Linux SUCKS and should never be used by human beings.

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rmrf

Platinum Member
May 14, 2003
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well mr. "i got an A in calc 3", my grandma runs ubuntu. my parents also run ubuntu, and i do have to say, they have a lot less questions for me since i switched them to linux, than they did on windows.

take a chill pill, read a little bit, and go from there. windows is not as easy as you think, you've just grown up using it. try teaching it to an adult that has never used it before, they don't know what they are doing.

good luck with your windows, i hope you have a happy, virus filled life together.
 

Quinton McLeod

Senior member
Jan 17, 2006
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I have to admit. In Linux, you live in a completely different world from Windows. The Same with OS 10. You're unaffected by majority of the viruses out there.

Now, I'm not trying to debate whether popularity has anything to do with it, but I can say that when you're in a virus free world, you compute with less worries on your mind. You're not afraid to browse the Internet and click on questionable links. You're not afraid to browse a porn site or two. Windows is a bit different. When on Windows, you have to watch what email you read. You have to watch what programs you run. You have to be careful of what websites you visit and what links you click on. You have to watch out for those active x enabled porn sites (not a problem in Firefox). You also have to be careful for odd exploits enabled through just clicking of stuff in general; whether on accident or on purpose.

The last thing a user should be, when using his computer, is paranoid. You're not paranoid when you use your microwave. You're not paranoid when you watch your television. So, why be paranoid when using your PC?
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
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Originally posted by: nweaver
yes, configuring X by hand is a pain...but it's a hell of a lot better then the box bluescreening and then rebooting quicker then you can figure out what happened...over and over.


X gives some fairly decent errors, and you can realize what happened an fix it pretty easily. Same can't be said of windows.

BTW, CNR/Linspire are (imho) craptastic alternatives to apt/synaptic. The only difference is that (and this can change with univere/mutliverse repos) there are some propriatary codecs, protocols, and apps in there that don't follow Debian's guidelines (flash, etc)

Here I will crash linux, I think it is just X but I'm not sure now tell me where to find this "fairly decent errors"
 

Quinton McLeod

Senior member
Jan 17, 2006
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Usually you can check the xorg.log files.

I see what the other guy is saying. The decent errors are a little more descriptive than what you'd see in Windows. Usually, the errors tell you what has happened and how to fix it. If you check the xorg.log files, it will tell you, for example, "DRI has failed! Please check that you have the correct driver installed and try again. If that fails, then perhaps you need to reconfigure your kernel modules."

As you can see, it actually gives you suggestions on how to fix the problem instead of just saying there's a problem.
 

nweaver

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2001
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also ~/.xsessionerrors (or something like that) give specifics.

In general, Linux is (again, imho) EASIER to troubleshoot then windows. Having a problem with a webserver, tail -f /var/log/apache/error.log and click that link again....where does IIS even log errors? (I was looking the other day and couldn't find it)

dmesg and lspci, lsmod are much more informative then Device Manager (Great, I have an "unknown" device, with no clue what it is...)
 

Quinton McLeod

Senior member
Jan 17, 2006
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Originally posted by: nweaver
also ~/.xsessionerrors (or something like that) give specifics.

In general, Linux is (again, imho) EASIER to troubleshoot then windows. Having a problem with a webserver, tail -f /var/log/apache/error.log and click that link again....where does IIS even log errors? (I was looking the other day and couldn't find it)

dmesg and lspci, lsmod are much more informative then Device Manager (Great, I have an "unknown" device, with no clue what it is...)

Good points
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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When you crash X nine times out of ten it's driver problems.

It's similar to what happens now in Vista with their new user-mode drivers were the screen blanks out and resets the card. The drivers f-up, X crashes, your set to console (which uses a different set of drivers that reset the display more or less), gdm gets restarted by init and then you log in again.

For X, at least, the video drivers are all user-land with a DRM (direct render manager) driver in the kernel to allow hardware access. Unfortunately this doesn't always happen and the drivers are bad enough they put the video card into a state were it can only be recovered by powering off the machine.

(of course it would be nice to not have these problems in the first place)

Now if your using propriatory Nvidia drivers, it's a bit different. More kernel-land stuff going on there, I beleive. Nobody realy knows how they work since examining them is not allowed by Nvidia and would probably make life hard for somebody contributing code to X.org in the future due to legal issues. But with Nvidia essentially your running Nvidia's own X server. They use a lot of X.org code and peices, to be sure, but essentially it's not the same X server your system shipped with. With those things nobody realy can help you to much except for Nvidia.


For xorg.conf.. it's life is coming torwards a end. Linux has gotten very good at hotplugging stuff and detecting hardware.

For example.. if you install Debian or Ubuntu on a machine the vast majority of the hardware will be detected, configured, and drivers loaded automaticly. Each time you reboot the whole proccess of hardware detection and configuration happens again. /dev is configured automaticly nowadays also. (back in 2.4 days you had he choice of using devfs to try to autoconfigure (it would load up drivers automaticly if you tried to access the paticular /dev/ file... even if you didn't have that hardware) or manually making /dev files. (most were made by default, but not aways).

The major excepts to this is hardware that isn't supported by your kernel (which you would have to obtain drivers seperately), volume/disk entries into /etc/fstab, bootloader configuration, or anything to do with X.

