lol

[AViking]

You've obviously only dealt with the consumer side of a transaction. Credit is not free.

I've dealt with it on both sides. Bitcoin does not make credit free so it doesn't solve that problem. The whole point of credit is that you are paying to use someone else's money so that's besides the point. No free lunch here.

I listed a number of things in this thread that relate to real world business and nobody has responded with how bitcoin is useful.

I completely understand how it's good for money laundering and drug deals. It's really awesome for that. However for everyone else how is it good again?

 

[Train]

I've dealt with it on both sides. Bitcoin does not make credit free so it doesn't solve that problem. The whole point of credit is that you are paying to use someone else's money so that's besides the point. No free lunch here.

I listed a number of things in this thread that relate to real world business and nobody has responded with how bitcoin is useful.

I completely understand how it's good for money laundering and drug deals. It's really awesome for that. However for everyone else how is it good again?

the problem is you are comparing two different things. Bitcoin is not a "middleman" anymore than dollars are. Comparing them to services like Paypal or Credit cards is pointless.

 

[brianmanahan]

No arrogance or ill will intended, only trying to be direct.

But again, bitcoin cannot be compared to the stock market. When you own a bitcoin, you own nothing. Absolutely nothing. This is the literal definition of a pyramid scheme.

exactly. it's backed by the full faith and credit of... nothing. at this point, i think it's primary value driver is the greater fool theory.

 

[Squeetard]

Bitcoin is fully backed by greed.

 

[edro]

When mining, who pays for the mined data? Who gives out the BTC?

I have read How-Tos and Wikis, but I still don't understand it.

I read the analogy that BTC mining is like mining gold.
You expend human, machinery, gasoline, etc resources to obtain gold.
You expend computing power, electricity, etc to obtain BTC.

Once the BTC is "created", it is in circulation, just like a gold nugget.

... but I still don't get it.

What is a BTC? It is just the result of a lot of computing power? It is a file? It is a string of digits?
Why can't they create some "cheap" versions that are easy to solve?

This helped, but still doesn't answer everything.
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Introduction

Creation of coins
The creation of coins must be limited for the currency to have any value.
New coins are slowly mined into existence by following a mutually agreed-upon set of rules. A user mining bitcoins is running a software program that searches tirelessly for a solution to a very difficult math problem whose difficulty is precisely known. The difficulty is automatically adjusted regularly so that the number of solutions found globally, by everyone, for a given unit of time is constant: an average of 6 per hour. When a solution is found, the user may tell everyone of the existence of this newly found solution, along with other information, packaged together in what is called a "block".
Blocks create 25 new bitcoins at present. This amount, known as the block reward, is an incentive for people to perform the computation work required for generating blocks. Roughly every 4 years, the number of bitcoins that can be "mined" in a block reduces by 50%. Originally the block reward was 50 bitcoins; it halved in November 2012. Any block that is created by a malicious user that does not follow this rule (or any other rules) will be rejected by everyone else. In the end, no more than 21 million bitcoins will ever exist.
Because the block reward will decrease over the long term, miners will some day instead pay for their hardware and electricity costs by collecting transaction fees. The sender of money may voluntarily pay a small transaction fee which will be kept by whoever finds the next block. Paying this fee will encourage miners to include the transaction in a block more quickly.

How do they know it was malicious? One large malicious attack could rock the whole thing... Bernie Madoff style, except there would be nothing left to liquidate, like actual company assets.

Sorry to derail the thread with my learning of bitcoins.

 

[Squeetard]

It's a fiat currency, not backed by anything so it's value is whatever someone says it is. Basic economics says that the more you make means each one lessens in value.

Take this example:

You have ten widgets. The only ten widgets in the world. You take them to the bank and the bank says they will keep them safe for you and pay you 1 widget a year. Where does the 11th widget come from? Thin air. Now the other 10 widgets are worth 9/10 of their original value. Or they can only buy 9/10ths of what they used to, this is inflation.

And it is what is wrong with the world today. We've got hoards of investors and stock markets making billions of dollars out of nothing. All the while decreasing the value of money. These vultures add zero net gain to the world.

And this is the same with bitcoin.

