Live the lie, fight the truth...

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I think the point I was trying to make is that we had no acts of terror from the Japanese on our mainland during WW2. Except of course for the hot air incendary bombs they sent over in the jet stream.

How much would we have lost if we lost the war?? EVERYTHING!! Now the Japanese are one of our best allies. Go figure. The interened japs lost a lot of freedom and time, but I think our goverment did the right thing for the majority of it's citizens. Perhaps it's unfortunate that a group of high risk people can be so easily identified, but it would have been remiss of us not to take advatage of it.

To try to compare slavery to being detained is, at best, a gross exaggeration. I also don't see how it relates to segregation (which was a regional problem) or the civil war which freed the slaves?


My main point is that the Muslims in this country will just have to suck it up for a bit and put up with being detained. It's not like our young men and women fighting this war don't have to suck it up a bit. Their ass is on the line, not yours. Try thinking of the best way to get them home ASAP and quit worrying about a few detainees. We need to get this war OVER!!!!! I'm for anything short of nukes that will speed the end of this insane war on terrorism. We don't live in a perfect world and we didn't start the fire.

You still didn't answer my request for figures. You're attributing the lack of mainland sabotage/terrorist actions to the internments when in fact you've established no such link. Give me figures on the numbers of spies detained and imprisoned and we'll talk.

The interned Japanese families didn't just lose time and freedom, as you call it. Many families lost everything they had, ancestral possessions, businesses, homes, and land. That is not a minor inconvenience and it is an action that our government should be loathe to commit.

Our troops will not be coming home for some time. By going into Iraq we've opened up a hornet's nest and only bolstered Al Queda's cause. We've seen an insurgency take root that the warplanners in the Bush administration apparently didn't see fit to plan for.

On that note, has it ever occurred to you to wonder why we attacked Iraq when our friend Mr. Bin Laden is in Pakistan?

Has it ever occurred to you that terrorism (a less incendiary, related term is asymmetric warfare) is a tactic? A tactic, an idea, a strategic move cannot be eradicated any more than an ideology can. It's a tactic used when one side in a conflict doesn't possess the military might or ability to take on an adversary head-on. It's common throughout history, in all conflicts. To think any differently is ignorance.

I never meant to compare internment to slavery, merely giving examples of when a certain standard of government misconduct was at the time considered moral, rational, and/or necessary.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I think the point I was trying to make is that we had no acts of terror from the Japanese on our mainland during WW2. Except of course for the hot air incendary bombs they sent over in the jet stream.

How much would we have lost if we lost the war?? EVERYTHING!! Now the Japanese are one of our best allies. Go figure. The interened japs lost a lot of freedom and time, but I think our goverment did the right thing for the majority of it's citizens. Perhaps it's unfortunate that a group of high risk people can be so easily identified, but it would have been remiss of us not to take advatage of it.

It can be argued that the USA with all its lofty ideals is the only country to ever actually nuke someone. We killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people when we did that. Why? To save thousands of our young men. I think Truman made the right choice about that and I will defend it also.

To try to compare slavery to being detained is, at best, a gross exaggeration. I also don't see how it relates to segregation (which was a regional problem) or the civil war which freed the slaves?


My main point is that the Muslims in this country will just have to suck it up for a bit and put up with being detained. It's not like our young men and women fighting this war don't have to suck it up a bit. Their ass is on the line, not yours. Try thinking of the best way to get them home ASAP and quit worrying about a few detainees. We need to get this war OVER!!!!! I'm for anything short of nukes that will speed the end of this insane war on terrorism. Grow up. We don't live in a perfect world and we didn't start the fire.

I think Klixxer did put his ass on the line in this war. I also think that you're missing the entire point: if we sacrifice the ideals that make us who we are, then we have already lost the war. This isn't a nation-versus-nation war, it's idealism-versus-idealism.

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: Orsorum

You still didn't answer my request for figures. You're attributing the lack of mainland sabotage/terrorist actions to the internments when in fact you've established no such link. Give me figures on the numbers of spies detained and imprisoned and we'll talk.