So if you install Debian on machine A and then pulled the drive out of it and plugged it into machine B.. it will 'just work'. Everything is detected and autoconfigured. Worst case is that you have to boot up knoppix or the installation cdrom and manually edit /etc/fstab to the correct layout then modify /boot/grub/menu.lst to give the correct root partition.


However with X it doesn't work that way. It can't use any of Linux's hotplug features for things like mice, keyboards, video cards, or monitors.

The closest you get it to work for mice is by configuring X manually to point at /dev/input/mice. The Linux kernel then takes any mice you have, uses emulation to make them all appear as 'ExplorerPS/2' mice, and outputs that to /dev/input/mice. This obviously doesn't work well if you have many button'd mouse, wacom tablets, touch screens, or touch pads, that you want to use special features for (such as pressure sensitivity, or change of resolution).

So keep in mind that Linux kernel is perfectly capable of configuring that on the fly, but X isn't.

Soo....

Right now the latest release of X.org is 7.2. With 7.3 it's goal is to finally get hotplug capabilities and reduce the dependance on xorg.conf (were you don't need it if everything is configured correctly for your user).

So the goal is if you plug a mouse into X... Linux will detect it and set it up, notifying userspace of the changes through udev/dbus. X will be listening on dbus, detect it and probably get it automaticly. At the same time applets on your desktop (or whatever your Desktop Environment chooses to use or you have configured) will probably have a pop up telling you that a mouse has been plugged in. If the hardware is supported well enough then there may be a user-land program to configure it further and such.


So the same thing will happen, hopefully, with monitors also. Plug in a LCD monitor or projector and it will be detected by X's drivers. It will then pull the EDID information from the monitor cable itself and then configure the correct resolutions and such. It will then turn it on telling everybody who wants to listen on dbus that all of a sudden you have lots more desktop space.

If your Windows manager, then, is smart enough it will expand to fill the new space and you can move things around accordingly.

Then when you turn off the monitor and detatch it then the oppisite should happen and if your Window manager is smart enough it will then shove all your windows over to the remaining monitor so you odn't have to fish around in the dark for it.

All of this should happen without xorg.conf being used at all. So this sort of thing is the goal for X.org 7.3. Of course you'll need proper driver support for all this to happen correctly (so don't hold your breath you propriatory ATI driver users, you) which is probably just going to be Intel hardware for the time being.
(it won't work for video card hotplugging, but since nobody realy does that much anyways it's not a big deal at the current time)



Currently if you look at any presentation by Linux users you will always see them f-ing around with the projector forever and often never realy figuring out how to get it to work correctly.. That sort of thing does not inspire confidence in LoTD.

Same thing if you want to use your wacom pad or setup your trackpad with special features your going to be editing text files and restarting X and logging in and out and all sorts of crap. This doesn't look good either.

It's only a little bit better then having to reboot your entire machine each time you want to make a change.
 

Aluvus

Platinum Member
Apr 27, 2006
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Originally posted by: Quinton McLeod
When on Windows, you have to watch what email you read.

Only an issue for Outlook, and primarily an issue if the preview pane is turned on. My email client is set to render all email as plain text unless explicitly told otherwise.

You have to watch what programs you run.

True of any computing system.

You have to be careful of what websites you visit and what links you click on. You have to watch out for those active x enabled porn sites (not a problem in Firefox). You also have to be careful for odd exploits enabled through just clicking of stuff in general; whether on accident or on purpose.

I use Opera, and have few such concerns. If I did the Right Thing and logged in with a non-administrator account all the time, I would have almost no such concerns.

The last thing a user should be, when using his computer, is paranoid. You're not paranoid when you use your microwave. You're not paranoid when you watch your television. So, why be paranoid when using your PC?

I'm not paranoid when I drive my car, but I still pay attention to make sure I don't hit anything. When you use your microwave, do you make sure not to put anything unsafe in it?
 

Quinton McLeod

Senior member
Jan 17, 2006
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Originally posted by: Aluvus
Originally posted by: Quinton McLeod
When on Windows, you have to watch what email you read.

Only an issue for Outlook, and primarily an issue if the preview pane is turned on. My email client is set to render all email as plain text unless explicitly told otherwise.

You have to watch what programs you run.

True of any computing system.

You have to be careful of what websites you visit and what links you click on. You have to watch out for those active x enabled porn sites (not a problem in Firefox). You also have to be careful for odd exploits enabled through just clicking of stuff in general; whether on accident or on purpose.

I use Opera, and have few such concerns. If I did the Right Thing and logged in with a non-administrator account all the time, I would have almost no such concerns.

The last thing a user should be, when using his computer, is paranoid. You're not paranoid when you use your microwave. You're not paranoid when you watch your television. So, why be paranoid when using your PC?

I'm not paranoid when I drive my car, but I still pay attention to make sure I don't hit anything. When you use your microwave, do you make sure not to put anything unsafe in it?

You're missing the point.
Not everyone who runs Windows knows to do what you just listed. They are already told to be paranoid about their PCs. They need an anti-virus and antispyware programs. They need a firewall. They also have to be careful of what they download and etc.

