Long Live AGP

[hellblazer]

I have an Athlon XP clocked at 2.5ghz with 230mhz bus 2.5cl and score a 5415 3dmark 05 with an unlocked 6800nu @ 445/920.

5400 3d05 marks is equal to a pci-e nf4 AMD Athlon 64 4000+ CPU (2.40GHz, 1MB L2) with a 6800ultra. http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/geforce7800-gt_26.html

I don't see a reason to upgrade at all since all modern graphics cards are cpu limited after 1600x1200 and that's the resolution that you would want to be playing at anyway. In another review, a 2.6ghz athlon fx with a bfg6800u oc only got a 3dmark05 5688. The 2.6ghz fx with 430/1200 ultra only scores 5% faster than my rig.

I have no problem with someone who paid $300 more for their cpu and mb to have a 5% faster system. I don't see why so many people here are down on AGP and think that spending $200 (venice 2gz) +$125 (NF4MB) is justifiable for a 5% increase. I don't care that my video card is cpu limted at resolutions lower than 1600x1200. I wish nvidia would release the 7800gtx on AGP because all cpu's rated 3ghz or more score the same after the eye candy is turned up.

 

[5150Joker]

You AGP whiners need to shut up already, its getting old.

 

[McArra]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
You AGP whiners need to shut up already, its getting old.

The only thing it can't do is SLI. In single card cofig it performs just as good, so there's no real reason to make the change, oh wait, there's one... THE NEED TO MAKE MONEY from companies... and marketing of course... :roll:

 

[hellblazer]

I'm not whinning; I actually was so close to upgrading to the above mentioned system but decided to push my existing system to the limits and discovered a 5400 3dmark05 score and great BF2 frame rates at 1600x1200. I am truely amazed at the performace of an old athlon xp system coupled with a modern graphics card. Coupled with soundstorm (a $45 savings over audigy 1), I am as fast as athlon 64 systems using onboard sound. I think many reviewers biases are tied to whatever is new because it is in their own self interest (and I admit it is fun playing with new tech) but is pci-e really any better than 1% of an equivalent agp based system? It seems to me that people who feel like they need to justify their expenditure on a 939 based system are doing it for their own conscience. Sure, 939 pci-3 is better than socket A, but shouldn't anything that costs more be faster? I am reminded of the useless intel architectural upgrades of the past i.e. pentium pro, pentium mmx, pentium 2, etc.

 

[McArra]

I don't agree with that, A64 is much more powerfull than AXP.

 

[hellblazer]

Thnaks McArra for some real input. SLI is for the gamer who is willing to spend to push the limits of current technology, however, SLI isn't great for most gamers because it only provides a modest boost in framerate at double the video card monetary outlay while consuming twice the watts when your computer is idle. Most gamers would be better served by just waiting for the next gen card to come out and then buying that.

 

[McArra]

Agreed.

 

[Killrose]

I'm waiting for that Uli board with an AGP 8x slot as well as a single or double PCI-e 16x slot on it to throw my old, has been technology AGP 6800U that beats new technology PCI-e 16x into.

I'm not buying into the PCI-e thing untill every app out-performs AGP bussed hardware.

 

[Acanthus]

Like the platform change is that big of a deal, especially when youre buying a $500 graphics card. :thumbsdown:

 

[wanderer27]

I can't believe no one has thrown out the ole standby already:

You can't play a Benchmark.

 

[McArra]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Like the platform change is that big of a deal, especially when youre buying a $500 graphics card. :thumbsdown:

I can't, I'm a studient and is very hard to have the money for the GFX card, let alone the card and a MOBO....

I'm also waiting for a good MoBo with that ULi chip.

 

[blckgrffn]

Originally posted by: wanderer27
I can't believe no one has thrown out the ole standby already:

You can't play a Benchmark.

Amen to that. Those Axp's were good back in the day, but physics heavy games like Painkiller and HL2 took them out, and Doom 3 demands more CPU to get to 1600*1200 too.

Unless you like stuttering everytime you smash a box or crack a crate. Do you need much more than a 2.2-2.4 ghz A64 to really put the burden back on the vid card? Is any Axp up to that challenge? No. Putting a 7800 series card into that would be a pretty big waste as performance wouldn't improve much.