In Michelle Malkin's highly controversial book, "In Defense of Internment: The Case for 'Racial Profiling' in World War II and the War on Terror", she provides evidence of subversive Japanese.

By the way, most of her detractors - usually idiotic, leftist academic types - question not the historical accuracy of her work, but rather the ideological ramifications.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I think the point I was trying to make is that we had no acts of terror from the Japanese on our mainland during WW2. Except of course for the hot air incendary bombs they sent over in the jet stream.

How much would we have lost if we lost the war?? EVERYTHING!! Now the Japanese are one of our best allies. Go figure. The interened japs lost a lot of freedom and time, but I think our goverment did the right thing for the majority of it's citizens. Perhaps it's unfortunate that a group of high risk people can be so easily identified, but it would have been remiss of us not to take advatage of it.

To try to compare slavery to being detained is, at best, a gross exaggeration. I also don't see how it relates to segregation (which was a regional problem) or the civil war which freed the slaves?


My main point is that the Muslims in this country will just have to suck it up for a bit and put up with being detained. It's not like our young men and women fighting this war don't have to suck it up a bit. Their ass is on the line, not yours. Try thinking of the best way to get them home ASAP and quit worrying about a few detainees. We need to get this war OVER!!!!! I'm for anything short of nukes that will speed the end of this insane war on terrorism. We don't live in a perfect world and we didn't start the fire.

You still didn't answer my request for figures. You're attributing the lack of mainland sabotage/terrorist actions to the internments when in fact you've established no such link. Give me figures on the numbers of spies detained and imprisoned and we'll talk.

The interned Japanese families didn't just lose time and freedom, as you call it. Many families lost everything they had, ancestral possessions, businesses, homes, and land. That is not a minor inconvenience and it is an action that our government should be loathe to commit.

Our troops will not be coming home for some time, you realize that? By going into Iraq we've opened up a hornet's nest and only bolstered Al Queda's cause. We've seen an insurgency take root that the warplanners in the Bush administration apparently didn't see fit to plan for. We will be feeling the effects of our aggression for years.

On that note, has it ever occurred to you to wonder why we attacked Iraq when our friend Mr. Bin Laden is in Pakistan?

Has it ever occurred to you that terrorism (a less incendiary, related term is asymmetric warfare) is a tactic? A tactic, an idea, a strategic move cannot be eradicated any more than an ideology can. It's a tactic used when one side in a conflict doesn't possess the military might or ability to take on an adversary head-on. It's common throughout history, in all conflicts. To think any differently is ignorance.

I realize that we need to get our troops home ASAP because we have opened a can of worms that never should have been opened. I never have been for the invasion or for GWB. Guess what, GWB won the election and like it or not we're stuck with him for 4 more years. Now we have to make the best of it. The qwuestion is how to do that.

I say give them what they say they need to end the conflict and see if it will get OUR troops home faster. You seem to think I'm ignorant. Well, maybe I am, but I have my own way of doing things. If we give GWB everything he and his people say they need to win the war, then let's do it. If it doesn't work it's on his ass and everyone who voted him back in. I see no other viable option except moaning and whining and crying in our beer which won't change/help a darn thing. We have another election in 2 years it we haven't extracted our troops by then, maybe enough people will see through the BS and we can send a message to our rulers at the voting booth.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: Klixxer


I am an old tired soldier who has spent his entire life fighting so that others can benefit, if my death would mean a better world for my children, then i have no problem with dying.

How many years have you been a soldier, Klixxer?

I originally come from Finland and served in the Finnish army when i was 17-18, why? is it imprtant? Is it in ANY way relevant to this thread?

Finnland has required military service for males, doesn't it?

I thought it began at 18.

So, which command were you in?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I think the point I was trying to make is that we had no acts of terror from the Japanese on our mainland during WW2. Except of course for the hot air incendary bombs they sent over in the jet stream.

How much would we have lost if we lost the war?? EVERYTHING!! Now the Japanese are one of our best allies. Go figure. The interened japs lost a lot of freedom and time, but I think our goverment did the right thing for the majority of it's citizens. Perhaps it's unfortunate that a group of high risk people can be so easily identified, but it would have been remiss of us not to take advatage of it.

