, the EU comission is under stydies to change their OS election
to Open Source OSes which one do you think they'll end up using???

In germany for instance, SuSe has an enormous user base more than you can imagine. In Finland at least
one city is changing to Linux.

In Brazil, thanks to connectiva linux, the governement is thinking in switching a large machine base to linux.
Not to mention China with Red Flag...

Of course, we are all wrong and Microsoft is right!!
And please, don't forget you have to pay $99 to use XP legally! I don't have to nothing to use Linux!!!

Altough I do by the CDs to support the companies from time to time!!

 

[Nothinman]

Ouch, a little sensitive here. I'm not comparing d!ck sizes here

I know, I'm just tired of people whining about these things. Linux isn't designed to be a end-luser OS. Some companies like Mandrake and SuSe think they can make it work that way and that's fine, more power to them, but if you have problems with their setup talk to them, not us. If you want help, most of us will be more than happy to help you, but if you're just going to whine please dont'.

Someone without a ton of patience would just uninstall it and be done with it.

Good, because they also won't read any documention on anything else and I'm sure most Linux users don't want to hold their hand everytime they won't RTFM.

I am thinking that Linux and its various distribitors would like more people to use their products. I don't see why any company would not want people to switch to their products. They would go out of business quickly now wouldn't they?

I'm sure they would, too. But how are they supposed to improve the product without your feedback?

I'm serious. Windows sometimes can't even remember to find your mouse if you don't plug it in before you start the machine. Notice the key word "sometimes".

Well considering the fact that PS/2 ports aren't meant to be hot-pugged that's not a big deal. Also hot-pugging them can damage the port or the device.

 

[n0cmonkey]

<< Some companies like Mandrake and SuSe think they can make it work that way and that's fine, more power to them... >>



SuSE seems to target professionals more than lusers. They also make their money through consulting and things like that. But Mandrake is making some good headway to get the unwashed masses to be more accpeting of Linux (games distro they just started should be a big help).

 

[Elledan]

Look at it from the other side: Linux is doing a terrific job in everything but desktop PC's. From mainframes to servers to PDA's to embedded systems, Linux is everywhere and because it's so customizable, it can actually be used for everything.
Windows is hardly used anywhere aside from desktop PC's.

However, this high degree of customizability comes with a price: complexity. For someone who knows nothing about Linux and uses it for the first time and is forced to customize and configure his own system, it's more than confusing.

If Linux wants to succeed in the desktop market, one or more distros must be created, which will use one standard GUI and a lot of graphical tools. The GUI will not run as a seperate process, but will be implemented closer to (or in) the kernel, which would speed things up.
Bottomline with these distros is that every basic functions are possible from within the GUI itself.

What does the above remind you of? Indeed, MacOS, and with that all of its clones, including Windows.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Things I did when I installed Win2k:

Spent ~45min on a decently fast machine waiting for stuff to load.
Installed nic driver off of a FLOPPY :/
Installed Video Drivers
Changed video settings (1024x768 24bit color)
Install VIA 4in1's
Download critical updates
Download critical updates #2
Download sp2 (if it loaded I would continue, if not I would start over)
Install VIA 4in1's (Atleast IDE driver, if I didnt I would get a blue screen, and later I got a blue screen no matter what with sp2)
Change the hard drives to UDMA 100 (if I remembered)
Download critical updates #3
Begin installing software

*after a while I ended up getting nothing but blue screens from sp2. I installed about 10 different times trying to fix the problem, including changing the order in which I did things. No help, ended up going without sp2 in the end before dropping win2k altogether.

Total time: 2 hours.

OpenBSD installation:

Spent ~20 min waiting for stuff to load
Stop services I did not need
Grab XF86Config file from backups
Load blackbox
Grab bb conf files off of backups
startx
cvs update src to -stable and ports
Look for software and apply the new patches I got from updating to -stable

Total time: 1 hour.


Total times do not include loading extra software.

 

[UnixFreak]

<< Suse Linux with support $39.00 and a lot of time getting it to work or XP upgrade for $99.00. I know what I will choose for the next two years. >>



Not something I would brag about, personally.

The bottom line is, a little research, read a few docs, and you could have one hell of an operating system for $39. People just jump into linux thinking it will set itself up, like Windows does (most of the time) and when it doesnt, they are crying. What they dont realize is, they have the same problems, or more, in windows, and have become jaded to it.

The trade off is, its harder to learn (not much harder, I might add, Hardware in *nix systems hasnt been a problem with me for a couple years now) but its so much better. If you want something thats easy to use, and slower, less stable, as well as a security risk, go for it. Dont think any of us *nix users will care, really, when you start flaming, you only start stupid religous wars, and most of the time, make yourself look like a fool. (especially to those using a Logitech USB mouse in Suse, )

 

[karna]

When I installed SuSE, there were no mouse problems.

SuSE is a very easy OS to install, even as easy as any windows version.

As with windows, there are always one or two devices that need drivers or would be well off
if you installed the latest drivers.

and $29 was a good price.

 

[Sunner]

Seems to me like most Windows users can't handle Windows either.

Out of every 1 person who answers Windows questions, there are probabaly 20 asking them, which makes me think the whole "Windows is easy" thing is overrated.

 

[Nothinman]

The GUI will not run as a seperate process, but will be implemented closer to (or in) the kernel, which would speed things up.

This will never happen. X is too big and complicated to go in the kernel, and noone is implementing a new/smaller windowing system because X works. Sure it would be a little faster, but it'll cause so many other problems it's not worth it.

 

[n0cmonkey]

<< The GUI will not run as a seperate process, but will be implemented closer to (or in) the kernel, which would speed things up.

This will never happen. X is too big and complicated to go in the kernel, and noone is implementing a new/smaller windowing system because X works. Sure it would be a little faster, but it'll cause so many other problems it's not worth it. >>

Berlin

 

[Nothinman]

Oh yea, forgot about Berlin. Looked at it a while ago when it was mentioned on Slashdot and it looked cool, but it's far from complete.

 

[n0cmonkey]

<< Oh yea, forgot about Berlin. Looked at it a while ago when it was mentioned on Slashdot and it looked cool, but it's far from complete. >>



If Open Source development was funded by a large corporation, then they throw in a Linux kernel and a bunch of utilities to do all the work for you they could possibly make a quick, easy Linux distribution. Debian would possibly be the best to base it on (much like Corel has done).