Llano vs. Nvidia Graphics

[OCGuy]

what??? even my friend who doesn't know anything about computer, don't want anything from intel crap. and don't let me started on their horrible driver. they all even chose amd for lower performance but have superior graphic.

That seriously doesnt even make sense, even ignoring the language barrier. (trust me, I couldnt go on to a Jakarta-based message board and have a debate)

 

[IntelUser2000]

Again, you are assuming AMD will sell CPUs. History tells me, that even if they have a superior product (P4 era), they still wont break their marketshare ceiling. And no signs are pointing to BD being superior to Sandy and/or Ivy.

AMD did make money in the days where Intel had the Pentium D and also the Prescott chips. One time they had 50%+ retail marketshare for desktops.

Nvidia might need to decrease margins selling less low end CPUs, but the impact to their overall financial health might be exaggerated. Well, not surprising, its always exaggerated.

It's like getting in a minor collision with your brand new car. Ok, its a very bad thing, and you might need to reduce your expenses for the current month, but next month you'll be fine.

 

[AtenRa]

Most people buy an Intel laptop with their integrated piece of crap. What changes in these people to buy a laptop for better graphics performance from AMD? This is what I dont quite get in the whole fusion idea. AMD is building a better performing graphics platform for a market that has clearly said they dont give a crap about graphics performance.

Also business world is a large consumer of these types of laptops. I havent bought a laptop since mine in Dec 09 that isnt Intel integrated. Why? Because we run office. Dont need a whole lot of graphics power to run word.

I was thinking the same thing, why someone will need more GPU performance than an IGP solution or Intel HD2000-3000 graphics ??

The answer is simple, they will create that need for you. More and more programs will start to use the GPU and there will be a time that 30-50% of the programs that you use in your daily Laptop/desktop/pad usage will be GPU accelerated.

http://sites.amd.com/us/fusion/apu/Pages/apps-demos.aspx

Both AMD and NVIDIA are trying hard to make this happen the last years and it is easy to understand why, they cant compete directly with Intel in the X86 CPUs (NV dont have license) but they have superior design and How to knowledge in the GPU arena.

The only problem with Llano that i can see is that AMD only have one fab to produce (GloFo) and even if the need for Llano is high, perhaps they will not be able to feed the market, it's already happening with bobcat and TSMC.

 

[Genx87]

what??? even my friend who doesn't know anything about computer, don't want anything from intel crap. and don't let me started on their horrible driver. they all even chose amd for lower performance but have superior graphic.

So why does Intel own over 60% of the graphics market? Bottom line is people dont care in this market. Business and sub 500 dollar laptops users are people who run office or cruise farmville.

I make the purchases for my company. I havent ever cared about what graphics processor is in our desktop or laptops. And we have never had a request for anything higher end than intels integrated garbage.

 

[Genx87]

It's not like AMD CPUs were paired with NV GPUs all that often anyway, at least not in the laptop market. I don't think I have EVER seen that combination. These pairings don't pose much of a threat to NV at all. They pose a threat to Intel first and foremost, and NV only after they start to gain marketshare...

They have to sell CPUs before they start pairing them with GPUs, you dig?

This is the issue in my opinion. Nvidia doesnt start getting into laptop graphics as an option until you move out of the market Fusion is targetting. Fusion is going up against Intel.

 

[Genx87]

A lot of IFs and Microsoft has multiple times made OSes for architecture that didn't pan out and didn't make much money. Big companies with big war chest have the luxury of hedging their bets. And ARM windows != Tegra ARM. So don't take microsoft running a small experiment as prove for anything. It's just an experiment for the time being and by the time it's usable for tablets I think Apple and Android will have already eaten MS's lunch in that market.

Those OS's were for low volume niche products like Alpha and PowerPC. ARM already outsells x86 on a unit basis and that margin is only going to get bigger over the next decade.

I am not entirely sure what your last sentence means. Will Win8 have competition form Android and Apple? Absolutely, but so what? The fact Microsoft is developing Win8 for ARM tells a lot about where they believe ARM is heading.

