Little girl shooting minigun

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CFster

Golden Member
Oct 16, 1999
1,903
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76
Originally posted by: Dissipate
It sounds to me like you are paranoid of paranoid people. How many of these 'paranoid' people do you think are out there? Are you paranoid they are going to use their guns to come and get you?

Yes. I'm paranoid that people are allowed to own guns in the name of the Constitution and kids are dying because of it.

Other countries (1st world countries) ban guns and do just fine.

My "paranoia" is well founded. Yours is based on something that hasn't happened, and probably never will.

What the heck does this have to do with a 'military state?' Now you are just trying to change the subject.

I think it's a legitimate question. What happens after you overthrow this democratic government? I mean that's what will happen right? Either they win or some militia created by the people does right? Or do you think a couple of guys with guns storming the capitol with shotguns is going to make the government/military roll over and change their ways?


 

orion23

Platinum Member
Oct 1, 2003
2,035
0
71
Good for her!

Last thing you want is your little girl not be be able to defend herself.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: CFster
Originally posted by: Dissipate
It sounds to me like you are paranoid of paranoid people. How many of these 'paranoid' people do you think are out there? Are you paranoid they are going to use their guns to come and get you?

Yes. I'm paranoid that people are allowed to own guns in the name of the Constitution and kids are dying because of it.

Other countries (1st world countries) ban guns and do just fine.

My "paranoia" is well founded. Yours is based on something that hasn't happened, and probably never will.

What the heck does this have to do with a 'military state?' Now you are just trying to change the subject.

I think it's a legitimate question. What happens after you overthrow this democratic government? I mean that's what will happen right? Either they win or some militia created by the people does right? Or do you think a couple of guys with guns storming the capitol with shotguns is going to make the government/military roll over and change their ways?

Uh, it already has happened, as I pointed out above. This country was created from a an armed revolution. You can try to skirt the fact all you want, but it is the truth.

Stupid parents will find ways to put their kids in danger regardless of guns. I shouldn't have to give up my freedom because of a few stupid parents.

Your paranoia has more to do with stupid people than guns. Perhaps we should round them all up and throw them in prison to reduce your anxiety.

It wouldn't be me personally overthrowing the government so how the heck would I know? All I am saying is that we should always and forever have the option of overthrowing our current government. What government we would have afterwards is an entirely different issue that could be debated endlessly. I'm not going to debate that issue. I want to stick to the issue at hand which is gun ownership right here in America, today.

Yeah, those first world countries like Britain are really doing fine with CCTV cameras on every street corner, Tony Blair trying to get rid of the burden of proof, government agents going to peoples homes to collect TV taxes etc. etc. etc. :roll:
 

CFster

Golden Member
Oct 16, 1999
1,903
0
76
BTW, the wording of the 2nd Amendment:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security
of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear
Arms, shall not be infringed."

The NRA leaves the Militia part out all the time. They like to cite "right to bear arms".

Most people don't realize that this was from a time that the states each had their own "well regulated militia", with a large number of citizens comprising it. Meaning that it's members were required to train and report for duty from time to time. This was an ORGANIZED militia.

It was never intended for the general public to rise up and overthrow the government.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: CFster
BTW, the wording of the 2nd Amendment:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security
of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear
Arms, shall not be infringed."

The NRA leaves the Militia part out all the time. They like to cite "right to bear arms".

Most people don't realize that this was from a time that the states each had their own "well regulated militia", with a large number of citizens comprising it. Meaning that it's members were required to train and report for duty from time to time. This was an ORGANIZED militia.

It was never intended for the general public to rise up and overthrow the government.

I don't care what the Constitution says or doesn't say, or what the original intent was. The Constitution really has no bearing on how the government is run anyways. It is a relic document in a glass case, and not much more than that.

Even if the Constitution explicity said only government agents are allowed to own guns, that wouldn't change my views one bit. In fact, it would only strengthen them.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We need the option of overthrowing the government. End of story.
 

CFster

Golden Member
Oct 16, 1999
1,903
0
76
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Uh, it already has happened, as I pointed out above. This country was created from a an armed revolution. You can try to skirt the fact all you want, but it is the truth.

That's was a time when our military was the people - today we have a military to do it for us, if we're ever invaded.

Stupid parents will find ways to put their kids in danger regardless of guns. I shouldn't have to give up my freedom because of a few stupid parents.

That's an irresponsible statement. I go back to my former statement. It's a hell of a lot EASIER with a gun.

