Linux User look in please

Wigwam

Senior member
Dec 26, 2002
943
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could you post what version of Linux you use and why [ie what advantage over other versions] and what disadvantages/wekanesses other versions have...how linux-virgin-friendly it is etc

considering installing it to "play" as i understand it is tweaker's heaven [more question on install strategies nearer the time]
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
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0
All Linux distros are roughly equal. What one can do, any other distro can do.

That's the nice thing about open source software. Any improvements that get made in one distro can instantly be translated to another one.


That being said what I like is the ability to use advanced package managers like Apt and Yum. These are programs that allow you to download/install programs and updates over the internet.

One of the major hassles with software in Linux is dependances. The idea is that you create functionality in one program or software library that can be used in other programs. So say you download the GTK+ libraries and that can be used by another program to create GUI widgets (the little things like the maximize minimize buttons and standard menus and interfaces). So that way the author of the program can concitrate on the basic functionality of the program rather then wasting his/her time redoing the GUI portion from the low-level up.

So it makes it easier and cheaper to make programs. The downside is that a user has to have GTK+ pre-installed to use that program.

Stuff like that is called "dependancies". In Windows when you install programs your either using the standard Win32 API (the standard set of libraries (*.dll files) and programs in all Windows OSes from Win95 up) or all the third party dependancies are installed along with the program from the installation media.

Linux programs don't do this and expect you to get all the dependancies yourself. They'll tell you in the docs sometimes what to do, but it's up to you to do it.

If you have lots of missing dependancies or version conflicts it can be a big pain. This is called "dependancy hell" and is a major hurdle for new Linux users, next to getting badly supported hardware working properly (such as nvidia motherboards or ATI video cards).

Apt and Yum solve dependancy hell by keeping track of programs and libraries in online repositories. By updating against these repositories you keep your OS patched and up to date, and when you use apt or yum to install programs all the dependancies are pre-calculated and are downloaded/updated/installed in your computer as you need them.

So say to install mplayer you would go "apt-get install mplayer" and it would look for packages that match that name, check out the dependancies and then download the program and all the dependancies and install them and set them up with a initial default configuration. This make things easily.

Or for instance you have a serious security flaw in your OS. So the developers will issue a patch, the package maintainers will create a updated package. Then all you have to do is:

apt-get update
apt-get upgrade

And it'll get fixed. Using yum you would go :

yum update

The 3 distros that do this very well are Debian, Gentoo, and Fedora.

Out of those Fedora is probably the easiest for a Windows user to relate too. Easy graphical installer, and a vast user base. Yum is installed by default and Apt is optional but supported. However the initial packages are limited in scope. Several programs are not normally aviable by the official Fedora sources and you have to rely on third party repositories for many programs. Luckly those third party repositories are of decent quality. Fedora, like all Redhat based distros (like Suse/Mandrake) use RPM packages and have adapted Yum from Yellowdog (powerPC linux) and apt-get from Debian for their distro.

People find Gentoo very satisfing though, since it's minimallist installing approach means that you do everything by hand and people learn a lot from doing this for the first time. However everything is compiled from scratch (optionally) and it can take several hours to complete a full install. Even a day or 2. They have a optional binary install. Gentoo is going to be the most atractive for the "advanced tweaker". Since everything is compiled from source it offers you the most options aviable and many people spend hours figuring out the optimal configuration and compile options for their system. It is based on the portage package management system. The gentoo forums are a great help for many people and offers many learning opertunities.

Debian is commonly used by advanced users and has the best quality packages, however going from Windows to Debian is a very big change and is difficult for many people to adjust. Debian is going to have the highest quality packages aviable for it. Very professional very serious. Some people get tired of the politics and whatnot, but they are hardcore on their positions about free software and legalities.