It can be argued that the USA with all its lofty ideals is the only country to ever actually nuke someone. We killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people when we did that. Why? To save thousands of our young men. I think Truman made the right choice about that and I will defend it also.

To try to compare slavery to being detained is, at best, a gross exaggeration. I also don't see how it relates to segregation (which was a regional problem) or the civil war which freed the slaves?


My main point is that the Muslims in this country will just have to suck it up for a bit and put up with being detained. It's not like our young men and women fighting this war don't have to suck it up a bit. Their ass is on the line, not yours. Try thinking of the best way to get them home ASAP and quit worrying about a few detainees. We need to get this war OVER!!!!! I'm for anything short of nukes that will speed the end of this insane war on terrorism. Grow up. We don't live in a perfect world and we didn't start the fire.

I think Klixxer did put his ass on the line in this war. I also think that you're missing the entire point: if we sacrifice the ideals that make us who we are, then we have already lost the war. This isn't a nation-versus-nation war, it's idealism-versus-idealism.

I have never doubted that Klixxer has served in the military but that isn't the issue. Idealism is great, but survival is better. I don't see how either side can prove anything in this war except that we have lots of bombs and they have lots of hiding places. We have no goals except to make Iraq a democracy?? If GWB would have stated that as our goal at the outset we wouldn't be in this mess because he wouldn't have gotten the support for this insane war in the first place.

That's all water under the bridge now. The question is what do we do from here. I say we do everything we can to get our troops home as fast and as safely as we can. I'm a hard ass about things like this. We have people getting killed every day while we argue about ideals. Does that make sense? It doesn't to me. Peoples rights get trampled on all the time and I feel it's more important to do what we can to end this insanity ASAP. This terrorism is like copycat crimes. One hits the news and the next thing you know every kook wants to do it. I'm scared to death that something big is going to happen that results in a REAL war.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I have never doubted that Klixxer has served in the military but that isn't the issue. Idealism is great, but survival is better. I don't see how either side can prove anything in this war except that we have lots of bombs and they have lots of hiding places. We have no goals except to make Iraq a democracy?? If GWB would have stated that as our goal at the outset we wouldn't be in this mess because he wouldn't have gotten the support for this insane war in the first place.

That's all water under the bridge now. The question is what do we do from here. I say we do everything we can to get our troops home as fast and as safely as we can. I'm a hard ass about things like this. We have people getting killed every day while we argue about ideals. Does that make sense? It doesn't to me. Peoples rights get trampled on all the time and I feel it's more important to do what we can to end this insanity ASAP. This terrorism is like copycat crimes. One hits the news and the next thing you know every kook wants to do it. I'm scared to death that something big is going to happen that results in a REAL war.

OK, I'm seeing a great discontinuity here: how will interning middle easterners in the US help us get out of Iraq faster/with less deaths?

 

[1EZduzit]

Have you read all my posts?

I am defending racial profiling as a way to help end this conflict.

I also will say that the Iraqi's being held at Guantonemo are nothing more then POW's in an undeclared war. If it was a declared war, that is exactly what they would be called.

It's easy to start a war , it's another matter to finish it. If GWB had ever actually been in one, he would have known that.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Have you read all my posts?

I am defending racial profiling as a way to help end this conflict.

I also will say that the Iraqi's being help at Guantonemo are nothing more then POW's in an undeclared war. If it was a declared war, that is exactly what they would be called.

It's easy to start a war , it's another matter to finish it.

I've read all your posts and have yet to see any mention of how interning people in the US could possibly make a difference in Iraq. If anything, it seems to me that it would piss off a lot more people in Iraq and cause them to rise up against us.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Have you read all my posts?

I am defending racial profiling as a way to help end this conflict.

I also will say that the Iraqi's being help at Guantonemo are nothing more then POW's in an undeclared war. If it was a declared war, that is exactly what they would be called.

It's easy to start a war , it's another matter to finish it.