Your paranoia has more to do with stupid people than guns. Perhaps we should round them all up and throw them in prison to reduce your anxiety.

Unfortunately we can't round up the stupid people just for being stupid. It would be nice to make laws so they don't get a hold of machine guns. Obviously we have to take care of them.

All I am saying is that we should always and forever have the option of overthrowing our current government. What government we would have afterwards is an entirely different issue that could be debated endlessly. I'm not going to debate that issue. I want to stick to the issue at hand which is gun ownership right here in America, today.

Which wasn't the original intent of the amendment as stated above.

I think the issue IS gun ownership. How everybody justifies it is this paranoia that the government will come down their throats one day if we don't have them to protect ourselves. And they justify that mode of thinking with the 2nd Amendment.

It ALWAYS comes back to that. When all the other arguements are exhausted.

Yeah, those first world countries like Britain are really doing fine with CCTV cameras on every street corner, Tony Blair trying to get rid of the burden of proof, government agents going to peoples homes to collect TV taxes etc. etc. etc. :roll:

Yeah, every country has it's problems. Seems like an exponentially fewer number of people are dying over there though...


 

CFster

Golden Member
Oct 16, 1999
1,903
0
76
Originally posted by: Dissipate
I don't care what the Constitution says or doesn't say, or what the original intent was. The Constitution really has no bearing on how the government is run anyways. It is a relic document in a glass case, and not much more than that.

Even if the Constitution explicity said only government agents are allowed to own guns, that wouldn't change my views one bit. In fact, it would only strengthen them.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We need the option of overthrowing the government. End of story.

Huh?

So now you have no regard for our most basic laws? I mean that's the document that allows you to own a weapon you know. You disregard it when it isn't convenient for you?

And you ask if I'm paranoid? Do many other gun owners believe as you do?


 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: CFster
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Uh, it already has happened, as I pointed out above. This country was created from a an armed revolution. You can try to skirt the fact all you want, but it is the truth.

That's was a time when our military was the people - today we have a military to do it for us, if we're ever invaded.

Who ever said anything about invasion? Germany wasn't invaded when the Holocaust took place, was it?

Stupid parents will find ways to put their kids in danger regardless of guns. I shouldn't have to give up my freedom because of a few stupid parents.

That's an irresponsible statement. I go back to my former statement. It's a hell of a lot EASIER with a gun.

Stupid people create danger a lot easier, I recognize that. Does it suck for the kids? Hell yes it does. But that does not mean that there are plenty of rational adults who are able to handle the responsibility of handling firearms. Should they all be subject to a paternal nanny gun grabbing state? Of course not. Punishing everyone for the mistakes of a few idiots is @ss backwards thinking.

Stupid people cause far more deaths with cars every year than they do with handguns. Are we going to confiscate everyone's car? You may think that guns have no use but cars do. That is your opinion. What is not useful to you is very useful to someone else. To me, a gun can be a very useful tool.


Your paranoia has more to do with stupid people than guns. Perhaps we should round them all up and throw them in prison to reduce your anxiety.

Unfortunately we can't round up the stupid people just for being stupid. It would be nice to make laws so they don't get a hold of machine guns. Obviously we have to take care of them.

'Take care of them' sounds alot like having the government put diapers and leashes on everyone.

All I am saying is that we should always and forever have the option of overthrowing our current government. What government we would have afterwards is an entirely different issue that could be debated endlessly. I'm not going to debate that issue. I want to stick to the issue at hand which is gun ownership right here in America, today.

Which wasn't the original intent of the amendment as stated above.

Once again: I don't care about the Constitution and I don't care about the 2nd Amendment. As far as I am concerned the Constitution was an experiment that failed.

I think the issue IS gun ownership. How everybody justifies it is this paranoia that the government will come down their throats one day if we don't have them to protect ourselves. And they justify that mode of thinking with the 2nd Amendment.

Good for them but I don't and never will. I justify gun ownership on the basis of sound rational thought and facts.

It ALWAYS comes back to that. When all the other arguements are exhausted.

Not for me it doesn't.

Yeah, those first world countries like Britain are really doing fine with CCTV cameras on every street corner, Tony Blair trying to get rid of the burden of proof, government agents going to peoples homes to collect TV taxes etc. etc. etc. :roll:

Yeah, every country has it's problems. Seems like an exponentially fewer number of people are dying over there though...