Out of those Fedora is going to be most "user friendly". However reviews online tend to be slightly negative. Other "user-friendly" style distros are Suse and Mandrake and many people prefer those over Fedora, especially for the newbie. However I feel that their official support of Yum and Apt more then make up for it's deficiencies. Third party repositories include Dag, ATrpms, Freshrpms, but those are not recommended by Fedora to use because they don't cooridant officially with the official repositories. "At your own risk" sort of thing.

I use Fedora and Debian. However if you want maximum tweakatude go Gentoo. However using Linux is a very abrupt change from Windows. Very different enviroments. The nice thing though is that once you get used to the Unix way of doing things then your can easily adapt to a whole host of other operating enviroments such as the BSDs, OS X (as a "hacker" type), Solaris, etc etc.

Check out the docs at www.tldp.org and especially the bash introduction guide, and the Linux administrator guide as they are distro agnostic, anything you learn their can be easily used in any distro and most unixes. Which is nice since you don't have to worry about getting stuck to any single distro.
 

pitupepito2000

Golden Member
Aug 2, 2002
1,181
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Linux is not Unix. Linux was created by Linus Torvalds in 1991 as a Minix clone. Linux was created by hackers for hackers, meaning that it wasn't easy click and point, it took some knowledge and time to get it to work. Times have changed since then. Now there are many different Linux distributions, and they all use the same linux kernel. That being said what makes a difference between all the different distributions such as: Suse, Fedora, Gentoo, LFS, Debian, Slackaware, Arch, etc is the installation process what kind of configuration tools they offer, and what type of package management they use. Package management can be compared to the Install Shields in Windows, but a whole lot better. For example, some distros have a very non-GUI installation that require you know a lot of knowledge about the chipsets that you have, the types of drivers used for certain drivers, other distros such as Fedora, Suse, Mandrake try to do a lot of automatic detection for you, and show you a pretty gui.

The main feature that people look at when analyzing a distro is the package manager because it affects how you mantain/update/upgrade your computer. It can make a huge difference between spending a couple of seconds installing a program and spending several hours in dependency-hell. The most popular package manager as already specified by drag is Debian's it's so easy to upgrade and mantain. Gentoo's portage comes second you compile everything, and because of that provides you with a lot of optimization options for your specific hardware configuration.

In conclusion, I use debian because it's easy to set up and mantain, but for a newcomer I wouldn't recommend it. I would suggest you use Fedora, Suse, or Mandrake. Your homework is to go to google and to find the website of these distros, look at the installation manuals, and also go to www.tldp.org and read a how-to install linux. Again, the advantages of a distro mainly lye in installation process, package manager and configuration tools that they offer. My last suggestion is you download knoppix, from www.linuxiso.org and try it out, see what linux can do.

Note: Knoppix is a linux distro that runs off the CD, it's a way that you can try linux without installing it. It doesn't require that you install anything to your hdd.
 

Wigwam

Senior member
Dec 26, 2002
943
0
0
thank you both for very useful answers.

i have one related concerned - all the drivers etc for my m/b hardware and gfx card are obviously for windows. would i also need to install differerent drivers for Linux - and if so would they conflict with the windows drivers?

i read in the recent review about linus live that some distros really had a problem with the nforce hardware so wanna be cautious about this too....

btw how much partition size would you recommend for a Linux [eg fedora] install?
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
For Linux you have a minimum of 2 partitions you need to make. 1 partition is the swap partition, Linux doesn't use a swap file like Windows does, it use a seperate swap partition (a bit faster and cuts down on the file system fragmentation). The second partition is your main one, called the root partition. It'll hold all your system files.

You can have more. Linux doesn't use stuff like C: drives and things like that. Instead it used a directory tree starting at / (root), and all your partitions, network shares, cdroms, whatever get mounted to directories inside that single directory. So I like to make a seperate home partition that gets mounted to /home for saving my user settings and files incase I want to reinstall.

But you don't have to worry about that right now.