Estimates for shipment is just that estimates. So far no one's making much money from tablets except for Apple. As for phones, do you honestly think a quad core SoC is necessary? Or even desired considering the battery capacity that can be crammed into a phone? On my iphone 4 I thought I'd need a giant dataplan but it turns out I 1) only use it when I am not doing anything else and 2) run out of battery more often than data cap. Personally, a dual core is about all I think I'll ever need for a phone until they solve the tiny screen and short battery life problem.

ARM based tablets are just coming out and previous tablets have been hampered by x86. The rest of your point is irrelevant. What you believe and what the market does will be different.

As for tablet Even Anand and his staff's been having trouble getting themselves to use the tablet. They made it quite clear they just couldn't find enough use for it. So lets not jump to conclusion that tegra and the whole mobile ARM to desktop ARM dream is a forgone conclusion. It's not. I have the cash to buy an ipad. I would be called an Apple fan having a 27 inch imac and a MBP. But I just can't see myself using the ipad for more than a week before I do what Anand did and leave it docked at my desk waiting for something I can use it for. At almost 600 bucks I don't see many average person can justify it vs upgrading their laptop or desktop. Think about it, to keep up with the newest computer, smart phone and tablet you are looking at 600 for a phone and 600 for a tablet plus I guess what 1000 to 2000 for a computer? That's 2200 to 3200 bucks a year. Our standard of living isn't jumping that rapidly.

1. Costs will come down
2. Who upgrades every year and what does that have to do with ARM dominating x86 in the next decade?
3. I believe in the next decade people will be using their phones as a replacement for many of the things they do on a desktop. Phones will have a dock with dual monitor, keyboard, and mouse support. Time will tell.

 

[Arkadrel]

@Genx87

In laptops The Llano should beat the SandyBridge for most things (where GPGPU is a option, or makes use of the GPU), same powerload or lower.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdPi4GPEI74

 

[Genx87]

@Genx87

In laptops The Llano should beat the SandyBridge for most things (where GPGPU is a option, or makes use of the GPU), same powerload or lower.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdPi4GPEI74

And?

 

[psoomah]

It isnt going to be AMD v nV. It is going to be AMD v Intel. And with Ivy coming out, who knows what kind of demand for AMD laptops there will be?

Ivy Bridge won't be competing with Llano, it will be competing with Trinity, which AMD's roadmap says will have 2-4 next generation Bulldozer cores and, presumedly, next gen DX11 graphics.

 

[Arkadrel]

3. I believe in the next decade people will be using their phones as a replacement for many of the things they do on a desktop. Phones will have a dock with dual monitor, keyboard, and mouse support. Time will tell.

I can see that happending for work places, where its important to have your pc with you at all times.

I can see these "docking stations" being avaliable on trains ect, so you can work/play even when your on a train (on your way to and from work).

However I doubt, you ll see a phone able to perform even like a 5770 anytime soon.
It will takes more than a decade before you see a phone as powerfull as a 5770, I believe. So it might never end up something you can really game on, as good as a pc, for that reason alone I dont think the pc is going anywhere.

todays mobile phones are already powerfull enough for to run say "office 2011" or so... why arnt there docking stations for them already? Is it because Window8 isnt out yet for them?

I think mobil phones will stagnate at some point (in cpu and gpu performance), because their not ment to be gameing machines, and it caries to big drawbacks to try and make them so. Instead they ll go down and down in power use, and get cheaper and cheaper.At that point, if theres to many players in the market, the 2 strongest will survive there and the rest will probably die off/move on to other things.


also isnt this really far off track with the Llano vs Nvidia graphics title?

Llano will end up like a "Radeon 5570" ~ "Geforce GT240".

Nvidia will just have to make graphics cards faster than the GT240, that are reaaaally cheap, and it can still get into pcs lowend's.

 

[Genx87]

Why arent there docking stations? We are transitioning. I believe motorola does have a dock for one of their android phones. Phones will be a gaming device. They are pushing for everything on phones. First it was a simple camera, then an MP3 player, then applications and simple gaming on android and ios. Next will be more complex gaming. Eventually offer a whole suite of office applications. Goal is to have everything on a phone imo.