I'd rather have a few idiots die than being subjected to a total state with cameras on every street corner and guilty until proven innocent laws on the books.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: CFster
Originally posted by: Dissipate
I don't care what the Constitution says or doesn't say, or what the original intent was. The Constitution really has no bearing on how the government is run anyways. It is a relic document in a glass case, and not much more than that.

Even if the Constitution explicity said only government agents are allowed to own guns, that wouldn't change my views one bit. In fact, it would only strengthen them.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We need the option of overthrowing the government. End of story.

Huh?

So now you have no regard for our most basic laws? I mean that's the document that allows you to own a weapon you know. You disregard it when it isn't convenient for you?

And you ask if I'm paranoid? Do many other gun owners believe as you do?

No, the government has no regard for our 'most basic laws.' The Constitution is a piece of paper, and when that piece of paper is interpreted by the very government that it is supposed to bind, it becomes in the words of Anthony de Jasay '[like] A chasity belt to which the state always holds the key.'

No, unfortunately, most gun owners do talk about how the 2nd Amendment secures our 'rights' because they continue to believe that the Constitution is some mystical document that continues to restrain government power. I'm not one of them.
 

CFster

Golden Member
Oct 16, 1999
1,903
0
76
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Who ever said anything about invasion? Germany wasn't invaded when the Holocaust took place, was it?

Oh please.

'Take care of them' sounds alot like having the government put diapers and leashes on everyone.

If it means keeping guns away from irresponsible people then I'm all for it.

Once again: I don't care about the Constitution and I don't care about the 2nd Amendment. As far as I am concerned the Constitution was an experiment that failed.

Again, you're being a hypocrite. The very government and constitution you want to have the option of overthrowing if the need arises gives you the right to have that gun. How would you like it if there was no 2nd Amendment and you couldn't own a gun at all? If the Constitution is worthless why don't you move to another country? Or do you enjoy the freedoms it provides for you here when it's convenient for you?


 

Googer

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
12,571
4
81
Originally posted by: Ronstang
Originally posted by: CrackRabbit
Originally posted by: Ronstang
Originally posted by: JonnyStarks
Holy cow that looks like fun


It sure does. I have friends with licensed full auto weapons so I get to shoot them too and it really is a blast. I can tell you that what you see on TV is BS.....if I have a Mac 11 in my hand and you are within 30 yards you are 100% guarranteed to be dead or critically wounded if I am shooting at you....even from the hip. The movies make it look like a gun battle lasts a long time with full auto....no they don't.


But what would be the fun of watching gun battles that lasted 30 seconds.

More like 2 seconds. Trust me. I was surpised also. The targets were two poles about 18-24 inches apart and there were two sets of those that had about 20 feet between them. The poles were about 5 ft high. We fired from the hip, only squeezing the trigger once....which translates to 5-7 rounds. We were about 30 yards away and each time we put the bullets right between the two poles....then turned and fired a second burst throught the second set of pole....alternating until we were out of ammo. 35 rounds of 9mm in 5-7 pulls of the trigger and each pull would have killed a person standing between the poles. We were both novices with no prior experience on this weapon either.

Are you in the Military?
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: CFster
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Who ever said anything about invasion? Germany wasn't invaded when the Holocaust took place, was it?

Oh please.

Oh please what? Germany is a great example of a government gone amok in the 20th century.

'Take care of them' sounds alot like having the government put diapers and leashes on everyone.

If it means keeping guns away from irresponsible people then I'm all for it.

Wow, your delusions are now extremely comical to say the least.

Once again: I don't care about the Constitution and I don't care about the 2nd Amendment. As far as I am concerned the Constitution was an experiment that failed.

Again, you're being a hypocrite. The very government and constitution you want to have the option of overthrowing if the need arises gives you the right to have that gun.

The Constitution (and most certainly not the government) doesn't grant me my 'rights.' In fact, I'm skeptical of the whole 'rights' concept, but that is a different story.

How would you like it if there was no 2nd Amendment and you couldn't own a gun at all?

I don't think the 2nd Amendment keeps the government from taking my gun in the first place.

If the Constitution is worthless why don't you move to another country?

Why would I put my entire life on hold and move away because I don't believe in the Constitution?

Or do you enjoy the freedoms it provides for you here when it's convenient for you?

As I have already said, the Constitution does not grant anyone freedom. It is a document in a glass case. Freedom comes from a belief, not paper relics.

 

CFster

Golden Member
Oct 16, 1999
1,903
0
76
Oh please what? Germany is a great example of a government gone amok in the 20th century.