I've read all your posts and have yet to see any mention of how interning people in the US could possibly make a difference in Iraq. If anything, it seems to me that it would piss off a lot more people in Iraq and cause them to rise up against us.

I'm confused. I am talking about detaining people going through customs based on their race. I'm talking about using racial profiling to help concentrate our efforts to prevent terrorism by putting high risk groups under the magnifying glass.

The only people actually interened are those at the base in Quantonemo (sp?) who I consider to be POW's.

The only other interment I refered to is what we did to the Japanese-Americans during WW2 (as an example) and how everyone got over it and now Japan is one of our biggest allies.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I'm confused. I am talking about detaining people going through customs based on their race. I'm talking about using racial profiling to help concentrate our efforts to prevent terrorism by putting high risk groups under the magnifying glass.

The only people actually interened are those at the base in Quantonemo (sp?) who I consider to be POW's.

The only other interment I refered to is what we did to the Japanese-Americans during WW2 (as an example) and how everyone got over it and now Japan is one of our biggest allies.

I'm confused. How will detaining people that are 'high-risk' help our troops in Iraq? Simple question.

edit: I thought I'd throw this out there as well. It's Merriam-Webster's definition for 'justice.'

1 a : the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments b : JUDGE c : the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity
2 a : the quality of being just, impartial, or fair b (1) : the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2) : conformity to this principle or ideal : RIGHTEOUSNESS c : the quality of conforming to law
3 : conformity to truth, fact, or reason : CORRECTNESS

Justice is not served by detaining people based on race, nor is it served in Gitmo by holding hundreds without trial. As I have said numerous times before, I would rather have everyone from Gitmo freed on the streets of the USA than have any one of them be wrongfully imprisoned for one day.

 

[1EZduzit]

Simple question, but hard to answer As I said, I'm a hard ass about things like this. I'm sure you've heard the old saying:

"For want of a nail, a shoe was lost, For want of a shoe, a horse was lost, For want of a horse, a man was lost, For want of a man, a battle was lost, For want of a battle, a war was lost."

Our troops, who are in harms way, deserve and need every advantage we can give them. If we have to detain, or even intern someone who might (or might not) have information that may help them, then I think we have a moral obligation to do so. If you don't agree, that is your choice. I know you supported Bush and the war, and I really don't see how you think it should be any other way??

You go tell the dead soldier's widow and kids that we could have saved your husband/father but we didn't want to detain this "person" because we might trample his rights a little and otherwise inconvience him.

It seems to me there are a lot of people here who have absolutley no concept of what war is?? Those boys are playing for all their marbles, every minute of every day. Even when their sleeping their at risk. It's not a game, they have nothing to gain over there. All they want to do is survive long enough to get home. We need to do everything we reasonably can to help them make it home.

If we step on a few toes doing that, tough shiit!!

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard


edit: I thought I'd throw this out there as well. It's Merriam-Webster's definition for 'justice.'

1 a : the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments b : JUDGE c : the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity
2 a : the quality of being just, impartial, or fair b (1) : the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2) : conformity to this principle or ideal : RIGHTEOUSNESS c : the quality of conforming to law
3 : conformity to truth, fact, or reason : CORRECTNESS

Justice is not served by detaining people based on race, nor is it served in Gitmo by holding hundreds without trial. As I have said numerous times before, I would rather have everyone from Gitmo freed on the streets of the USA than have any one of them be wrongfully imprisoned for one day.

And just what do you think justice has to do with war? Justice is for peacetime, not when we have troops being shot at, bombed, and beheaded! I find it rather amusing you talk of justice during a war where we invaded a soverign country.

War is about survival, and to survive you have to shoot first and ask questions later. It seems to me you walk the walk, and talk the talk, but when push comes to shove you want to talk about justice??

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Simple question, but hard to answer As I said, I'm a hard ass about things like this. I'm sure you've heard the old saying:

"For want of a nail, a shoe was lost, For want of a shoe, a horse was lost, For want of a horse, a man was lost, For want of a man, a battle was lost, For want of a battle, a war was lost."