Linux isn't plague by that. Programs aren't executable by default. If a virus does let loose, it will only effect the home folder. Also, there are so many distros out there for Linux that viruses are just plain incompatible.

Running Windows XP in user mode is out of the question. Majority of the programs out there require Admin rights.
 

Doom Machine

Senior member
Oct 23, 2005
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i know some like it, some dont, however it seems since vista's release that many linux users seem to want to force thier opinions despite whats best for average joe.

not sure why anyone would argue linux beiung easy, its definitly easier and nicer than it used to be, but no vista imo. however just the number of distro's alone is enough to keep people away...who wants to learn?? most computer users dont care to learn crap like that, only enthusiasts do and only enthusiasts who bother with linux or those who had someone set it all up for them just right are the only ones who like it, not all but ya know

fact is its not easy..anyone tried gaming with cedega on there, i recently tried and i said F**k it, that was the most b.s crap i ever saw.
downloading 6 cd's of data was b.s, reading for hours online about the different distro's, asking for advice on which one someone like me would like....b.s again. reading more to learn some basic in's and out's of working with linux...more b.s and it is so simply because one has to take the time to do all that and most average computer users dont care.....they just dont
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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not sure why anyone would argue linux beiung easy, its definitly easier and nicer than it used to be, but no vista imo.

Because what's easy is personal opinion. Personally, I find Linux many orders of magnitude easier to use than Windows, yes the learning curve up front was steeper but once you get the hang of it everything just falls into place and it all makes sense and then Windows seems horribly convoluted and overly complicated for no reason.

however just the number of distro's alone is enough to keep people away...

Just like the sheer number of cars available scares people into taking the bus, right?

fact is its not easy..anyone tried gaming with cedega on there, i recently tried and i said F**k it, that was the most b.s crap i ever saw.

So you tried to run Windows programs on Linux and ran into problems? Big surprise there. It's even more of a PITA to run Linux programs on Windows. CoLinux, cygwin, SFU, etc they all suck a lot worse than WINE/Cedega.

downloading 6 cd's of data was b.s

The last install I did only required a ~130M ISO.
 

Quinton McLeod

Senior member
Jan 17, 2006
375
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
not sure why anyone would argue linux beiung easy, its definitly easier and nicer than it used to be, but no vista imo.

Because what's easy is personal opinion. Personally, I find Linux many orders of magnitude easier to use than Windows, yes the learning curve up front was steeper but once you get the hang of it everything just falls into place and it all makes sense and then Windows seems horribly convoluted and overly complicated for no reason.

however just the number of distro's alone is enough to keep people away...

Just like the sheer number of cars available scares people into taking the bus, right?

fact is its not easy..anyone tried gaming with cedega on there, i recently tried and i said F**k it, that was the most b.s crap i ever saw.

So you tried to run Windows programs on Linux and ran into problems? Big surprise there. It's even more of a PITA to run Linux programs on Windows. CoLinux, cygwin, SFU, etc they all suck a lot worse than WINE/Cedega.

downloading 6 cd's of data was b.s

The last install I did only required a ~130M ISO.

I love you.
 

Karot

Member
Jan 15, 2007
95
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Originally posted by: Markbnj
If Linux sucked, the chances of the anandtech forums running on linux are huge.
You wouldnt even be posting if Linux sucked

Anandtech forums run on ASP.Net (FuseTalk Enterprise), which is a Windows server-side page generation technology.

The authoritative servers for DNS routing run Unix and unix-like operating systems i.e. linux. You wouldn't be able to query domains. Linux is also used by ISPs, so you might also be SOL when you try to just connect to the internet. Oh, and it's in those High-speed internet routers too, good luck in getting the router to turn on.

And I don't understand the arguments against linux based on the command line. Bash and other shells are great but you forget that linux HAS A GUI!. It's called the X Server.

And there currently is a resurgent in CLIs. The main perpetrator of it is a small little microkernel in the operating system known as Windows Vista. That's right. Instead of using the same gimped CLI in Windows XP, Microsoft recognized the power of the CLI and developed a more powerful CLI that is more like the shell programs in unix-like operating system.

And enabling multimedia support is just as easy on nix as it is on a fresh install of Windows. Let's pretend we're in a new install of Suse.

1. wget http://us.download.nvidia.com/XFree86/L...746/NVIDIA-Linux-x86-1.0-9746-pkg1.run

2. sudo sh NVIDIA-Linux-x86-1.0-9746-pkg1.run

3. Ctrl+Alt+Backspace

Tada, nvidia drivers are compiled and configured to work.

1. wget http://www3.mplayerhq.hu/MPlayer/releases/MPlayer-1.0rc1.tar.bz2

2. tar -xzvf MPlayer-1.0rc1.tar.bz2

3. cd MPlayer-1.0rc1

4. sudo ./configure; sudo make; sudo make install

Mplayer is installed

Now if we really just wanted compatibility with almost all codecs, we could just install VLC

1. wget http://download.videolan.org/pub/videolan/vlc/0.8.6a/vlc-0.8.6a.tar.gz

2. tar -xzvf vlc-0.8.6a.tar.gz

3. cd vlc-0.8.6a

4. sudo ./configure; sudo make; sudo make install

Oh boy, that was REALLY tough. I think I could spend hours just trying to figure that out. We really don't even need to specify which distro, because those instructions would work among all the distrobutions. Uninstallation is just as easy.