Nazi Germany was a great example of a dictatorship gone amok. Let's get our goverment types correct. There's a BIG difference. And the reason why I don't believe that could happen here.

The Constitution doesn't grant me my 'rights.' In fact, I'm skeptical of the whole 'rights' concept, but that is a different story.

So you would own a gun if it was illegal to do so?

As I have already said, the Constitution does not grant anyone freedom. It is a document in a glass case. Freedom comes from a belief, not paper relics.

Yes it's a belief. But to be put into practice there have to be laws to enforce it.

I don't think the 2nd Amendment keeps the government from taking my gun in the first place.

Well then what does? Becuase there's plenty of other governments out there that would be happy to take your gun away from you.

In some countries we could be jailed for saying the things that we're saying. We might believe our opinions are the correct ones, but the government might have their own idea.

If you were busted for your views you would be the first one to cite that we're granted freedom of speech. I know I would.

What would your reponse be if the cops came to your door and told you that you couldn't have your gun anymore?







 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: CFster
Oh please what? Germany is a great example of a government gone amok in the 20th century.

-Germany is a great example of a dictatorship gone amok. Let's get our goverment types correct.

Once again you show your ignorance of history. Germany was not a dictatorship. In fact, it had political parties and elections.

The Constitution doesn't grant me my 'rights.' In fact, I'm skeptical of the whole 'rights' concept, but that is a different story...

...I don't think the 2nd Amendment keeps the government from taking my gun in the first place.

So you would own a gun if it was illegal to do so?

Quite possibly, yes.

As I have already said, the Constitution does not grant anyone freedom. It is a document in a glass case. Freedom comes from a belief, not paper relics.

Yes it's a belief. But to be put into practice there have to be laws to enforce it.

Freedom can't be enforced by laws when the government the 'freedom laws' are supposed to bind enforces and interprets those very laws.

I don't think the 2nd Amendment keeps the government from taking my gun in the first place.

Well then what does? Becuase there's plenty of other governments out there that would be happy to take your gun away from you.

Popular opinion and the fact that millions of Americans own guns.

In some countries we could be jailed for saying the things that we're saying. We might believe our opinions are the correct ones, but the government might have their own idea.

America has some vestiges of freedom left, but people like you are trying to take them away. Keep up the good work. :thumbsup:

If you were busted for your views you would be the first one to cite that we're granted freedom of speech. I know I would.

Granted by whom? Rights are not 'granted.' If the Constitution disappered in a plume of smoke, would your rights suddenly disappear? This is nonesense.

What would your reponse be if the cops came to your door and told you that you couldn't have your gun anymore?

I would say: What gun? There aren't any guns here officer.

BTW, you could probably benefit greatly by reading this.
 

CFster

Golden Member
Oct 16, 1999
1,903
0
76
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Once again you show your ignorance of history. Germany was not a dictatorship. In fact, it had political parties and elections.

Um, not when Hitler was in power it didn't. And the sequence of events that allowed that to happen from a democracy couldn't happen here, under our Constitution.

Freedom can't be enforced by laws when the government the 'freedom laws' are supposed to bind enforces and interprets those very laws.

Huh?

Popular opinion and the fact that millions of Americans own guns.

That's a fvcking shame. You're absolutely right. If they changed the law now there's no way they could enforce it. So the killing continues.

America has some vestiges of freedom left, but people like you are trying to take them away. Keep up the good work. :thumbsup:

How do you figure? By pointing out that you have no regard for the document, the ideas, the laws that gave you the right to own that gun? They're one and the same you know.

You think you went down the store and bought that gun because your neighbor has one and you felt you could, or because a law makes it legal for the store to sell it to you? Do you own your gun legally? Do you have a license?

Granted by whom? Rights are not 'granted.' If the Constitution disappered in a plume of smoke, would your rights suddenly disappear? This is nonesense.

What the hell are you talking about? Things could have happened differently you know.

BTW, you could probably benefit greatly by reading this.

And you:

Militias Misinterpret The Constitution

The Second Amendment Myth & Meaning

Exploding The NRA's Constitutional Myth

The Right To Be Armed: A Constitutional Illusion

The Second Amendment In The Twentieth Century: Have You Seen Your Militia Lately?
 

CFster

Golden Member
Oct 16, 1999
1,903
0
76
Originally posted by: Dissipate
BTW, you could probably benefit greatly by reading this.

Yeah, I gather John Hasnas has a idealistic vision of a society governed by "order" instead of law.