For a recommended full-install you use about 4 or 5 gigs of disk space. That's not just for system files, but for all the applicaitons you can use so their is a lot of space that gets used up. Although I'd probably recommend 10gigs for a root partition as that will give you extra breathing room for user files and such.

For the swap partition between 500megs to 1gig is sufficient.


The change from Windows to Linux is quite a culture shock, many basic things are different between the OSes (although the fundamentals are the same).

Since your only using one OS at a time, there should be no conflicts between them when dealing with drivers. If your using a Nvidia product you have to go to nvidia.com and download the drivers and pay carefull considuration to their instructions if everything (networking or 3d acceleration) is not working off of the bat. Most other drivers, except for newer ATI cards, will be provided by default.

Go and search google with searches like this one for lots of introductionary documentation that will hopefully provide you the tools nessicary to be confortable with your new OS.

also pay attention to the fedora docs, or whatever OS you choose (many find Suse or Mandrake very newbie freindly

Most distros will have specific documentation somewere on their home websites to help you get going on using them.
 

pitupepito2000

Golden Member
Aug 2, 2002
1,181
0
0
Hi,

Things that you do in Linux should not interfere with other things on windows. For example, when you get ready to install Linux, you will have to create at least 2 partitions one of them will be the linux root partition or "/" and the other one will be for swap. You will need plenty of space in your root parition because the installation of linux is very different than the one in windows. For example if you go to donwload distros like Fedora, Mandrake and others you will notice that there are several disks of installation, and that's because they all full of apps. Compared to windows installation that just installs notepad, and wordpad, linux installations that are user friendly install things graphically and they give you a wealth in choices of things to pick, for example you get at least 3 or 4 web browsers, you get several text editors, etc.

To get things such as hardware working in linux is a little different than windows, sometimes it may take a little of RTFM, lots of reading the friendly manual, in the case of nvidia stuff, you have to go to their website and download the drivers fromt them.

RECOMMENDED READING:
www.tldp.org
www.google.com/linux
www.google.com ----> seach for fedora install doc, mandrake install, knoppix, and nvidia linux drivers.
 

Illissius

Senior member
May 8, 2004
246
0
0
I'll just pitch in that I'm really liking Gentoo. You have to install it from scratch, but they have a very straightforward, step-by-step guide to doing it which I had zero trouble with, and I went in knowing practically nothing (I had installed Mandrake a few weeks earlier, and removed it after a few days because I didn't like it that much and I couldn't get the ATi drivers to work*, but that was about the sum of my Linux experience). They also have a very friendly and helpful forum, and if you do a search you'll find that most problems you have, have already been encountered by others and solved.
Plus, it's a tweaker's heaven, and I actually feel like I have some grasp of how it all works and am not at a complete loss of what to do when I have to solve a problem, as I was with Mandrake.
(And Portage is Pwnage.)

* I've since switched to nVidia, which works without problems and is as fast as it is under Windows (contrary to ATi - I've heard that a 9600 Pro performs on the level of a GF2 under Linux, assuming you can get it working at all).
 

UmneyDurak

Member
Aug 8, 2004
63
0
0
Finally got Fedora Core 2 to dual boot with XP.
Frankly I don't recommend it, untill they fix the dual boot issue. Thats the only big thing I have against it.
Other then that setup was pretty easy. Can't say more since I just installed it. Before I was using Mandrake. If you just want to use linux without a lot of hastle you can look in to it. Although 10.0 isn't all that stable either. I couldn't make nvidia drivers work on it, but ATI worked without any problems.
 

TwoBills

Senior member
Apr 11, 2004
734
0
76
Talk about saying it in plain english.

I was halfway thru this thread when I saw that Gentoo was the distro that'll do it for me. I've been checking distros out for the last couple of weeks, couldn't really understand much, burned a copy of Knoppx to fool around with, and pretty much was ready to cop an oem XP for my new machine and be done with it.

Drag and "pepe" have hit my reset button. Thanks guys.
 
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