Sudo make uninstall

Tada. Everything is gone. No more cleaning out the Program Files folder. No more registry cleanings. No dreams of being whipped by Bill Gates dressed in black leather.


And since when does the kernel for your OS change every 10 minutes? Only kernels that are considered to be stable and able to work with older versions of code actually make it into the final code base. Perhaps you've been using the experimental kernels? You know, the ones that are labeled DEVELOPERS ONLY.

I can understand frustration at a new environment, but to totally dismiss it because you have to spend time to learn is just wrong. I'm not even sure if you need to spend that much time learning it now. Distros like SuSE, Ubuntu and PC BSD are all great at keeping the stuff "under the hood" out of sight and out of mind.


 

Aluvus

Platinum Member
Apr 27, 2006
2,913
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Originally posted by: Quinton McLeod
You're missing the point.
Not everyone who runs Windows knows to do what you just listed.

"Don't run Outlook or Internet Explorer, don't run as admin"? Nothing complicated there. Do you suppose those people would be able to take care of a Linux system? Experience suggests they would not. In a distro that prevents them from logging in as root, they might survive. But please realize that an inexperienced, unattentive user logged in as root on a Linux machine can be every bit as dangerous as any virus, worm, or whatever.

The greatest security threat is not the operating system, it is the operator.

Also, there are so many distros out there for Linux that viruses are just plain incompatible.

Unless it's based on an exploit in any common package.

Running Windows XP in user mode is out of the question. Majority of the programs out there require Admin rights.

I can only think of one program with this restriction offhand, and it's an old version (1999 or 2000 maybe) of a program (The Print Shop) that few people use. Any modern-ish program with that restriction, unless it genuinely needs the user to be an admin, is garbage.

And "Run as..." takes care of the issue anyway.
 

wetcat007

Diamond Member
Nov 5, 2002
3,502
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Originally posted by: Tick
Linux SUCKS. Why? Because:

1) Command lines/Lack of GUI's

Why the fvck would I want to use a command line? I have a modern computer, capable of displaying color and icons. Why should their be a command line? And further, why doesn't everything have a gui? Gui's are good, and easy, and don't require me to learn commands. Yey for Gui's.

2)Root/sudo is stupid.

Why on earth should I have to deal with either using sudo or running as root to actually use my programs? I still can't get a lot of programs to run because they keep whining about permissions. What ever happened to good old admin accounts? Why does sudo break everything?

3)Apt-get

Now this is just plane stupid. Why is it so damn hard to install anything? I have a desktop, why not do it the way it should be done? I get the installer icon, click on it, press forward a few times, wait, and have a nice icon on my desktop. Why isn't it done this way?

4)Compiling

Again, stupid. Just give me a fvcking installer program. None of this compiling sh1t.




Come on Linux. The rest of the world has moved beyond 1990. It's time for you to do so also. I'm giving up and installing windows.

rofl
There is a gui you know? You can do most things without touching the command line in ubuntu. Command lines are good for a great many things as well... Not sure what your complaint is about apt-get... it's real difficult. say I want to install amarok. I have to type sudo apt-get install amarok OMG!!@! it starts installing on itself and is done rather quickly. Obviously going to a website and downloading a file going to that file double clicking it and then running through a wizard is the only way of doing things... Compiling... for most stuff you don't need to compile it unless of course you wish to.

The idea of using root and sudo increases security dramatically, but you can always go back to the windows 98 concept of security if you'd like.

Installing... in gnome you ever gone to applications add/remove btw?

I think you were installing Linux with the mindset that you'd hate it, or you expected the OS to hold your hand the entire way and be filled with annoying wizards.
 

Quinton McLeod

Senior member
Jan 17, 2006
375
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Originally posted by: Aluvus
Originally posted by: Quinton McLeod
You're missing the point.
Not everyone who runs Windows knows to do what you just listed.

"Don't run Outlook or Internet Explorer, don't run as admin"? Nothing complicated there. Do you suppose those people would be able to take care of a Linux system? Experience suggests they would not. In a distro that prevents them from logging in as root, they might survive. But please realize that an inexperienced, unattentive user logged in as root on a Linux machine can be every bit as dangerous as any virus, worm, or whatever.

The greatest security threat is not the operating system, it is the operator.

Also, there are so many distros out there for Linux that viruses are just plain incompatible.

Unless it's based on an exploit in any common package.

Running Windows XP in user mode is out of the question. Majority of the programs out there require Admin rights.

I can only think of one program with this restriction offhand, and it's an old version (1999 or 2000 maybe) of a program (The Print Shop) that few people use. Any modern-ish program with that restriction, unless it genuinely needs the user to be an admin, is garbage.

And "Run as..." takes care of the issue anyway.

First off... Many games require Admin access. Also, AIM requires Admin. ICQ as well. These are just to name a few. However, a lot of programs require admin access.

There's also a little more to Windows than just not running two programs. There are other programs that use the IE core by default. A lot of instant messagers use IE. AIM is one of them (and this program requires Admin).