 

[lifeblood]

Why arent there docking stations? We are transitioning. I believe motorola does have a dock for one of their android phones. Phones will be a gaming device. They are pushing for everything on phones. First it was a simple camera, then an MP3 player, then applications and simple gaming on android and ios. Next will be more complex gaming. Eventually offer a whole suite of office applications. Goal is to have everything on a phone imo.

I just don't see it happening. A desktop, by virtue of it plugging into wall power rather than a battery, and its larger size, will always be more powerful just because it can have more powerful CPU, GPU, and anything else the future will bring. The phone will always be hampered by its small size. Even if the exact same CPU, GPU, etc are in both the phone and PC, the PC will be able to run it faster because it can fit better cooler, provide more power, etc.

And I don't think we will ever (in the foreseeable future) have enough computing power. When your phone can run a 6 screen Eyefinity setup, my desktop will be running a holodeck.

Not that I'm against more powerful phones, I just think both will continue to exist in one form or another.

 

[Genx87]

I just don't see it happening. A desktop, by virtue of it plugging into wall power rather than a battery, and its larger size, will always be more powerful just because it can have more powerful CPU, GPU, and anything else the future will bring. The phone will always be hampered by its small size. Even if the exact same CPU, GPU, etc are in both the phone and PC, the PC will be able to run it faster because it can fit better cooler, provide more power, etc.

And I don't think we will ever (in the foreseeable future) have enough computing power. When your phone can run a 6 screen Eyefinity setup, my desktop will be running a holodeck.

Not that I'm against more powerful phones, I just think both will continue to exist in one form or another.

Most people dont run eyefinity nor play high end games. They cruise the internet, use basic office applications, and get on facebook. There will always be a market for high end gaming computers. The majority of the market is, imo, up for grabs from a phone device that can do the same as a basic laptop or desktop. With a dock the end user experience will be identical but offer portability even laptops cant touch.

 

[Gloomy]

I don't see the point of buying a phone and a dock when you can buy a phone and a netbook.

lol

 

[Genx87]

I don't see the point of buying a phone and a dock when you can buy a phone and a netbook.

lol

Really? You dont see a point in having everything on a single device that fits in your pocket?

 

[Arkadrel]

Really? You dont see a point in having everything on a single device that fits in your pocket?

it would be nice however:

Size of phone limits you putting a cooler in it that can cool 250watts of CPU + 250watts of GPU.
What happends when someone tries to game on it without it being in a docking station? batteries dead within 10mins?

Cost of phone will explode.... when all most people need of it is just to funktion as a phone/sms+email hand held device. Things like camra and mp3 player are nice too, and dont really take up much, gameing is differnt.

People will want small slim phones, that dont weigh anything, that can go for weeks without being charged up again. That will never happend with a phone that works as a gameing solution equal to a pc.

I dont think phones will revial pcs anytime soon if ever, and I dont think their will be a market for phones even if they could.

I stand by the "at some point, phones will hit a wall, and have all the cpu/gpu they need".
When that happends, it ll be a war of who can use less power doing it, and who can make them cheapest.

 

[Gloomy]

Really? You dont see a point in having everything on a single device that fits in your pocket?

The dock fits in your pocket? Wow. What's the point of it then

 

[Arkadrel]

The dock fits in your pocket? Wow. What's the point of it then

The point is:
you buy 2 x docking stations, and carry your phone back and forth between them.


so:
2 pc moniters, 2 x keybaords, 2x mouse, 2x webcam, 2x sound systems, 2x cables ect.
only 1 smartphone, that fits in pocket.


I think I rather just have a laptop though... probably cheaper.
More hassle to carry a laptop than a smart phone? yeah.. but they ll get lighter as time goes on, just like the smart phone, and they have bigger space to engineer stuff in.

