Mafia Catholics did the same thing for years.
Go to early Mass, confess sins, go out do more party and do shit over the weekend and go to early mass next weekend.
You think they really believed in a God?
Other than thinking God was some kind of angle they could dodge ?
Are you going to start using the Onion as a legit source next?
I addressed your point directly. I can expect my kids to do certain things. It does mean I'm right all the time. I don't know what they're thinking all the time, I don't know what they're doing all the time, I don't know what they're saying all the time. In fact, one of the joys of parenting is watching the kids grow, change, and start to do things on and individual basis that does surprise you and remind you that they're growing up. Your point is moot anyways, because like before, the analogy is flawed from the get go. Stop comparing imperfect humans to an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent creator of all things.
Yes, it can mean that. For instance, God knew long ago I would be sitting here typing this post. If he did not want it to happen, he would simply make it not happen
For instance, God knew long ago I would be sitting here typing this post. If he did not want it to happen, he would simply make it not happen.
On the contrary, you are the one comparing an imperfect human being to an omniscient being. I am trying to give you an example of what an imperfect human being would do and asking you to extrapolate that to what would be possible for an omniscient being.
How would someone being able to see what you would do in the future mean that that person made that future come to fruition? Are you saying that a fortune teller (assuming they are real), who sees your fortunes to come somehow made those fortunes she predicts come to fruition?
Hmm.. Are you saying that because he is omnipotent and chose not to act that therefore he is acting? Doesn't that assume that he at times acts?
Yes, he could simply not make it happen, but again he gives us free will to make that choice of whether we choose to type it or not.
I actually heard an interesting theory that does almost reconcile this problem.
Basically, God is all-knowing because he knows every possible consequence of every possible action. For example, he knows everything that can possibly happen if I hit the "Submit Reply" button and everything that can happen if I don't. However, I still have free will as to whether to hit the button.
I haven't met many religious people that will agree with this theory though. Probably because it still leaves God less than all-knowing, since he doesn't know what choice you will make. It also might require him to operate inside of time.
There you go again, comparing a fortune teller to an omnipotent being.
That is a pretty good argumentative strategy. You seem to not answer those questions where the answers would be contrary to the point you are trying to make.
So, again, let's for the sake of this point acknowledge that a fortune teller is not equal to an omniscient being (we are talking about omniscient at the moment not omnipotent), that an omniscient being would have more knowledge than a fortune teller. Having said that; Being that a fortune teller can tell you your future, does that mean that the fortune teller made that future come to pass?
Just to chime in.
God created everything, and creates all life. He knows what has been, is, and ever will be. Because he "knows" all, then any person made has their future mapped out before they were ever born. If I make person x, they will shoot up a school. If I make person y, they wont shoot up the school.
God knows this before the person is ever made. Time to a person is very different to an all knowing being. Humans can only suspect what the future will be, but God knows it for sure 100% no question. So while we see free will, our path is already laid out, and was laid out before we were even born.
Hold up, emperus is still working on a strategy to compare God to a fortune teller to validate free will.
Awesome. Kudos Mr. Stevens.
The Festivus pole out of Pabst beer cans, how righteous.
Dude, the comparison is moot.
Are you really saying that the Christian God is equivalent to a fortune teller?
I don't answer the question because the comparison is ineffectual. Since God is not a fortune teller, but is the creator of all things, then he makes the future what he wants. .
We both know he wont
Without "free will" God seems like a very mean person. All those raped and killed children, tortured people and just badness would all have been known before anything ever happened. It becomes very hard to justify to an all loving all caring being.
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Of course you won't answer it. Because it defeats the arguments you've been making for pages.
Simply put if you believe a fortune teller can see the future than by your argument that would also mean that he/she controlled that future and our actions and thus we have no free will. So... it's of course easier to refuse to answer the question.
You keep making these statements like the one in red. Why do you believe God makes the future what he wants? Why do you believe that God just doesn't sit back and let things unfold? Because you create something does that mean you must control it?
So, is that the reason that you are focused on proving that there is no free-will.
That somehow it proves there is no God or that God is very unjust?
That seems like a very round about way to do it. You should just say you believe God is a very mean person. Because even with free will, an Omnipotent being should have the wherewithal to save a child or prevent someone from getting raped.. no?
Why do you believe an omniscient creator didn't create the future he intended? Don't forget, he's all knowing, all powerful, and everyone at the same time.
The same way that I believe people who have power don't necessarily use it in a self serving manner. Or do you believe it is impossible to wield power, yet not use it in a purely self serving manner? That seems to be the argument you are making. God is omnipotent so he must be trying to create the future he wants because he can. But why? That line of thinking doesn't make sense to me.
You sound like you are bound to some dogma which you are trying to argue, poorly at that. I'm just wondering why do you think ur dogma is better than some of those Christians who try to illogically defend their dogma?
The same way that I believe people who have power don't necessarily use it in a self serving manner. Or do you believe it is impossible to wield power, yet not use it in a purely self serving manner? That seems to be the argument you are making. God is omnipotent so he must be trying to create the future he wants because he can. But why? That line of thinking doesn't make sense to me.
You sound like you are bound to some dogma which you are trying to argue, poorly at that. I'm just wondering why do you think ur dogma is better than some of those Christians who try to illogically defend their dogma?
He's not trying anything. If you believe God is your ominipotent creator, then everything that happens is because he's created that way. He already knows the outcome. He already knows what you're going to do, already knows what everyone is going to do. He created those people, so what happens is because he has made it so.
I'm not surprised the line of thinking doesn't make sense to you. I spent many years balls deep in religion and took me a good bit of time to start questioning most of it.
No dogma here. And who says the Christians dogma is correct? Should I not argue it just because you don't like it?
I choose to see things for what they are, not what I want them to be.
The problem is that you keep making the argument as if good is limited like people. God is not limited in any way. God is not a fortune teller. A fortune teller can only see the future in what it will become. God not only can see the future, but all possible outcomes ever possible. Because God creates all life, then depending on who and what he makes, it will create one of the future outcomes. So while a human will perceive their choices as free will, God is out side of free will.
See, free will is only for those agents that have very limited knowledge and power. God is not bound and has unlimited power.
You seem to be arguing that God the clock maker. That is to say that God started everything, and now just sits back for the most part. The problem with that is Christianity describes a very different God. God not only started, but continues to add to life. In Christianity, god creates all life always. This means he creates the people that do all things. He knows that when he created Hitler, that WW2 would happen. While it is true that Hitler made choices to become the person he would become, God always knew. He did not know a year before, 10 years before, 413 years before, he had always known what Hitler would do, what every person would do up to and beyond WW2.
So, God knew Hitler and everything he would do, yet God created him anyway. Hitler had no input on his creation, and society did not have input on the creation of Hitler, that all falls on God. God created Hitler, knowing what Hitler would do, no matter the free will involved.
People did not know what would happen when that child was born, but God did. He knew every free choice we would make, and knew that it would lead to Hitler and WW2.