Name an exploit to a package every distro is vulnerable to. Make sure that exploit has the ability to gain root. If it does not, then it will not affect Linux to the degree in which Windows can be affected.

On Windows, why should a user have to hold shift and right click every program they need to run with admin rights? Besides, that won't do it any good considering some of Windows XP's running system programs run as root by default and have vulnerabilities. Lets not forget the fact that "update.microsoft.com" goes underneath your Winsocks. This means you cannot use a software firewall to block that site, nor can you use the HOSTS file to redirect it. This is a vulnerability that can be used to allow a hacker to force a computer to gain access to any site they wish. A vulnerability that has never been fixed and is even found in Vista.
 

Markbnj

Elite Member <br>Moderator Emeritus
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Sep 16, 2005
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www.markbetz.net
The authoritative servers for DNS routing run Unix and unix-like operating systems i.e. linux. You wouldn't be able to query domains. Linux is also used by ISPs, so you might also be SOL when you try to just connect to the internet. Oh, and it's in those High-speed internet routers too, good luck in getting the router to turn on.

They run on highly-stable, 24x7x365 administered Unix servers, not Linux, but otherwise grats on knowing how the Internet works. I don't think the poster I replied to was talking about the Internet's root servers. ISPs run Linux, Unix[es], and Windows. So what? The devices that you depend on when connecting through an ISP are largely running embedded operating systems anyway. Ditto home routers. Some of this is Linux, some not. Either way I don't think we're discussing embedded systems here either. That's a whole 'nother ball of wax.

The poster I replied to had assumed that a huge, very highly-trafficked site like Anandtech was running on Linux, when in fact it is running on Windows servers, as are some of the largest sites on the net. I don't think anyone knowlegeable doubts the capability of IIS 6.0/ASP.NET 2/Windows Server 2003 to run in a high-reliability environment, while providing an excellent web application development/deployment framework. Nor would I say that when the OP posted that Linux sucked, he was referring to its reliability as a backbone device and server operating system.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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Name an exploit to a package every distro is vulnerable to. Make sure that exploit has the ability to gain root. If it does not, then it will not affect Linux to the degree in which Windows can be affected.

Recently there was a vulnerability in Samba[1] that affected every version from 3.0.6 - 3.0.23d inclusive, so every distro that includes any one of the last 17 Samba releases is affected.

[1] http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/459167

On Windows, why should a user have to hold shift and right click every program they need to run with admin rights?

They don't have to, you can have Windows remember the credentials if you want.

Besides, that won't do it any good considering some of Windows XP's running system programs run as root by default and have vulnerabilities.

So? Every OS has things that run as admin and have vulnerabilties.

Lets not forget the fact that "update.microsoft.com" goes underneath your Winsocks. This means you cannot use a software firewall to block that site, nor can you use the HOSTS file to redirect it. This is a vulnerability that can be used to allow a hacker to force a computer to gain access to any site they wish. A vulnerability that has never been fixed and is even found in Vista.

Oh please. There is no way a remote site can avoid WinSOCK if that's how you connected to it and there is no way that MS decided to code the automatic updates daemon or IE to use raw sockets instead of normal WinSOCK calls.
 

Karot

Member
Jan 15, 2007
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Originally posted by: Markbnj
They run on highly-stable, 24x7x365 administered Unix servers, not Linux, but otherwise grats on knowing how the Internet works. I don't think the poster I replied to was talking about the Internet's root servers. ISPs run Linux, Unix[es], and Windows. So what? The devices that you depend on when connecting through an ISP are largely running embedded operating systems anyway. Ditto home routers. Some of this is Linux, some not. Either way I don't think we're discussing embedded systems here either. That's a whole 'nother ball of wax.

The poster I replied to had assumed that a huge, very highly-trafficked site like Anandtech was running on Linux, when in fact it is running on Windows servers, as are some of the largest sites on the net. I don't think anyone knowlegeable doubts the capability of IIS 6.0/ASP.NET 2/Windows Server 2003 to run in a high-reliability environment, while providing an excellent web application development/deployment framework. Nor would I say that when the OP posted that Linux sucked, he was referring to its reliability as a backbone device and server operating system.

My point was in saying that Linux has an influence in more places than server and desktop operating systems. You are right that Windows Server can be stable and reliable. And the NT kernel is nice enough for server purposes. And I forgot which operating system that the authoritative servers used. Then again, I'm not sure that the things they did to their versions of Unix are what you would see when you go dl FreeBSD. I suppose part of it comes from the Unix tradition in networking, and latter with Linux (although it wasn't originally implemented until the release).

 

Quinton McLeod

Senior member
Jan 17, 2006
375
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
Name an exploit to a package every distro is vulnerable to. Make sure that exploit has the ability to gain root. If it does not, then it will not affect Linux to the degree in which Windows can be affected.

Recently there was a vulnerability in Samba[1] that affected every version from 3.0.6 - 3.0.23d inclusive, so every distro that includes any one of the last 17 Samba releases is affected.

[1] http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/459167

On Windows, why should a user have to hold shift and right click every program they need to run with admin rights?

They don't have to, you can have Windows remember the credentials if you want.