 

[Train]

And this is the same with bitcoin.

Its not the same with bitcoin.

With Fiat currency, whoever controls it can create more *at will*.

with BTC, you can try very hard to create more, and might create some, but every time you do, it gets harder.

Also, BTC will hit a hard stop point at 21 million.

There are pros and cons to this. Fiat currency can quickly react to increased demand, to prevent deflation. Downside is over time, Fiat currency suffers from inflation.

A small amount of inflation is good, assuming the economy around the currency grows at the same pace.

 

[Squeetard]

Its not the same with bitcoin.

A small amount of inflation is good, assuming the economy around the currency grows at the same pace.

I agree, not quite the same but now they are messing with the value of each coin, not much different than making more, worse even because there is nothing but speculation driving it.

Natural inflation occurs when more goods are produced into the economy. Always a good thing. Most of our inflation derives from nothing, bad thing.

 

[halik]

The hatred for bitcoin just seems irrational and short sighted.

I sold my car recently, I would have loved to accept bitcoin for it. No hassling with the banks or checks and waiting days for the money to clear.

I'll bet that by the end of 2014 bitcoin will be as widely accepted and normal as paypal. Then why would anybody EVER use paypal again? No more paypal fees! What's so hard to understand about this scenario?

Overstock.com just announced they'll be accepting bitcoin in 2014.

Umm it takes like 3 weeks to cash out of bitcoin; hope you didn't sell the car when it was at $1200

 

[halik]

Wow you are so smart. Find a way to place your bets it will be worth $1 some day, based on your confidence it's a surefire way to become a millionaire.

Overstock is a marketing stunt? Doesn't change the fact that you could still buy real physical goods from them with the magical unicorn money.

It's the same argument over and over. "At least fiat currency's like the us dollar are backed by government blah blah bitcoins have no support". The people choose to give it support and value the currency, governments don't do that. Whether you believe in the government that supports a specific currency or whether you bypass the government and support a specific currency yourself makes no difference. If the entire world lost faith in the US government tomorrow the US dollar would become worthless overnight as countries dump their US debt. In fact these countries don't even have to stop believing in the US Government, they could play financial terrorists by making a collective decision to dump the US dollar for no reason.

Currency's only exist out of convenience because it makes no sense to barter on a daily basis. This is the ONLY reason we have dollars - because it's easier than carrying around gold. (Oh wait, but what gives gold its value? Especially to ancient people who had no scientific use for it. Gold was as useful to them as bitcoin is to us today, but it sure was worth a lot for some reason).Bitcoin has the potential of being more convenient than any currency in the history of the world. Retards like you think the government is run by these amazing intellectual geniuses that spread fairy dust on our dollar bills to make them work.

1) Dollars have value because United States if the biggest economy of the world and dollars represent the ability to tax said economy.

2) It absolutely does not have the potential to be most convenient current by design - there is absolutely max of circulation. Once you start approaching the limit (either by difficulting blowing up, or just exhausting the circulation), you'll hit deflation and velocity of money will go to zero.


Reading arguments like yours, it's getting pretty clear that BT is pushed by fanbois with absolutely no background in economics and fasciation with Austrian nonsense.

 

[Alienwho]

Umm it takes like 3 weeks to cash out of bitcoin; hope you didn't sell the car when it was at $1200

It can take anywhere from minutes to days to cash out of bitcoin depending on the service you use. Either way when you sell you sell at the immediate price, not at the price when the money appears in your account. So even if it took 3 weeks (which it doesn't) you would get the price when you sell, not the price 3 weeks from now.

a2) It absolutely does not have the potential to be most convenient current by design - there is absolutely max of circulation. Once you start approaching the limit (either by difficulting blowing up, or just exhausting the circulation), you'll hit deflation and velocity of money will go to zero.

Max circulation. What does this have to do with convenience? You do know you can deal in fractions of a bitcoin right? I don't have to buy a subway sandwich for 1 bitcoin. I can buy it for .000001 bitcoin

Reading responses like yours proves that you are nothing but an irrational hater and have no idea what bitcoin is or experience of how it actually works at all in the real world.


Since bitcoin is so destined to fail, when does this happen? What it is, 10 years? 20? 50? Please enlighten us.

