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Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
To the people that are confused by Bitcoin, just think of it like paying for gold in World of WarCraft. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's kind of similar as it's a digital good that's being assigned a value by "the market". Diablo III might even be a better example since there was a legit way to purchase gold in that game and the value fluctuated. Based on that monetary value, someone could conceivably trade me a real world item based on the assumption that the digital currency that I gave him would be able to net him real world currency.

Tis a giant ponzi scheme of sorts.

I've always been a bit wary to consider these things a ponzi scheme because the idea of a ponzi scheme is to try and recruit others and to get them to do the same to create a pyramid with a pay-up scheme. The early miners certainly earned more but that's because they didn't have as much competition. More people may mean more coins found (bitcoin mining is sort of like a hashing scavenger hunt), but then the difficulty will go up. I remember back when I used to mine bitcoins, the difficulty nearly doubled on me, and I did see about a 50% reduction in the number of coins that I saw.

In other words, ponzi schemes rely on popularity to fuel the earlier people where bitcoin relies on people sitting on coins before it gets popular.
 

AViking

Platinum Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,264
1
0
See the problem is that Bitcoin is not stable. I am starting a business in a different country and that means I need to move 6 figures. I can't possibly buy 6 figures worth of bitcoins without knowing what it will be worth on the other side. The swings are just too much. If there's a way to buy and sell very quickly between countries so that I'm doing it in real time I might consider it but I have no clue how that would be possible. Linking a bitcoin account to two seperate accounts, one domestic and one overseas. The whole point though is to not get killed on the exchange rate.
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
It's due to the recent introduction of dogecoin which will overtake bitcoin soon.
 

Dman8777

Senior member
Mar 28, 2011
426
8
81
God I wish we could neg on this forum.

Spoken like a true idiot. Real money is in the eye of the beholder. The only thing that gives money its value is the collective belief that it's valuable.

It sure feels like real money to those who buy subway sandwiches with it. Or were those free sandwiches?

Real money as in I produced a good or provided a service to earn it. If someone comes up to me and asks me if I want to buy a digital file which was "earned" by his video card crunching some numbers to solve a problem with no real world meaning, I wouldn't say a word and walk away.

The first responder makes sense but I still have to question who the first person was to say yeah, I will buy that digital file...
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
The businessinsider article linked in the other BTC thread actually makes a decent point that bitcoin does provide a solid, simple medium for digital exchanges. If it's value was not so wildly volatile, I think it could be a serviceable alternative to/hybrid of Paypal/Western Union. Though it would of course hinge on being able to withdraw the funds to real currency or at least pay for things with bitcoin which both are currently pretty major obstacles afaik.

It cannot be a medium of exchange if it's inherently deflationary. Why would you buy stuff with something that will be worth more tomorrow?
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,135
2,445
126
What I don't understand is why anyone with real money would exchange it for bitcoin...

Most people aren't. They mine the coins (Whether it be Bitcoin, Litecoin, Feathercoin, Dogecoin, or whatever coin they like) with their computers and then exchange it for Bitcoin. They can then buy stuff with it, or exchange it into dollars or gift cards and spend the winnings that way.

Some people can hold onto the currency in the hopes that it goes up as well, but that seems to be increasingly risky now.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
God I wish we could neg on this forum.

Spoken like a true idiot. Real money is in the eye of the beholder. The only thing that gives money its value is the collective belief that it's valuable.

It sure feels like real money to those who buy subway sandwiches with it. Or were those free sandwiches?

Wrong. What gives "money" it's value is the government backing and its ability to tax us. That's how currency value is bootstrapped, dollars in some sense are certificates of future tax revenue.

What you are talking about is extrinsic value - think greater fool theory.
 
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ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,135
2,445
126
God I wish we could neg on this forum.

I'm kinda glad that you can't downvote comments here. It you look at the Crypto forums on Reddit, for example, you'll see a bunch of shills promoting their crypto currency of choice and having those comments upvoted by their buddies. If you dare to say anything negative about their coin of choice, your comment gets downvoted into oblivion.