Besides, that won't do it any good considering some of Windows XP's running system programs run as root by default and have vulnerabilities.

So? Every OS has things that run as admin and have vulnerabilties.

Lets not forget the fact that "update.microsoft.com" goes underneath your Winsocks. This means you cannot use a software firewall to block that site, nor can you use the HOSTS file to redirect it. This is a vulnerability that can be used to allow a hacker to force a computer to gain access to any site they wish. A vulnerability that has never been fixed and is even found in Vista.

Oh please. There is no way a remote site can avoid WinSOCK if that's how you connected to it and there is no way that MS decided to code the automatic updates daemon or IE to use raw sockets instead of normal WinSOCK calls.

Nothinman! How can you do this to me? I'm going to have your baby!!

How fast was the Samba vulnerability fixed? A heck of a lot faster than Windows "We'll repair Windows every 6 months." issue. Also, it says:

"The bug is believed to be exploitable only by an authenticated
user. The server's exposure can be alleviated by disabling
any suspect or hostile user accounts."

This is a local exploit and not a remote exploit like MANY of the running services found in Windows.

Every OS has services running as admin?! That is not true. Most *nix servers have NOTHING running as root. You should know better than that! OS 10 doesn't even have services running as root.

You're very naive if you think the WIndows Update site doesn't avoid the Winsock. If you don't believe me, then use the HOSTS file and try to redirect update.microsoft.com to google.com. Heck, try to block it with a software firewall. You'll quickly find out that you CAN'T!


You're going to pay child support for this baby whether you like it or not!


 

nweaver

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2001
6,813
1
0
Pretty tweaked Ubuntu install....

nickw@nkw-desk:~$ ps aux | grep root
root 1 0.0 0.0 1632 396 ? Ss Jan24 0:02 /sbin/init splash
root 2 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S Jan24 0:00 [migration/0]
root 3 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? SN Jan24 0:00 [ksoftirqd/0]
root 4 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S Jan24 0:00 [watchdog/0]
root 5 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:02 [events/0]
root 6 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [khelper]
root 7 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [kthread]
root 9 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:02 [kblockd/0]
root 10 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [kacpid]
root 11 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [kacpi_notify]
root 105 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [kseriod]
root 140 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S Jan24 0:23 [kswapd0]
root 141 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [aio/0]
root 1748 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [ata/0]
root 1752 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [scsi_eh_0]
root 1753 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [scsi_eh_1]
root 1764 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [scsi_eh_2]
root 1803 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [khubd]
root 2060 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:13 [kjournald]
root 2141 0.0 0.0 1604 368 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 //sbin/logd
root 2287 0.0 0.0 2612 488 ? S<s Jan24 0:00 /sbin/udevd --daemon
root 3004 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [shpchpd]
root 3134 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [kpsmoused]
root 3246 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [kgameportd]