Our troops, who are in harms way, deserve and need every advantage we can give them. If we have to detain, or even intern someone who might (or might not) have information that may help them, then I think we have a moral obligation to do so. If you don't agree, that is your choice. I know you supported Bush and the war, and I really don't see how you think it should be any other way??

You go tell the dead soldier's widow and kids that we could have saved your husband/father but we didn't want to detain this "person" because we might trample his rights a little and otherwise inconvience him.

It seems to me there are a lot of people here who have absolutley no concept of what war is?? Those boys are playing for all their marbles, every minute of every day. Even when their sleeping their at risk. It's not a game, they have nothing to gain over there. All they want to do is survive long enough to get home. We need to do everything we reasonably can to help them make it home.

If we step on a few toes doing that, tough shiit!!

I understand WHY you think that we should do it, but I really can't see how it would possibly help the war effort. Do you think ME's (tired of typing middle easterners, hope no one gets offended ) are somehow spying over here and finding out the war plan? I really just can't get a handle on any way that this internment would possibly help our cause.

I am well aware of what is at risk in Iraq and in Afghanistan. Currently, my best friend, two other good friends, five members of my high school soccer team, a brother, and three cousins are deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan. I have friends and acquaintances that have been wounded in both places as well. I would give them every advantage that we can with the overriding principle that justice be served. If it is not, then we are no better than the terrorists that we claim to be so staunchly opposing. You would so readily discard justice when you are not the subject of that deprivation. Tell me, would you plead for justice if we were being invaded? What if you lived in the ME and were detained indefinitely for being white? You cannot tell me with any degree of honesty that you would feel ok about it in this situation. In short, the end does NOT justify the means in this case, nor can it ever when the means are contrary to justice.

 

[1EZduzit]

I thought I made clear the WHY of my thinking. We might be able to stop another terrorist attack by ME terrorists in the USA or against our bases troops at other places in the world and I'm afraid of what would happen. I think we could easily end up in a REAL war.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I thought I made clear the WHY of my thinking. We might be able to stop another terrorist attack by ME terrorists in the USA or against our bases troops at other places in the world and I'm afraid of what would happen. I think we could easily end up in a REAL war.

Well, I could just as easily blow up a mall here in St. Louis tomorrow after my last final (hopefully it won't go that badly, though it likely will ), but that doesn't mean that I should be arrested. If we have credible evidence that someone is going to do something, then they should be arrested. If not, they should not be. That is the entire basis for the rule of law, correct?

 

[Zebo]

Let me remind you that one of Hitlers biggest proclamations was
Chrisians superiority.

Then how did about 3 million catholics end up in concentration camps?

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Let me remind you that one of Hitlers biggest proclamations was
Chrisians superiority.

Then how did about 3 million catholics end up in concentration camps?

Many Christians don't really think that Catholics are real Christians.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

I am well aware of what is at risk in Iraq and in Afghanistan. Currently, my best friend, two other good friends, five members of my high school soccer team, a brother, and three cousins are deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan. I have friends and acquaintances that have been wounded in both places as well. I would give them every advantage that we can with the overriding principle that justice be served. If it is not, then we are no better than the terrorists that we claim to be so staunchly opposing. You would so readily discard justice when you are not the subject of that deprivation. Tell me, would you plead for justice if we were being invaded? What if you lived in the ME and were detained indefinitely for being white? You cannot tell me with any degree of honesty that you would feel ok about it in this situation. In short, the end does NOT justify the means in this case, nor can it ever when the means are contrary to justice.

You have a lot of what if's there. I already think we are no better then the terrorists, we invaded their country and bombed them back into the stone age. How many innocents have we killed?? Isn't it a little late to worry about justice now??

The end never justifies the means. Then why did we invade them in the first place? We never found any WMD's. I don't believe that they will ever have a fair election, at least while we occupy the country. I highly doubt that we can create a lasting democracy, so don't lecture me about justice. I was against this war from the get-go but GWB has prevailed and now all I want is to end it ASAP by any (almost) means possible.

I'm just a man of extremes. With me its an everything or nothing mentality. If it's worth doing then it's worth doing right and to me that means with the least loss of US soldiers possible.