That's great, in a perfect world. But it will never happen. He's basically asking a large group of people to come to a mutual agreement based on common sense alone. Well, as much as I'd love to believe it could work, (as the saying goes) one person is smart, many people are stupid.

And he's saying that most disputes would be settled at community level. Well, regardless of what level it's settled at, it's still a form of government. SOMEBODY has to enforce those decisions. To just expect people to play nicely isn't going to work. There will always be somebody who doesn't want to cooperate.

Who's going to enforce things? You with your gun?

I'm not going to argue with you over some guys hypothetical view of how our legal system should work. We have laws, enforced by government, and that's the way it is.

Now back to the real world.

I'll tell you what. Right now there are laws that say if can own that gun, how you can buy it and if you need a license to keep it. Those laws exist because of the Constitution. If you own that gun illegally, or shoot somebody with it - you'll have some answering to do.Just because you feel it's your God given right to have it wont save you either. Or some other belief that isn't inline with our Constitution.

That said, I don't like them. But I respect people's constitutional right to own them - however perverted it may be.

What I don't respect is some people's twisted reasoning, or interpretation of the law that allows them to do so.











 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: CFster
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Once again you show your ignorance of history. Germany was not a dictatorship. In fact, it had political parties and elections.

Um, not when Hitler was in power it didn't. And the sequence of events that allowed that to happen from a democracy couldn't happen here, under our Constitution.

Wow, that Constitution has some magical powers.

Freedom can't be enforced by laws when the government the 'freedom laws' are supposed to bind enforces and interprets those very laws.

Huh?

The Supreme court justices are picked by whom?

Popular opinion and the fact that millions of Americans own guns.

That's a fvcking shame. You're absolutely right. If they changed the law now there's no way they could enforce it. So the killing continues.

And so the 'killing' continues with cars every day as well.

America has some vestiges of freedom left, but people like you are trying to take them away. Keep up the good work. :thumbsup:

How do you figure? By pointing out that you have no regard for the document, the ideas, the laws that gave you the right to own that gun? They're one and the same you know.

Once again, you speak of delusions and illusions.

You think you went down the store and bought that gun because your neighbor has one and you felt you could, or because a law makes it legal for the store to sell it to you? Do you own your gun legally? Do you have a license?

Yes, it is 'legal,' if you define 'legal' to be what the politicians have 'legislated.' I don't need a license, because I don't carry it concealed. Like I said, it is almost always locked away in my closet.


Granted by whom? Rights are not 'granted.' If the Constitution disappered in a plume of smoke, would your rights suddenly disappear? This is nonesense.

What the hell are you talking about? Things could have happened differently you know.

Things could have happened differently...

........so profound!


BTW, you could probably benefit greatly by reading this.

And you:

Militias Misinterpret The Constitution

The Second Amendment Myth & Meaning

Exploding The NRA's Constitutional Myth

The Right To Be Armed: A Constitutional Illusion

The Second Amendment In The Twentieth Century: Have You Seen Your Militia Lately?

All of them are based on arguments over mythical/mystical beliefs in the 'rule of law.' I already know it will be a waste of my time reading them.

 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: CFster
Originally posted by: Dissipate
BTW, you could probably benefit greatly by reading this.

Yeah, I gather John Hasnas has a idealistic vision of a society governed by "order" instead of law.

That's great, in a perfect world. But it will never happen. He's basically asking a large group of people to come to a mutual agreement based on common sense alone. Well, as much as I'd love to believe it could work, (as the saying goes) one person is smart, many people are stupid.

And he's saying that most disputes would be settled at community level. Well, regardless of what level it's settled at, it's still a form of government. SOMEBODY has to enforce those decisions. To just expect people to play nicely isn't going to work. There will always be somebody who doesn't want to cooperate.

Who's going to enforce things? You with your gun?

I'm not going to argue with you over some guys hypothetical view of how our legal system should work. We have laws, enforced by government, and that's the way it is.

Regardless of what legal system he thinks we should have, the point is that 'laws' are whatever the government, or 'lawmakers'/judges want them to be. This renders them the opposite of what a 'law' is supposed to be. In the end it always just comes down to the law enforcer's opinion. The 'rule of law' is a myth, a fairy tale or a fable if you will. 'The rule of law' simply does not exist and never has. Hence, all this talk about the Constitution and this law and that law is meaningless babble. You can find laws and interpretations of laws that support any claim imaginable because a number of them contradict each other entirely.