Since you aren't going to put a more powerful vid card in your current rig, what is the problem? A 6800 can't run 1600*1200 w/AA & AF on, it's a good match for a budget Axp or entry level A64 system. If you have a good AGP card, ie a x800 Pro or 6800GT or better, I can see you not wanting to upgrade your AGP stuff. But why do you demand that a series of cards that would be very bottlenecked in your PC be released at some substantial cost to the manufacturer? If you have a 3.4 ghz+ P4 or nice AGP 754 setup, or an even rarer nice AGP 939 setup, a 6800GT or better or a X800 series card is going to continue to do well for at least a year or so. You are just going to want to have 256 megs of VRAM to really turn on the details along with a decent amount of shader power. If you have some lesser setup that is being seriously constricted by lack of CPU power, you can put together a good 754 AGP system *for cheap* and that should get you by for year or two when your card will be really obsolete anyway.

Just what is the point of hanging on to AGP? I have gone back and forth a couple times now, and it really doesn't seem like an issue to me. If you are upgrading now, get a PCIe setup. If you already have a good enough AGP card that you don't need to upgrade, wait a year and then hit PCIe up.

PCIe has been out for almost 18 months now, right? What is the big deal about moving over to it? There are already plenty of used PCIe cards out there too, so you don't even have to buy brand new ones anymore...

 

[apoppin]

Why hang on to AGP?
. . . to save money . . .
:roll:

for those of us limited by our monitors to 12x10 or less, a SINGLE - agp - 6800GT or Ultra will play ALL modern games . . . for Next gen games, i will get a next gen HW solution

 

[imported_Kensai]

Dual 7800GTX + AMD X2 4400+ = Killer gaming performance.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Kensai
Dual 7800GTX + AMD X2 4400+ = Killer gaming performance.

for future games
. . . or at ultra-high resolutions and mucho AA/AF . . . a "waste" for MOST - 90%+ - gamers
:roll:


bragging rights . . . priceless . .
that's all

 

[Busithoth]

Originally posted by: Kensai
Dual 7800GTX + AMD X2 4400+ = Killer gaming performance.

I doubt you'll find someone to argue on this point.
The debate might be where the line is between 'killer' and 'frakking awesome', which is where the top of the line cards now get you.

I still like the idea of having the tech, mind you. Get a 7800GTX now, and play until price comes down and specs rise to make this card less kick-ass (long wait, by my estimation) then pop another card in and run in SLI.

 

[imported_Kensai]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Kensai
Dual 7800GTX + AMD X2 4400+ = Killer gaming performance.

for future games
. . . or at ultra-high resolutions and mucho AA/AF . . . a "waste" for MOST - 90%+ - gamers
:roll:


bragging rights . . . priceless . .
that's all

Nobody said I ran in SLI. WoW + Movie = Fun.

 

[Greenman]

Lots of us still use XP's and AGP. They work, and they work very well indeed. It's fun buying new parts and upgrading all the time, but it's by no means necessary. If you have a half way good computer now, you'll need benchmarks to tell you if all your upgrades made any deferance.

 

[Avalon]

The only problem with comparing your 3dmark05 score on your AXP rig to someone's A64 rig score and claiming your CPU is just about as fast as theirs doesn't work. That 3dmark score is based almost solely on your graphics performance, so it doesn't say much of anything about your CPU's performance in comparison to an A64. If you look at an actual in-game benchmark of something such as Doom 3 that benched both AXP and A64 systems, you'd see a fair performance delta until you raised the resolution high enough to where it became a GPU limited issue.

 

[blckgrffn]

Originally posted by: apoppin
Why hang on to AGP?
. . . to save money . . .
:roll:

for those of us limited by our monitors to 12x10 or less, a SINGLE - agp - 6800GT or Ultra will play ALL modern games . . . for Next gen games, i will get a next gen HW solution

Well, that is exactly the point I was trying to make. If you have a highend AGP card already, what is the problem? If you are upgrading to that performance level right now, it would be foolish to go with AGP, however. But if the price is right, then go for it. A few months ago, I got a killer deal on an ATI x800xl agp, and so I bought a used MSI neo2 and moved my venice to that. If you are that kind of deal seeker and have little qualms about changing hardware, I don't think that AGP going away should be an issue either.

Most cards that are of high performance and great value are PCIe at this point (excluding the used 6800GT market, now there are some nice buys). X800 Vanillas and any of the lower end "nice" nvidia cards are significantly cheaper as PCIe cards. If you already have a A64, all that is required to upgrade is the mobo at $75-$90 if you are really on a budget. If that doesn't trip your trigger, you will be paying a bit more for the same performance when buying a budget video card. nvidia or ATI offering both varitiesjust drives costs up and that makes them more expensive for us, the time has come to consolidate.

 

[Jeff7181]

5400 3d05 marks is equal to a pci-e nf4 AMD Athlon 64 4000+ CPU (2.40GHz, 1MB L2) with a 6800ultra

3DMark2005 is GPU limited. So what surprises you about that?