You end up with forums filled with cheerleaders, with no actual debate or rational discussion.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
I'm kinda glad that you can't downvote comments here. It you look at the Crypto forums on Reddit, for example, you'll see a bunch of shills promoting their crypto currency of choice and having those comments upvoted by their buddies. If you dare to say anything negative about their coin of choice, your comment gets downvoted into oblivion.

You end up with forums filled with cheerleaders, with no actual debate or rational discussion.

This. Social media fluffers are out in full force on those things; stuff like autoblog comments are absolute garbage because of it.
 

AViking

Platinum Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,264
1
0
So basically they are useless for any legitimate use?

Money laundering though and drug deals seems like a good use for them. Go Bitcoin!
 

Alienwho

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2001
6,766
0
76
Wrong. What gives "money" it's value is the government backing and its ability to tax us. That's how currency value is bootstrapped, dollars in some sense are certificates of future tax revenue.

What you are talking about is extrinsic value - think greater fool theory.

Wrong! What if you don't believe that government is in power? What about civil wars? Governments don't give money its value, the PEOPLE DO. I can start my own government and my own country on an island and as official and legit as I believe it is you're not going to see my sand dollars as valuable unless I can swindle the whole world into believing it.
 

AViking

Platinum Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,264
1
0
Wrong! What if you don't believe that government is in power? What about civil wars? Governments don't give money its value, the PEOPLE DO. I can start my own government and my own country on an island and as official and legit as I believe it is you're not going to see my sand dollars as valuable unless I can swindle the whole world into believing it.

Most countries use fiat currencies but they have been backed by gold before.

The problem that I see with Bitcoin is that it is so volatile. Countries that have been unable to maintain a stable currency have been forced to pretty much abandon it. Zimbabwe was not able to keep using their dollar and the people started using US dollars. I remember being in Yugoslavia and Montenegro used the Euro. The same is true with Bitcoin. If you can't buy something as simple as a loaf of bread then people will just use a currency where that transaction is possible. Thus why the dollar, euro, and pound make sense.

Nobody is swindling. It's really just a matter of being able to use the currency for it's intended use. Bitcoins are being treated as commodities with speculators and wild swings. Where the swindling might happen though is in international currency exchange rates. The USA is keeping the dollar intentionally weak for a number of reasons. This makes moving dollars out of the country rather costly. I don't see how bitcoins will make this any better though.
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
31
91
Wrong! What if you don't believe that government is in power? What about civil wars? Governments don't give money its value, the PEOPLE DO. I can start my own government and my own country on an island and as official and legit as I believe it is you're not going to see my sand dollars as valuable unless I can swindle the whole world into believing it.

So in your analogy is the bitcoin a sand dollar?
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Wrong! What if you don't believe that government is in power? What about civil wars? Governments don't give money its value, the PEOPLE DO. I can start my own government and my own country on an island and as official and legit as I believe it is you're not going to see my sand dollars as valuable unless I can swindle the whole world into believing it.

If you get enough people on that island and have power to tax their productivity, you will engender value in your sand dollars. Incidentally that's how fiat currency originally started:
http://books.google.com/books?id=B-...wCQ#v=onepage&q=yap stone wheels fiat&f=false
 

KB

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 1999
5,401
386
126
Hmm let me see I can convert my government backed, FDIC insured money into a cryptocurrency, where it can be lost if not backed up, stolen or hacked leaving me with no options. Or I can just keep it in a currency my government allows me to pay taxes in, and spend it using a credit card thats protected from false charges. Wow sign me up for bitcoin!

And is it really cheaper to send money overseas? First I have to install a bitcoin client, buy bitcoins on an exchange, send them to a user who has installed a bitcoin client, then they sell them on an exchange. I get no chargeback options if the item isn't sent and there are two transactions fees (buying, then selling) instead of one with a credit card.


Anyone watch Almost Human on Fox? In the last episode people were buying recycled human organs with bitcoin. Thought it was funny.
 
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