LOL @ Chicago, striking teachers

[QuantumPion]

So you think it would be a good thing if American workers worked for $1/hr and had to work 12 hour days?

You mistakenly attribute the rise in productivity and standard of living of workers due to the innovations of the industrial revolution to the organized labor movement. I don't blame you though, since simple logic and basic economics are not taught in schools any more, replaced now with political slogans and taglines.

 

[Nintendesert]

The average teacher in Chicago makes around $76,000 + benefits and they want a 30% pay increase over two years. Fuck them.

Is that 76,000 over an entire year or 76,000 adjusted for only the days they actually work?

So like 8 months..

 

[Druidx]

There is plenty of money in our economy. The problem is that there is a very unequal distribution of it at this time in history.

Chicago Public Schools expect a $300 -$400 Million budget shortfall for next year and possibly as high a $1 Billion by 2014

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...120328_1_cps-budget-budget-deficit-school-day

 

[DCal430]

Is that 76,000 over an entire year or 76,000 adjusted for only the days they actually work?

So like 8 months..

They get 76,000 total each year, this is very typical of teachers pay in major population areas.

 

[Hugo Drax]

What is the average salary for a new teacher? and one thats been in the system 10 years.

I have seen some of these union pay scales for teachers and it seems like a pretty crappy salary for a job that requires 4 year degree and some extra training.

Why do people even still live in Chicago, shitty weather, Detroit is collapsing, high taxes etc..

 

[Exterous]

The average teacher in Chicago makes around $76,000 + benefits and they want a 30% pay increase over two years. Fuck them.

Assuming this is not just a negotiating tactic this type of thing is what gives unions a bad name

Looks like the major issue here is that teachers don't want their evaluations based on student performance.

As someone who has seen a couple of school districts attempt to implement teacher performance evaluations based on student performance I don't blame them one bit. The idiocy I have witnessed is astounding

 

[Hugo Drax]

The average teacher in Chicago makes around $76,000 + benefits and they want a 30% pay increase over two years. Fuck them.

Do you have proof of this, or are these outliers.

I hear these numbers but they do not match what I see in actual documentation (ie pay scales etc..)

 

[a777pilot]

Hey, Mayor,

You might want to look north for your answer to unreasonable public sector unions.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Do you have proof of this, or are these outliers.

I hear these numbers but they do not match what I see in actual documentation (ie pay scales etc..)

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/06/12/how-much-do-chicago-public-school-teachers-make/

A Chicago Public Schools spokesperson said average pay for teachers, without benefits, is $76,000.

 

[Jaskalas]

First world problems... where people making $76k strike.

 

[DCal430]

What is the average salary for a new teacher? and one thats been in the system 10 years.

I have seen some of these union pay scales for teachers and it seems like a pretty crappy salary for a job that requires 4 year degree and some extra training.

Why do people even still live in Chicago, shitty weather, Detroit is collapsing, high taxes etc..

Those pay scales often don't tell the whole story, since their are often other items not shown that increase their pay. I have family members who are teachers, who have been teaching for around 5 to 8 years each. They make 65 to 70K a year in their pay, and they are not even at the top of their pay.

 

[Matt1970]

Salary figures provided by the Chicago Public Schools show teachers here have the highest average salary of any city in the nation.

A Chicago Public Schools spokesperson said average pay for teachers, without benefits, is $76,000.

So in times of financial hardships felt by almost every city in the nation, the Union decided that getting paid the highest in your profession wasn't enough when most agencies and departments are cutting back.

On July 31, 2012, Mayor Rahm Emanuel released a preliminary estimate of $369 million for the City’s 2013 budget gap, a figure nearly 50 percent less than the $741 million gap projected for 2013 in last year’s Annual Financial Analysis. This year’s budget gap is the lowest the City has had since 2009. By making tough choices to reduce the structural deficit during the 2012 budget process, the City stands in a stronger financial position today and closer to ending the long-time structural shortfall in the city’s corporate budget.

Maybe while those teachers are on strike they can take Economics101.

 

[nehalem256]

You mistakenly attribute the rise in productivity and standard of living of workers due to the innovations of the industrial revolution to the organized labor movement. I don't blame you though, since simple logic and basic economics are not taught in schools any more, replaced now with political slogans and taglines.

So you are saying that organized labor has done nothing to increase wages or reduce work hours for employees?

 

[DrPizza]

Teachers unions are very powerful, here they passed laws that made it nearly impossible to fire a teacher, and even then the cost is hundreds of thousands of dollars for each fired teacher.

Garbage. It's not "nearly impossible to fire a teacher." We can see cases left and right where teachers are fired very rapidly. What tenure guarantees teachers is due process: you cannot be fired without good cause. The only way an incompetent teacher gets tenure in the first place is if the principal & superintendent of the schools completely drops the ball.

Looks like the major issue here is that teachers don't want their evaluations based on student performance.