BTW, my son has 5 classmates over there (whom I know very well from his hockey team) and I have a brother-in-law whose younger brother is doing his second tour as a medic (who are in short supply) and the nusband of a friend doing a second tour as a medic (his first was as an MP).

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I thought I made clear the WHY of my thinking. We might be able to stop another terrorist attack by ME terrorists in the USA or against our bases troops at other places in the world and I'm afraid of what would happen. I think we could easily end up in a REAL war.

Well, I could just as easily blow up a mall here in St. Louis tomorrow after my last final (hopefully it won't go that badly, though it likely will ), but that doesn't mean that I should be arrested. If we have credible evidence that someone is going to do something, then they should be arrested. If not, they should not be. That is the entire basis for the rule of law, correct?

Let a ME terrorist blow up the Mall of America and see what happens. BTW, being arrested is not the same as being detained.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Zebo

Let me remind you that one of Hitlers biggest proclamations was
Chrisians superiority.

Then how did about 3 million catholics end up in concentration camps?

Many Christians don't really think that Catholics are real Christians.

WTF? Are you serious? pleaseexplain that one. They've been around as Christians for 1600 more years than protestants.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
You have a lot of what if's there. I already think we are no better then the terrorists, we invaded their country and bombed them back into the stone age. How many innocents have we killed?? Isn't it a little late to worry about justice now??

You're suggesting that since we already screwed up, we might as well keep screwing up, regardless of who gets screwed? On the one hand, you feign interest in the deaths of innocent Iraqis while on the other you would cast aside the rights of any MEs that live in the US. Are they more human in Iraq than in the US?

The end never justifies the means. Then why did we invade them in the first place? We never found any WMD's. I don't believe that they will ever have a fair election, at least while we occupy the country. I highly doubt that we can create a lasting democracy, so don't lecture me about justice. I was against this war from the get-go but GWB has prevailed and now all I want is to end it ASAP by any (almost) means possible.

I didn't say the end never justifies the means. Though war is never a desirable means to achieve any end, it is sometimes necessary. I'm not arguing whether or not the war in Iraq was just. I also don't see why you throw 'don't lecture me about justice' in the middle of some other rant that is completely unrelated to the topic at hand. I can't see how detaining MEs would accomplish anything with respect to Iraq other than pissing off more Iraqis and foreign fighters and causing the deaths of more troops. If you disagree, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Let a ME terrorist blow up the Mall of America and see what happens. BTW, being arrested is not the same as being detained.

My point is that anyone could do it. You're assuming that only an ME would do it and, since there might be one or ten psychos that fit that description nationwide, you'd screw over the entire ME population.

Being arrested and detained are one and the same for the purposes of this discussion. If the police have no evidence that I am planning on bombing something and they detain/arrest me anyway, what's the difference? The constitution is violated, regardless of the name you want to attach to the action. I've been 'detained' by police before (long story - mixup of driver's license numbers) - maybe that's why I understand the gravity of the situation. If you get taken away by the police when you did nothing, there is no worse feeling in the world. I don't think I can give a description that would do it justice, but if you experienced it, you would know what it's like to feel violated. If you think that it's ok to treat people that way so you can feel a little safer, then I don't know what else to say.

Originally posted by: Zebo
WTF? Are you serious? pleaseexplain that one. They've been around as Christians for 1600 more years than protestants.

Many non-Catholic Christians that I know say that all Catholics are going to hell, can't be saved, and so on. I can't necessarily explain it (I am Catholic), but there's definitely an animosity against Catholics by fundamentalist Christians, possibly since Catholics don't apply literal translation to the Bible.

 

[mossad]

This is my 2 cents.

I HATE BUSH.

I believe he stole the 2000 elections (seen video of friends basicaly saying they did)

I believe he stole this election ( quite a spectacular debucale really I saw it happening)

I believe the war in Iraq was a lie (more than enough proof for me)

I believe his grandfather is one who had a non deniable part ( and verry important) in bringing the Nazi party to power by industrializing germany and shelling HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS into the the company (FG FURBEN < something liek that) who ran auschawitz and 39 other concentration camps

I believe 9-11 was the best thing ever to happen to Dubya

I believe he is a wolf in sheeps clothing

I believe the christian right is iether a bunch of devil worshipers or they will be severly unhappy with what is comming.