Now back to the real world.

You should take your own advice. Look at the real world, nowhere will you find 'the rule of law.'

I'll tell you what. Right now there are laws that say if can own that gun, how you can buy it and if you need a license to keep it. Those laws exist because of the Constitution. If you own that gun illegally, or shoot somebody with it - you'll have some answering to do.Just because you feel it's your God given right to have it wont save you either. Or some other belief that isn't inline with our Constitution.

That said, I don't like them. But I respect people's constitutional right to own them - however perverted it may be.

What I don't respect is some people's twisted reasoning, or interpretation of the law that allows them to do so.

What allows or disallows people to own handguns has nothing to do with the 'law' or the Constitution. It simply has to do with whether or not the public wants people to be allowed to own or disallowed to own firearms. If the public wants to outlaw firearms, the government will make sure it finds a way to interpret the 'law' so that people are not allowed to own firearms, and vice-versa. Or actually a better way to put it would be to say that if the public was willing (but not necessarily support) to give up its firearms to the government, the government would definately find a way to interpret the 'law' to allow it to do so.

 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
This is a cut and paste from another thread I posted in...





I laugh at the moral elitists and self-appointed psychologists of the masses who so quickly lay down their arms and therefore their right to defend their freedom, all the while complaining about the people who assault their freedoms.

The gun grabbers complain loudly about the Patriot Act and how it infringes on their rights. They complain about the President who so craftily stole his position out from under it's rightful heir, John Kerry. The fact that Bush did so by using the very system which those same gun grabbers expect to save them from such shenanigans amuses to no end. The gun grabbers fail to see the paradox that they support. They say that guns cannot be used to defend freedom in this country, and that we should give up our arms and use the ballot box, while they proceed to whine about how Bush and his cronies in the Supreme Court and at Diebold were able to steal an election. If they believe their own conspiracy theories about the ease with which an election can be subverted, and they see no need for arms, how do they intend to rid themselves of Bush?

Finally, gun grabbers also like to talk about how armed conflict against the US government is impossible without missiles and jets. They chortle when speaking to "gun nuts" because a rifle can't stop a tank. Those same gun grabbers are many of the same people who fear the Iraqi insurgents, and want immediate withdrawal of our troops from Iraq. I don't understand how they could fear the insurgents, after all they're a bunch of people with rifles. Surely they can't stand up to US tanks and missiles. What are those insurgents thinking? They have no hope of changing US policy with their puny firearms, so they should just give up and lay down their guns.

What's sad is that gun grabbers who are otherwise intelligent don't seem able to grasp the fact that they're just as prone to doublethink as those they ridicule.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: BoberFett
This is a cut and paste from another thread I posted in...





I laugh at the moral elitists and self-appointed psychologists of the masses who so quickly lay down their arms and therefore their right to defend their freedom, all the while complaining about the people who assault their freedoms.

The gun grabbers complain loudly about the Patriot Act and how it infringes on their rights. They complain about the President who so craftily stole his position out from under it's rightful heir, John Kerry. The fact that Bush did so by using the very system which those same gun grabbers expect to save them from such shenanigans amuses to no end. The gun grabbers fail to see the paradox that they support. They say that guns cannot be used to defend freedom in this country, and that we should give up our arms and use the ballot box, while they proceed to whine about how Bush and his cronies in the Supreme Court and at Diebold were able to steal an election. If they believe their own conspiracy theories about the ease with which an election can be subverted, and they see no need for arms, how do they intend to rid themselves of Bush?

Finally, gun grabbers also like to talk about how armed conflict against the US government is impossible without missiles and jets. They chortle when speaking to "gun nuts" because a rifle can't stop a tank. Those same gun grabbers are many of the same people who fear the Iraqi insurgents, and want immediate withdrawal of our troops from Iraq. I don't understand how they could fear the insurgents, after all they're a bunch of people with rifles. Surely they can't stand up to US tanks and missiles. What are those insurgents thinking? They have no hope of changing US policy with their puny firearms, so they should just give up and lay down their guns.

What's sad is that gun grabbers who are otherwise intelligent don't seem able to grasp the fact that they're just as prone to doublethink as those they ridicule.