 

[Gloomy]

The point is:
you buy 2 x docking stations, and carry your phone back and forth between them.


so:
2 pc moniters, 2 x keybaords, 2x mouse, 2x webcam, 2x sound systems, 2x cables ect.
only 1 smartphone, that fits in pocket.


I think I rather just have a laptop though... probably cheaper.
More hassle to carry a laptop than a smart phone? yeah.. but they ll get lighter as time goes on, just like the smart phone, and they have bigger space to engineer stuff in.

That's ridiculous! Whatever happened to flash drives?

 

[Genx87]

it would be nice however:

Size of phone limits you putting a cooler in it that can cool 250watts of CPU + 250watts of GPU.
What happends when someone tries to game on it without it being in a docking station? batteries dead within 10mins?

Why are you assuming for gaming on a phone one needs to have a 250 watt GPU? Games are already selling on ios and android using a sub watt GPU.

Cost of phone will explode.... when all most people need of it is just to funktion as a phone/sms+email hand held device. Things like camra and mp3 player are nice too, and dont really take up much, gameing is differnt.

People will want small slim phones, that dont weigh anything, that can go for weeks without being charged up again. That will never happend with a phone that works as a gameing solution equal to a pc.

You are making the mistake of thinking these will replace high end gaming desktops. They wont. They could replace the sub 1000 desktop and laptop market. Which represents a large % of the market. And depending on how it goes could creep into the 1000-2000 range.

I dont think phones will revial pcs anytime soon if ever, and I dont think their will be a market for phones even if they could.

I stand by the "at some point, phones will hit a wall, and have all the cpu/gpu they need".
When that happends, it ll be a war of who can use less power doing it, and who can make them cheapest.

I dont believe anybody has ever made the claim a phone will replace a high end gaming machine. But I can totally see them taking out the low and middle of the market by offering ultra portability. A phone in the business world that can be docked and run the companies business apps would be very beneficial.

 

[bryanW1995]

Yeah its smart of them to develop it...
Its clear that AMD is going after the Laptop market's, with APUs and technologies like BACO(N).

why do I call it bacon? cuz it sounds so much more awesum than PowerExpres 4.0.

"Bus Alive, Chip off" just needs that old fasioned Now! BACON is easier to remember, and who wouldnt want some bacon with their laptop?

Bacon makes everything better. Well, except cake or ice cream. Plus, it was the password for la resistance.

As one canadian puts it: Terence and Philip make me proud to be Canadian.

 

[Gloomy]

Bacon actually goes great with ice cream.

 

[OCGuy]

Ivy Bridge won't be competing with Llano, it will be competing with Trinity, which AMD's roadmap says will have 2-4 next generation Bulldozer cores and, presumedly, next gen DX11 graphics.

They are going to have next-gen BD cores by H1 2012? What roadmap is this?

 

[Dark Shroud]

Some of you guys need to take a look at the Motorola Atrix and it's so called dock.

Docks don't work that well for a lot of pepole. They didn't work for laptops or netbooks en mass and I doubt they'll work for cell phones. Especially if the person has a dumb tablet. Because I remember there were keyboards that were docks for PDAs back in the day. Yes you can do basic work on these devices especially with MS's hosted services for Office & Exchange.

I see this as the same with the laptop fad. Everyone thought they could get rid of their desktops in favor of laptops. Well laptops don't have the storge capicity or as long of a lifespan as desktops. I know several people who are now going back to desktops for work (Office & similar) as well as home videos & pictures. Because in the long run a desktop is cheaper to upgrade instead of buying a new portable device.

 

[lifeblood]

There will always be a market for high end gaming computers. The majority of the market is, imo, up for grabs from a phone device that can do the same as a basic laptop or desktop. With a dock the end user experience will be identical but offer portability even laptops cant touch.

I will grant you that the phone will pick up many of the duties of the standard (non-gaming) PC. I can easily see getting home, slapping my phone in a dock, and doing web, email, etc on it (using the larger keyboard, mouse, and monitor). I just don't think it's going to have AS big an impact as you think just because of it small size.

Lets compare notes in 20 years over a beer. It should be fun.