Teachers don't mind being evaluated on student performance. What they want is a reasonable & fair way to evaluate this. There was a case in NYC of a teacher evaluated on her performance. She did incredibly poorly - one of the worst math teachers in NY based on their rubric. Her 8th graders had previously been in the 99th percentile. Following the 8th grade specific test, the students dropped to the 89th percentile. That was one of the biggest class drops. Was she ineffective? Not by any stretch of the imagination. She did not "teach to the test" for the state 8th grade test. The students did quite well on that test, though they missed some minutiae that in the grand scheme of things are irrelevant toward further success in mathematics. What her 8th graders did was prepare for the 9th grade exam (Integrated Algebra) - they were advanced. A significant percentage of her class aced the exam. I don't personally know any teachers who get more than a couple percent of their students to get a perfect score on that exam. Her class was among the very best in the entire state on the 9th grade exam, but her performance was poor, because the kids did poorly on the 8th grade exam.

You might be thinking, "yeah, but what idiot wouldn't *realize* that her students were advanced and did so well on the 9th grade exam." The problem is, these rules have to be written down. It's pretty hard to craft a policy that has to be followed to the letter, yet also completely applies common sense.

Think about this for a second. If a teacher knows they are being strictly evaluated based on their students' performance, and ranked against other teachers, what do you think they're going to do? They're going to teach to the test.

So, here, we have you, the public, saying that teachers need to do a better job, they need to do more than just teach to the test. And at the same time, rig the system so that any teacher who goes outside teaching to the test is penalized. The teacher's union has thought this through; hence the objections.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Only 15% of the 4th graders in Chicago are proficient in reading. Are they sure a 30% salary increase is enough?

Warning...BIG file! (42MB)
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pdf/dst2011/2012455.pdf

 

[DCal430]

Garbage. It's not "nearly impossible to fire a teacher." We can see cases left and right where teachers are fired very rapidly. What tenure guarantees teachers is due process: you cannot be fired without good cause. The only way an incompetent teacher gets tenure in the first place is if the principal & superintendent of the schools completely drops the ball.

Teachers don't mind being evaluated on student performance. What they want is a reasonable & fair way to evaluate this. There was a case in NYC of a teacher evaluated on her performance. She did incredibly poorly - one of the worst math teachers in NY based on their rubric. Her 8th graders had previously been in the 99th percentile. Following the 8th grade specific test, the students dropped to the 89th percentile. That was one of the biggest class drops. Was she ineffective? Not by any stretch of the imagination. She did not "teach to the test" for the state 8th grade test. The students did quite well on that test, though they missed some minutiae that in the grand scheme of things are irrelevant toward further success in mathematics. What her 8th graders did was prepare for the 9th grade exam (Integrated Algebra) - they were advanced. A significant percentage of her class aced the exam. I don't personally know any teachers who get more than a couple percent of their students to get a perfect score on that exam. Her class was among the very best in the entire state on the 9th grade exam, but her performance was poor, because the kids did poorly on the 8th grade exam.

You might be thinking, "yeah, but what idiot wouldn't *realize* that her students were advanced and did so well on the 9th grade exam." The problem is, these rules have to be written down. It's pretty hard to craft a policy that has to be followed to the letter, yet also completely applies common sense.

Think about this for a second. If a teacher knows they are being strictly evaluated based on their students' performance, and ranked against other teachers, what do you think they're going to do? They're going to teach to the test.

So, here, we have you, the public, saying that teachers need to do a better job, they need to do more than just teach to the test. And at the same time, rig the system so that any teacher who goes outside teaching to the test is penalized. The teacher's union has thought this through; hence the objections.

It isn't garbage, you have no idea about the laws in California. California makes it nearly impossible to fire a teacher. A teacher here was caught with hundreds of lewed images of his students. The school could NOT fire him, instead they had to pay him 40,000 to stop teaching.

California has the strictest laws regarding firing of teachers, and shortest time to tenure. Under the California law only a panel consisting of an Administrative Law Judge, A FRIEND of the teacher, and a colleague can fire a teacher. YES the teachers friend will decide if they can be fired, seem ridiculous, but it is true. A school district California it self CANNOT fire a teacher in California, they can only petition for a panel to form and ask the panel to fire the teacher.

 

[chucky2]

The problem with school now is parents are way to decoupled from their kids performance. No one is going to stand up in public and directly and blatantly tell parents, many of whom are single mothers and/or minorities (and hence, total PC language and tone must be used, else the city gets sued for "mental trauma"), 'The reason your kids are doing poorly is simply because you suck at parenting, and/or, your kid is an idiot'.

You can't take the average kid who's being ignored at home and whose parents don't give a F, is surrounded by other kids in the same situation, whose acedemic lives are jokes, whose priorities have school being the least important thing they're paying attention to, and then expect teachers to magically make these kids learn at the levels they're supposed to. At the %'s it needs to work at, it's never worked, it does not work, and it never will work.

Rather than throwing more money at teachers who are already making plenty, it'd be better to just setup some vocational training for kids so they know how to swing a hammer, weld, do plumbing, maybe work on HVAC, do electrical, etc.