Good one. :thumbsup:
 

Blazin Trav

Banned
Dec 14, 2004
2,571
0
0
Originally posted by: Ronstang
Originally posted by: CrackRabbit
Originally posted by: Ronstang
Originally posted by: JonnyStarks
Holy cow that looks like fun


It sure does. I have friends with licensed full auto weapons so I get to shoot them too and it really is a blast. I can tell you that what you see on TV is BS.....if I have a Mac 11 in my hand and you are within 30 yards you are 100% guarranteed to be dead or critically wounded if I am shooting at you....even from the hip. The movies make it look like a gun battle lasts a long time with full auto....no they don't.

I'm more impressed with the guy that holds the record for a six shooter, and reloads. He could take you out in one shot, not even a second spent.

But what would be the fun of watching gun battles that lasted 30 seconds.

More like 2 seconds. Trust me. I was surpised also. The targets were two poles about 18-24 inches apart and there were two sets of those that had about 20 feet between them. The poles were about 5 ft high. We fired from the hip, only squeezing the trigger once....which translates to 5-7 rounds. We were about 30 yards away and each time we put the bullets right between the two poles....then turned and fired a second burst throught the second set of pole....alternating until we were out of ammo. 35 rounds of 9mm in 5-7 pulls of the trigger and each pull would have killed a person standing between the poles. We were both novices with no prior experience on this weapon either.

 

CFster

Golden Member
Oct 16, 1999
1,903
0
76
Originally posted by: Dissipate
The Supreme court justices are picked by whom?

The President. Who is elected into office by the people. What's your point.

And so the 'killing' continues with cars every day as well.

That's moronic. The difference is one's an accident. And a mode of transportation. A gun has only one purpose.

We try to make cars safe, by instituting speed limits, and safety features. We also try to make guns safe, by having safety locks and waiting periods at purchase.

The difference is nobody is opposed to putting airbags in cars.

Yes, it is 'legal,' if you define 'legal' to be what the politicians have 'legislated.' I don't need a license, because I don't carry it concealed. Like I said, it is almost always locked away in my closet.

And if you did carry it concealed, would you get a license? Why?

Regardless of what legal system he thinks we should have, the point is that 'laws' are whatever the government, or 'lawmakers'/judges want them to be. This renders them the opposite of what a 'law' is supposed to be. In the end it always just comes down to the law enforcer's opinion. The 'rule of law' is a myth, a fairy tale or a fable if you will. 'The rule of law' simply does not exist and never has. Hence, all this talk about the Constitution and this law and that law is meaningless babble. You can find laws and interpretations of laws that support any claim imaginable because a number of them contradict each other entirely.

Any law is open to interpretation by a judge or jury, or risks being overthrown. It's even up to the police officer to decide if you were really speeding before he pulls you over. There are no absolutes.

Thinking I'm going to perform an illegal act on the assumption that I might not get busted is a dangerous way of living.

You should take your own advice. Look at the real world, nowhere will you find 'the rule of law.

I have no idea what that means.

What allows or disallows people to own handguns has nothing to do with the 'law' or the Constitution. It simply has to do with whether or not the public wants people to be allowed to own or disallowed to own firearms. If the public wants to outlaw firearms, the government will make sure it finds a way to interpret the 'law' so that people are not allowed to own firearms, and vice-versa. Or actually a better way to put it would be to say that if the public was willing (but not necessarily support) to give up its firearms to the government, the government would definately find a way to interpret the 'law' to allow it to do so.

You just have a concept of government that suits you. That's fine.

IMO, if there wasn't the threat of legal recourse under any government, a lot more sh1t would go down. Interpret it any way you want - there are consequences for any action.

Do you believe people should own assault weapons?
 

CFster

Golden Member
Oct 16, 1999
1,903
0
76
Originally posted by: BoberFett
This is a cut and paste from another thread I posted in...

I laugh at the moral elitists and self-appointed psychologists of the masses who so quickly lay down their arms and therefore their right to defend their freedom, all the while complaining about the people who assault their freedoms.

I think he's got that backwards. It's the people in that video that are afraid they're going to lose their freedom. I'm not worried, that's why I don't own a gun.

And believe me, I don't feel any safer knowing bubba has a machine gun.

The gun grabbers complain loudly about the Patriot Act and how it infringes on their rights. They complain about the President who so craftily stole his position out from under it's rightful heir, John Kerry. The fact that Bush did so by using the very system which those same gun grabbers expect to save them from such shenanigans amuses to no end. The gun grabbers fail to see the paradox that they support. They say that guns cannot be used to defend freedom in this country, and that we should give up our arms and use the ballot box, while they proceed to whine about how Bush and his cronies in the Supreme Court and at Diebold were able to steal an election. If they believe their own conspiracy theories about the ease with which an election can be subverted, and they see no need for arms, how do they intend to rid themselves of Bush?