root 3621 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:08 [kjournald]
root 3868 0.0 0.0 1596 336 tty1 Ss+ Jan24 0:00 /sbin/getty 38400 tty1
root 3869 0.0 0.0 1596 336 tty2 Ss+ Jan24 0:00 /sbin/getty 38400 tty2
root 3870 0.0 0.0 1600 336 tty3 Ss+ Jan24 0:00 /sbin/getty 38400 tty3
root 3871 0.0 0.0 1596 336 tty4 Ss+ Jan24 0:00 /sbin/getty 38400 tty4
root 3872 0.0 0.0 1600 336 tty5 Ss+ Jan24 0:00 /sbin/getty 38400 tty5
root 3873 0.0 0.0 1596 336 tty6 Ss+ Jan24 0:00 /sbin/getty 38400 tty6
root 4082 0.0 0.0 2200 596 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 /usr/sbin/acpid -c /etc/acpi/events -s /var/run/acpid.socket
root 4205 0.0 0.0 1724 320 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 /bin/dd bs 1 if /proc/kmsg of /var/run/klogd/kmsg
root 4279 0.0 0.0 11800 1580 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 /usr/sbin/gdm
root 4338 0.0 0.0 4904 568 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 /usr/sbin/hpiod
root 4438 0.0 0.0 2912 936 ? S Jan24 0:00 hald-runner
root 4487 0.0 0.0 2076 588 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 /usr/sbin/dhcdbd --system
root 4504 0.0 0.0 21644 1880 ? Ssl Jan24 0:02 /usr/sbin/NetworkManager --pid-file /var/run/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.pid
root 4518 0.0 0.0 2964 1060 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 /usr/sbin/NetworkManagerDispatcher --pid-file /var/run/NetworkManager/NetworkManagerDispatcher.pid
root 4533 0.0 0.0 13884 816 ? S Jan24 0:00 perl /usr/share/system-tools-backends-2.0/scripts/SystemToolsBackends.pl
root 4648 0.0 0.0 2072 516 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 /usr/sbin/hcid -x
root 4652 0.0 0.0 1668 348 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 /usr/sbin/sdpd
root 4669 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [krfcommd]
root 4715 0.0 0.0 2192 620 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 /usr/sbin/cron
root 17330 0.0 0.1 28208 2248 ? Ss Jan25 0:02 /usr/sbin/spamd --create-prefs --max-children 5 --helper-home-dir -d --pidfile=/var/run/spamd.pid
root 17334 0.0 0.0 28208 1176 ? S Jan25 0:00 spamd child
root 17335 0.0 0.0 28208 1160 ? S Jan25 0:00 spamd child
root 1968 0.0 0.0 6636 488 ? Ss Jan25 0:00 /sbin/mount.smbfs //216.119.203.150/mp3 /media/frank -o rw username mp3
root 1974 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S Jan25 1:00 [smbiod]
root 31343 0.0 0.0 1448 104 ? S Jan26 0:00 /usr/bin/vmnet-bridge -d /var/run/vmnet-bridge-0.pid /dev/vmnet0 eth0
root 31347 0.0 0.0 1452 104 ? S Jan26 0:00 /usr/bin/vmnet-bridge -d /var/run/vmnet-bridge-2.pid /dev/vmnet2 ath0
root 31352 0.0 0.3 18400 6924 ? Ss Jan26 2:26 /usr/sbin/vmware-serverd -s -d
root 15930 0.0 0.1 10732 2168 ? S Feb02 0:01 /usr/bin/artsd -F 10 -S 4096 -s 60 -m artsmessage -l 3 -f
root 16950 0.0 0.0 4944 816 ? Ss Feb02 0:02 /usr/sbin/sshd
root 25092 0.0 0.0 13084 1056 ? SNs Feb04 0:00 /usr/sbin/apache2 -k start -DSSL
root 23586 0.0 0.0 3456 1136 ? S Feb05 0:00 /sbin/wpa_supplicant -dd -g /var/run/wpa_supplicant-global
root 21526 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S Feb06 0:01 [pdflush]
root 4529 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S Feb06 0:00 [pdflush]
nickw 26142 0.0 0.5 19076 11408 ? TNL Feb07 0:00 atunnel -root
nickw 26170 0.0 0.5 19076 11400 ? TNL Feb07 0:00 atunnel -root
root 26203 0.0 0.1 12156 2484 ? S Feb07 0:00 /usr/sbin/gdm
root 26206 1.6 9.6 230616 201112 tty7 RLs+ Feb07 27:18 /usr/X11R6/bin/X :0 -br -audit 0 -auth /var/lib/gdm/:0.Xauth -nolisten tcp vt7
root 27146 0.0 0.0 6856 1364 ? Ss Feb07 0:03 /usr/sbin/nmbd -D
root 27148 0.0 0.1 9736 2256 ? Ss Feb07 0:00 /usr/sbin/smbd -D
root 27152 0.0 0.0 9736 924 ? S Feb07 0:00 /usr/sbin/smbd -D
root 26932 0.0 0.0 1652 612 ? SNs 07:35 0:00 /sbin/syslogd
root 30196 0.0 0.1 10000 2304 ? S 08:55 0:00 /usr/sbin/smbd -D