I do not believe the people pushing the Christian Rights agendas are Christians, I believe (for lack of better word) they are the anti christs

I believe that the people lobbying for this stuff are extreme bigots

I believe in Gays rights to live........ Together

I believe this country is nazifying itself perhaps being called the christian right or something other than nazi party.

I believe you are brainwashed sheep and I hate you for what your doing to my country.

Keep listening to your news they will keep you informed. That nothing has happend in the election this year (it went without a hitch right) and anyone saying it did was a conspiricist. Funny though how your election machines are republican owned. As is the media. As is the Administration. As is the same companies steeling your money. As is the same companies who toxify your land. As is the same companies who did buissuiness with saddam. As is the same companies who decided to out saddam. As is the same companies who are taking your rights. As is the same republicans who are selling you out. As is your screwed. As in the same ones who ran/built/counted your voting machines. Your screwed already. your democracy is gone becuase you cant even vote no more. to make it worse the patriot acts are calling you a terrorist and taking away your rights.

but hey whos complaining you voted for your morals right? If god was that cruel id tell him to go f himself. I grew up thinking these where things worth going to war and fighting over. Not lies. Oh well guess i was wrong.

Perhaps when your on your last quart of blood bleeding to death from the anal invasion you have recieved by the god appointed president you might be able to chew through your restraints to get down on your knees to pray for god to help you before you die. But i doubt it cause your already blind. Your blood runs thick, All over the iraqis. Next it will overflow onto the iranians (by this time your unwilling child will be drafted)

If he makes it because what your president is doing is encouraging terrorism. the world is not safer now that we got saddam. If you think it is then you have already lost. I iwll pray for your son if he does go to iran, that is if he is not killed in the (fatherland ---> new USA) by someone trying to liberate us from hitler er i mean dubya.

PS Your screwed. Why cant you see? 50% of Americans do as do 99% of the world. If you dont believe that then........... Your screwed.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: mossad
This is my 2 cents.

I HATE BUSH.
...

You could just come out and say 'I hate anyone who disagrees with me' and save yourself a lot of typing. I agree with several of your points, but your presentation leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[RealityTime]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: mossad
This is my 2 cents.

I HATE BUSH.
...

You could just come out and say 'I hate anyone who disagrees with me' and save yourself a lot of typing. I agree with several of your points, but your presentation leaves a lot to be desired.

Agreed. Much of what has been said is self-evident truth about the lies and hidden motives of the current usa government. But to approach the topic in such a ....... aggressive sort of way, is not going to work. These halfwits and boobs who believe the baldfaced lies coming from the bush administration, just wait in earnest for this sort of thing. When you are trying to defend such an obvious pack of monsters, you really are left with the only option of seizing on the mistakes and over-zealousness of people outraged by the current situation, when trying to come up with anything that is even barely sensible to say to defend bush and his cronies. If you'll notice, most people who try to justify bush's mad crusade and defend it here, basicly just carry on with personal attacks and crap about 'liberals'. No matter how hard it is to see the disgrace that is the usa government, you can't allow yourself to degenerate to their level of arrogance. Yes he lied, yes his past and current ties are fact and the knowledge and proof is there for anyone who wants to, to see it. Patience is a virtue. History has proven time and again, that abusive, dangerous men, always eventually fall. God willling the usa does not fall into the abyss with this madman and his mad fellows, but rather eventually does the right thing and ousts this nutbar. Someone, who yes, you are right, 90+% of the entire world thinks is crackers and entirely in the wrong. As far as the religious motives you add into it. Christianity and Christ's teachings hold true to several hallmarks throughout, mainly acceptance, love, forgiveness, and understanding. All you need do is look at the so called 'morale' backers of bush and bush's so called 'morals' to see that they are totally out of touch with the values and teachings Christ's message gave to us. To bush it was just leverage, a way to get elected through using and manipulating people's faith.