What's your solution? We liberals should have stormed the White House, demanding a new President?

No, I believe in the system, I just don't have faith in the populace as a whole. It came as no surprise that Bush was elected. Though I suppose a lot of those voters are sorry now.

Finally, gun grabbers also like to talk about how armed conflict against the US government is impossible without missiles and jets. They chortle when speaking to "gun nuts" because a rifle can't stop a tank. Those same gun grabbers are many of the same people who fear the Iraqi insurgents, and want immediate withdrawal of our troops from Iraq. I don't understand how they could fear the insurgents, after all they're a bunch of people with rifles. Surely they can't stand up to US tanks and missiles. What are those insurgents thinking? They have no hope of changing US policy with their puny firearms, so they should just give up and lay down their guns.

You're saying it could happen here? When do you plan to start your revolution?

The only plan those insurgents have is religious fanaticism. There is NO WAY we're going to change that - we're simply wasting our time there.







 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: CFster
Originally posted by: Dissipate
The Supreme court justices are picked by whom?

The President. Who is elected into office by the people. What's your point.

Public choice theory and empirical results have shown that voting is a very poor check against government power.

And so the 'killing' continues with cars every day as well.

That's moronic. The difference is one's an accident. And a mode of transportation. A gun has only one purpose.

A gun and a car are both tools and can both be used for destructive purposes. That doesn't mean we should ban them. A gun can have a multitude of purposes. Sport/hobby and protection are the main 2 that come to mind.

We try to make cars safe, by instituting speed limits, and safety features. We also try to make guns safe, by having safety locks and waiting periods at purchase.

Waiting periods make guns safe? You really are deluded. LMAO.

The difference is nobody is opposed to putting airbags in cars.

Consumers want airbags in their cars, and I would say the vast majority of gun owners have locks on their guns (of some sort). Legislating locks for guns won't make a damn bit of difference if a gun owner doesn't want a lock on their gun.

Yes, it is 'legal,' if you define 'legal' to be what the politicians have 'legislated.' I don't need a license, because I don't carry it concealed. Like I said, it is almost always locked away in my closet.

And if you did carry it concealed, would you get a license? Why?

No, I probably wouldn't. My dad carried a handgun concealed 'illegally' for awhile because he got death threats from one of his clients. Unlike wealthy gun grabbing politicians, he couldn't afford 'licensed' body guards or the time to go through bureaucratic bullsh!t. The cops sure as hell weren't going to protect him either.


Regardless of what legal system he thinks we should have, the point is that 'laws' are whatever the government, or 'lawmakers'/judges want them to be. This renders them the opposite of what a 'law' is supposed to be. In the end it always just comes down to the law enforcer's opinion. The 'rule of law' is a myth, a fairy tale or a fable if you will. 'The rule of law' simply does not exist and never has. Hence, all this talk about the Constitution and this law and that law is meaningless babble. You can find laws and interpretations of laws that support any claim imaginable because a number of them contradict each other entirely.

Any law is open to interpretation by a judge or jury, or risks being overthrown. It's even up to the police officer to decide if you were really speeding before he pulls you over. There are no absolutes.

You are catching on.

Thinking I'm going to perform an illegal act on the assumption that I might not get busted is a dangerous way of living.

Suit yourself.

You should take your own advice. Look at the real world, nowhere will you find 'the rule of law.

I have no idea what that means.

And I have no idea what this 'rule of law' you keep babbling about means.

What allows or disallows people to own handguns has nothing to do with the 'law' or the Constitution. It simply has to do with whether or not the public wants people to be allowed to own or disallowed to own firearms. If the public wants to outlaw firearms, the government will make sure it finds a way to interpret the 'law' so that people are not allowed to own firearms, and vice-versa. Or actually a better way to put it would be to say that if the public was willing (but not necessarily support) to give up its firearms to the government, the government would definately find a way to interpret the 'law' to allow it to do so.

You just have a concept of government that suits you. That's fine.

IMO, if there wasn't the threat of legal recourse under any government, a lot more sh1t would go down.

Right, because civilized society is some artificial construct enforced by the politicians. Without our beloved social engineers everything would just go to sh!t. :roll:

Interpret it any way you want - there are consequences for any action.

Do you believe people should own assault weapons?

Yep. If the military can own it, good willed citizens should be allowed to own it (when it comes to firearms).
 
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