 

Quinton McLeod

Senior member
Jan 17, 2006
375
0
0
Originally posted by: nweaver
Pretty tweaked Ubuntu install....

nickw@nkw-desk:~$ ps aux | grep root
root 1 0.0 0.0 1632 396 ? Ss Jan24 0:02 /sbin/init splash
root 2 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S Jan24 0:00 [migration/0]
root 3 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? SN Jan24 0:00 [ksoftirqd/0]
root 4 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S Jan24 0:00 [watchdog/0]
root 5 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:02 [events/0]
root 6 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [khelper]
root 7 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [kthread]
root 9 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:02 [kblockd/0]
root 10 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [kacpid]
root 11 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [kacpi_notify]
root 105 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [kseriod]
root 140 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S Jan24 0:23 [kswapd0]
root 141 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [aio/0]
root 1748 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [ata/0]
root 1752 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [scsi_eh_0]
root 1753 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [scsi_eh_1]
root 1764 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [scsi_eh_2]
root 1803 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [khubd]
root 2060 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:13 [kjournald]
root 2141 0.0 0.0 1604 368 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 //sbin/logd
root 2287 0.0 0.0 2612 488 ? S<s Jan24 0:00 /sbin/udevd --daemon
root 3004 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [shpchpd]
root 3134 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [kpsmoused]
root 3246 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [kgameportd]
root 3621 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:08 [kjournald]
root 3868 0.0 0.0 1596 336 tty1 Ss+ Jan24 0:00 /sbin/getty 38400 tty1
root 3869 0.0 0.0 1596 336 tty2 Ss+ Jan24 0:00 /sbin/getty 38400 tty2
root 3870 0.0 0.0 1600 336 tty3 Ss+ Jan24 0:00 /sbin/getty 38400 tty3
root 3871 0.0 0.0 1596 336 tty4 Ss+ Jan24 0:00 /sbin/getty 38400 tty4
root 3872 0.0 0.0 1600 336 tty5 Ss+ Jan24 0:00 /sbin/getty 38400 tty5
root 3873 0.0 0.0 1596 336 tty6 Ss+ Jan24 0:00 /sbin/getty 38400 tty6
root 4082 0.0 0.0 2200 596 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 /usr/sbin/acpid -c /etc/acpi/events -s /var/run/acpid.socket
root 4205 0.0 0.0 1724 320 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 /bin/dd bs 1 if /proc/kmsg of /var/run/klogd/kmsg
root 4279 0.0 0.0 11800 1580 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 /usr/sbin/gdm
root 4338 0.0 0.0 4904 568 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 /usr/sbin/hpiod
root 4438 0.0 0.0 2912 936 ? S Jan24 0:00 hald-runner
root 4487 0.0 0.0 2076 588 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 /usr/sbin/dhcdbd --system
root 4504 0.0 0.0 21644 1880 ? Ssl Jan24 0:02 /usr/sbin/NetworkManager --pid-file /var/run/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.pid
root 4518 0.0 0.0 2964 1060 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 /usr/sbin/NetworkManagerDispatcher --pid-file /var/run/NetworkManager/NetworkManagerDispatcher.pid
root 4533 0.0 0.0 13884 816 ? S Jan24 0:00 perl /usr/share/system-tools-backends-2.0/scripts/SystemToolsBackends.pl
root 4648 0.0 0.0 2072 516 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 /usr/sbin/hcid -x
root 4652 0.0 0.0 1668 348 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 /usr/sbin/sdpd
root 4669 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S< Jan24 0:00 [krfcommd]
root 4715 0.0 0.0 2192 620 ? Ss Jan24 0:00 /usr/sbin/cron
root 17330 0.0 0.1 28208 2248 ? Ss Jan25 0:02 /usr/sbin/spamd --create-prefs --max-children 5 --helper-home-dir -d --pidfile=/var/run/spamd.pid
root 17334 0.0 0.0 28208 1176 ? S Jan25 0:00 spamd child
root 17335 0.0 0.0 28208 1160 ? S Jan25 0:00 spamd child
root 1968 0.0 0.0 6636 488 ? Ss Jan25 0:00 /sbin/mount.smbfs //216.119.203.150/mp3 /media/frank -o rw username mp3
root 1974 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S Jan25 1:00 [smbiod]
root 31343 0.0 0.0 1448 104 ? S Jan26 0:00 /usr/bin/vmnet-bridge -d /var/run/vmnet-bridge-0.pid /dev/vmnet0 eth0
root 31347 0.0 0.0 1452 104 ? S Jan26 0:00 /usr/bin/vmnet-bridge -d /var/run/vmnet-bridge-2.pid /dev/vmnet2 ath0
root 31352 0.0 0.3 18400 6924 ? Ss Jan26 2:26 /usr/sbin/vmware-serverd -s -d
root 15930 0.0 0.1 10732 2168 ? S Feb02 0:01 /usr/bin/artsd -F 10 -S 4096 -s 60 -m artsmessage -l 3 -f
root 16950 0.0 0.0 4944 816 ? Ss Feb02 0:02 /usr/sbin/sshd
root 25092 0.0 0.0 13084 1056 ? SNs Feb04 0:00 /usr/sbin/apache2 -k start -DSSL
root 23586 0.0 0.0 3456 1136 ? S Feb05 0:00 /sbin/wpa_supplicant -dd -g /var/run/wpa_supplicant-global
root 21526 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S Feb06 0:01 [pdflush]
root 4529 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S Feb06 0:00 [pdflush]
nickw 26142 0.0 0.5 19076 11408 ? TNL Feb07 0:00 atunnel -root
nickw 26170 0.0 0.5 19076 11400 ? TNL Feb07 0:00 atunnel -root
root 26203 0.0 0.1 12156 2484 ? S Feb07 0:00 /usr/sbin/gdm
root 26206 1.6 9.6 230616 201112 tty7 RLs+ Feb07 27:18 /usr/X11R6/bin/X :0 -br -audit 0 -auth /var/lib/gdm/:0.Xauth -nolisten tcp vt7
root 27146 0.0 0.0 6856 1364 ? Ss Feb07 0:03 /usr/sbin/nmbd -D
root 27148 0.0 0.1 9736 2256 ? Ss Feb07 0:00 /usr/sbin/smbd -D
root 27152 0.0 0.0 9736 924 ? S Feb07 0:00 /usr/sbin/smbd -D
root 26932 0.0 0.0 1652 612 ? SNs 07:35 0:00 /sbin/syslogd
root 30196 0.0 0.1 10000 2304 ? S 08:55 0:00 /usr/sbin/smbd -D
First of all, those are a lot of background services

Second, you're running X server. You're also running a lot of unnecessary crap such as the
Spam Assassin (which really doesn't do any good on a Linux box).

Third, you're not running a server. I specifically said Linux servers don't run any service as root. The guy I replied to said "ALL" OSes running a root service. That is simply not true.
 

Quinton McLeod

Senior member
Jan 17, 2006
375
0
0
Originally posted by: stash
How fast was the Samba vulnerability fixed? A heck of a lot faster than Windows "We'll repair Windows every 6 months." issue.
WTF?

http://blogs.technet.com/security/archi...secunia-unpatched-warnings-part-3.aspx


That is a good example of FUD.

First of all, Red Hat is a distro of linux that costs over a grand. It also doesn't say much for the majority of Linux which actually has LESS vulnerabilities.

This was more of trying to prove something that just isn't the case for Linux. If you're going to use a distro, try comparing Slackware to Windows.
 
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