These are the facts:

1. Bitcoin is young, 5 years old and has gone from being worth nothing to over $700 as of right now.
2. Bitcoin is becoming so mainstream that your mom has probably heard of it.
3. Bitcoin is being discussed as a legitimate form of way to accept payments by more and more merchants every day.
4. Bitcoin is becoming such a big deal that governments are having conversations about it.
5. Bitcoin could be worth something today and tomorrow be worth absolutely nothing, no different than the US dollar or any stock you might own.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I think Anand is the only ATOT millionaire right now. However, it might be possible for the Distributed Computing forum to devise a currency (aka ATOT Coins).

Said coins could be used to buy power and influence on Anandtech.

Thanks care,

Felix

Or pay the Ransom to get out of Olds' basement..

 

[iGas]

No banks or govern body support, therefore it is a hazardous gamble. The law of stock market, anything that goes up must come down.

http://blockchain.info/charts/market-price

 

[Perknose]

Watching the bitcoin saga is fascinating. It reminds me of another crappy currency pulled entirely out of some creator's ass: buttcoin.

Buttcoin was once flush with success, but then took a big dump and was thoroughly wiped clean in a double ply frenzy of hygienic market correction.

 

[T9D]

Buttcoin lol

Just watching the graph you can see it's massively manipulated and traded just for profit and not goods or services. Governments are banning it left and right. It's to unreliable and to easy to corner the market on them. The more they own the more rare they are and the less others have, then they dictate the price and flow of them. Makes it easy for the super rich to buy it up and manipulate it.

Sounded good in theory but it just can't work in real world.

 

[halik]

It can take anywhere from minutes to days to cash out of bitcoin depending on the service you use. Either way when you sell you sell at the immediate price, not at the price when the money appears in your account. So even if it took 3 weeks (which it doesn't) you would get the price when you sell, not the price 3 weeks from now.



Max circulation. What does this have to do with convenience? You do know you can deal in fractions of a bitcoin right? I don't have to buy a subway sandwich for 1 bitcoin. I can buy it for .000001 bitcoin

Reading responses like yours proves that you are nothing but an irrational hater and have no idea what bitcoin is or experience of how it actually works at all in the real world.


Since bitcoin is so destined to fail, when does this happen? What it is, 10 years? 20? 50? Please enlighten us.

These are the facts:

1. Bitcoin is young, 5 years old and has gone from being worth nothing to over $700 as of right now.
2. Bitcoin is becoming so mainstream that your mom has probably heard of it.
3. Bitcoin is being discussed as a legitimate form of way to accept payments by more and more merchants every day.
4. Bitcoin is becoming such a big deal that governments are having conversations about it.
5. Bitcoin could be worth something today and tomorrow be worth absolutely nothing, no different than the US dollar or any stock you might own.

I'd suggest you google the concepts of "deflation" and "money velocity" before you attempt to retort what I put forth...

 

[Mandres]

A couple of thoughts about BTC that maybe some will find interesting:

1.) They're not totally devoid of intrinsic value. Their value is derived from their ability to facilitate anonymous transactions. Bitcoins can be mined or acquired and then transferred anywhere in the world nearly instantaneously - without ever linking them to your real-life identity (if you're careful). That leaves a sour taste for most of us law-abiding citizens but surely you can see how it's valuable.

2.) The Silk Road marketplace was seized and shut down earlier this year by the FBI/DEA, and in the process the US govt seized a huge cache of BTC. Before the seizure, the value of those coins had been steady at $100-$150 for quite a while. Since then, the market value of BTC has increased 10x, in spite of the fact that their primary value driver (the Silk Road) no longer exists. Think maybe the greatest hype machine in the world, the US govt, might be pumping and dumping at the expense of the Chinese? It wouldn't surprise me one bit.

 

[OverVolt]

^

No

 

[bigi]

1) Dollars have value because United States if the biggest economy of the world and dollars represent the ability to tax said economy....

LOL.

 

[JMapleton]

Watching the bitcoin saga is fascinating. It reminds me of another crappy currency pulled entirely out of some creator's ass: buttcoin.