At least then they'll have a chance competing with the illegals/Mexicans who they'll be competing with in the job market.

Chuck

P.S. The Chicago teachers union is insane, haha...

 

[Matt1970]

It isn't garbage, you have no idea about the laws in California. California makes it nearly impossible to fire a teacher. A teacher here was caught with hundreds of lewed images of his students. The school could NOT fire him, instead they had to pay him 40,000 to stop teaching.

California has the strictest laws regarding firing of teachers, and shortest time to tenure. Under the California law only a panel consisting of an Administrative Law Judge, A FRIEND of the teacher, and a colleague can fire a teacher. YES the teachers friend will decide if they can be fired, seem ridiculous, but it is true. A school district California it self CANNOT fire a teacher in California, they can only petition for a panel to form and ask the panel to fire the teacher.

Even if that's true, that's California you AssHat. The rest of the nation has to live by practical rules.

 

[Dedpuhl]

I guess they want cheese on their whoppers. If you live within your means, $76,000 is a lot of money.

I do sympathize with them if they are judged on how the students perform. It reminds me of a good George Carlin quote. "Kids are like any other group of people: a few winners, a whole lot of losers!"

 

[DCal430]

Even if that's true, that's California you AssHat. The rest of the nation has to live by practical rules.

It is the teachers Union in California, who have thwarted ever attempt to change the law.

 

[diesbudt]

Garbage. It's not "nearly impossible to fire a teacher." We can see cases left and right where teachers are fired very rapidly. What tenure guarantees teachers is due process: you cannot be fired without good cause. The only way an incompetent teacher gets tenure in the first place is if the principal & superintendent of the schools completely drops the ball.

Teachers don't mind being evaluated on student performance. What they want is a reasonable & fair way to evaluate this. There was a case in NYC of a teacher evaluated on her performance. She did incredibly poorly - one of the worst math teachers in NY based on their rubric. Her 8th graders had previously been in the 99th percentile. Following the 8th grade specific test, the students dropped to the 89th percentile. That was one of the biggest class drops. Was she ineffective? Not by any stretch of the imagination. She did not "teach to the test" for the state 8th grade test. The students did quite well on that test, though they missed some minutiae that in the grand scheme of things are irrelevant toward further success in mathematics. What her 8th graders did was prepare for the 9th grade exam (Integrated Algebra) - they were advanced. A significant percentage of her class aced the exam. I don't personally know any teachers who get more than a couple percent of their students to get a perfect score on that exam. Her class was among the very best in the entire state on the 9th grade exam, but her performance was poor, because the kids did poorly on the 8th grade exam.

You might be thinking, "yeah, but what idiot wouldn't *realize* that her students were advanced and did so well on the 9th grade exam." The problem is, these rules have to be written down. It's pretty hard to craft a policy that has to be followed to the letter, yet also completely applies common sense.

Think about this for a second. If a teacher knows they are being strictly evaluated based on their students' performance, and ranked against other teachers, what do you think they're going to do? They're going to teach to the test.

So, here, we have you, the public, saying that teachers need to do a better job, they need to do more than just teach to the test. And at the same time, rig the system so that any teacher who goes outside teaching to the test is penalized. The teacher's union has thought this through; hence the objections.

Education is not about remembering how to do specific problems that will be used on specific tests, but general and enough knowledge to tackle all problems of that kind. So saying they failed those tests because they prepared for a different test is stupid, when they should already have the knowledge from a teacher how to tackle those problems, and any problems they may come across.

 

[DCal430]

I am a government worker, and even I have due process in firing, but the teachers so called due process is way beyond mines. All government employees have due process for firing under the 14Th Amendment.

 

[nehalem256]

Only 15% of the 4th graders in Chicago are proficient in reading. Are they sure a 30% salary increase is enough?

Warning...BIG file! (42MB)
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pdf/dst2011/2012455.pdf

The problem with school now is parents are way to decoupled from their kids performance. No one is going to stand up in public and directly and blatantly tell parents, many of whom are single mothers and/or minorities (and hence, total PC language and tone must be used, else the city gets sued for "mental trauma"), 'The reason your kids are doing poorly is simply because you suck at parenting, and/or, your kid is an idiot'.

A lot of the time its like taking a random overweight American's handing them over to Bill Belichek and then wondering why he doesnt make the Super Bowl.

Its a wonder any of the students can read.

 

[Matt1970]

I am a government worker

Well now that explains quite a bit.

 

[1prophet]

Unions are an important counter balance to corporate power and excess profits.

The problem with public unions is there are no corporate profits to divvy up. So who exactly are they acting as a balance to?

Unions are important to keep asshole bosses/managers in check especially ones that try to circumvent negotiated rules and labor laws to meet some upper management quota, and threaten your job if you don't play along.

And for those that say well we have strict labor laws today, we don't need unions any more, have fun representing yourself or if you can afford it hire a lawyer (while being unemployed) for some grievance against your employer who has lawyers on retainer.