Buttcoin was once flush with success, but then took a big dump and was thoroughly wiped clean in a double ply frenzy of hygienic market correction.

You had me fooled for a minute. Now I see what you did there....

 

[judywhite]

Hold on to your hat guys! Bitcoin is back at 1000USD per BTC. Very unpredictable, right?​

 

[OverVolt]

Its fairly predictable, its a raw/naive bubble. They always dead cat bounce. Its going to crash and rebound 2-3 times before it settles into a more established trading range. Trying to time the exact top and bottom though is about as likely as getting hit by lightning, so don't try. Odds are about as good as hitting the lottery of successfully trading something so volatile with almost zero concrete information.

I do think it has long-term intrinsic value. 21 million bitcoins and 7 billion people.

It does seem like a modern day gold rush, however much like the California gold rush the people who really make the most money were the mining equipment sellers. Everyone else was just a fool running around. Not that it didn't benefit people by settling out west. I think the idea is whats more important than the actual greed part. Until then all this nonsense is just fools running around. Rich one second and poor the next. Very few will actually come out of this rich.

 

[mizzou]

Its fairly predictable, its a raw/naive bubble. They always dead cat bounce. Its going to crash and rebound 2-3 times before it settles into a more established trading range. Trying to time the exact top and bottom though is about as likely as getting hit by lightning, so don't try. Odds are about as good as hitting the lottery of successfully trading something so volatile with almost zero concrete information.

I do think it has long-term intrinsic value. 21 million bitcoins and 7 billion people.

It does seem like a modern day gold rush, however much like the California gold rush the people who really make the most money were the mining equipment sellers. Everyone else was just a fool running around. Not that it didn't benefit people by settling out west. I think the idea is whats more important than the actual greed part. Until then all this nonsense is just fools running around. Rich one second and poor the next. Very few will actually come out of this rich.

except gold has held had an intrinsic value for tens of thousands of years.

what is the intrinsic value of bitcoin?

Don't compare bitcoin to gold...



lol just read part of this article, will post later, " Nothing is autonomous except God. There is no market for God. He is not for sale.

God has intrinsic value. Nothing else does."


this makes me rethink...the reason gold is so valuable is because it's so rare (but not too rare) and it is relatively easily traded. Also...it's really hard to make fake gold, because gold is a product of nature...its an earth metal.

The problem with bitcoin is that although it is rare (But not too rare), it is nothing unique. The only reason it's limited is because it's creator said so. There is NOTHING holding them back to say "uhh...let's release some more bitcoins"

 

[quakefiend420]

except gold has held had an intrinsic value for tens of thousands of years.

what is the intrinsic value of bitcoin?

Don't compare bitcoin to gold...



lol just read part of this article, will post later, " Nothing is autonomous except God. There is no market for God. He is not for sale.

God has intrinsic value. Nothing else does."


this makes me rethink...the reason gold is so valuable is because it's so rare (but not too rare) and it is relatively easily traded. Also...it's really hard to make fake gold, because gold is a product of nature...its an earth metal.

The problem with bitcoin is that although it is rare (But not too rare), it is nothing unique. The only reason it's limited is because it's creator said so. There is NOTHING holding them back to say "uhh...let's release some more bitcoins"

The intrinsic value of Bitcoin is the payment network that powers it. It's impossible to counterfeit Bitcoin. It can be sent anywhere in the world almost instantly and completely securely for nearly nothing in fees(pennies for hundreds of thousands of dollars worth). Bitcoin is infinitely more useful than gold as a store of value and as money, it's easier to transfer and more fungible(try paying someone 20 cents worth of gold in Bangladesh when you're in the USA). Gold gets dug up and buried in another hole somewhere and sits.

And yes, there is something stopping them from releasing more Bitcoins, it's miner consensus. There is no incentive for all miners to agree to a fork that allows more coins to be created because it devalues their own holdings. So someone can start mining blocks that contain more coins if they want, but the network will ignore them and continue mining on the "real" blockchain because no one else agrees to accept them as valid, so they never go anywhere.

 

[AViking]

So how do I sent $500,000 from the US to Argentina and how do I get the money in Pesos without losing hundreds of thousands of dollars?