I don't see a reason to upgrade at all since all modern graphics cards are cpu limited after 1600x1200 and that's the resolution that you would want to be playing at anyway.

That statement is so broad it can't be true. Half Life 2 at 2048x1536 with 8XAA and 16XAF will NOT be CPU limited.

In another review, a 2.6ghz athlon fx with a bfg6800u oc only got a 3dmark05 5688. The 2.6ghz fx with 430/1200 ultra only scores 5% faster than my rig.

Again... 3DMark2005 is GPU limited. You could test a 6800 Ultra and a Celeron and get almost the same score.

great BF2 frame rates at 1600x1200

I very highly doubt that. An average of 50-60 frames per second is not "great."

I am as fast as athlon 64 systems using onboard sound

No... it's not... period. That is not open to debate, it's simply untrue. Athlon 64's are faster than Athlon XP's in EVERY area you can possibly test.

SLI is for the gamer who is willing to spend to push the limits of current technology, however, SLI isn't great for most gamers because it only provides a modest boost in framerate at double the video card monetary outlay while consuming twice the watts when your computer is idle. Most gamers would be better served by just waiting for the next gen card to come out and then buying that.

Where'd that come from? :shocked:

Putting a 7800 series card into that would be a pretty big waste as performance wouldn't improve much.

I disagree. A more powerful video card allows for more/better shader effects and higher levels of AA and AF.

Why hang on to AGP?
. . . to save money . . .

It's not a money issue. At least it shouldn't be. Anyone who upgrades their motherboard just for PCI-Express is an idiot. But it's clear that PCI-Express is superior to AGP, so why hang onto an old standard when there's something better? Nobody's saying PCI-Express is so much better than AGP that you need to switch immediately. PCI-Express is in the future of PC's... it's superior to AGP... so why SOULDN'T next generation hardware use it?




What's the point of this thread anyway? I don't understand the OP's point. Are you saying Athlon XP's and AGP 6800's are fast enough so nobody should ever buy anything new and technology should come to a screeching hault because your AXP/6800 rig scores 5400 in 3DMark2005??????

 

[blckgrffn]

Putting a 7800 series card into that would be a pretty big waste as performance wouldn't improve much.

I disagree. A more powerful video card allows for more/better shader effects and higher levels of AA and AF.

I respect that, but would you really be able to tell the difference in a AXP machine between a 6800U and 7800GT? Transparency AA? Games won't be any smoother, minimum framerates would still suck on the newest games, and it would be a dumb upgrade IMHO. AA&AF would be better, yes, but the money would be better spent on the rest of the system at that point.

It's not a money issue. At least it shouldn't be. Anyone who upgrades their motherboard just for PCI-Express is an idiot. But it's clear that PCI-Express is superior to AGP, so why hang onto an old standard when there's something better? Nobody's saying PCI-Express is so much better than AGP that you need to switch immediately. PCI-Express is in the future of PC's... it's superior to AGP... so why SOULDN'T next generation hardware use it?

I don't think many people upgrade to PCIe just for PCIe - do you mean somebody ditching their AGP board and AGP 6800GT for ones in PCIe flavor? Yes, that would be pretty stupid. I don't think that it is dumb to move from AGP to PCIe to take advantage of the latest technology though. Lets face, the NF4 boards are a lot better than the 939 board that came in AGP... the MSI was the only truely decent one out of the select few IMHO. Honestly, if you are thinking of upgrading your 6800GT at this point, you have some money to spend and selling your old one and buying a new comparable one is the matter of $20 or so at this point, nothing to cry over.


LOL... the point of this thread? I guess I really wasn't aware that it had one, other than you can't actually play 3dMark2005...

 

[TGS]

Honestly my 6800gt AGP works fine at 4xAA 8XAF at 1280x1024 in most games. Though they reason I want to move to a 7800 is for TSAA. I would love nothing more to once again up my IQ comparision bar with some AA that actually took care of what conventional AA does not. Far-cry, along with BF2 and WoW to a lesser extent all could use some TSAA to improve the overall IQ. Nothing wrong with raising the bar with new technology. If I didn't care about those advances(that are only on a pice card right now) I would still be using my Steath III huddled in Q3, playing at 800x600 with the lowest settings.

Edit:

Also put up some game benches. I'm sure someone can put up scores from a equally clocked A64 or X2, that will put your XP to shame.

 

[SneakyStuff]

I'm only using AGP now because my graphics card is AGP, and it does everything I want ot to do (nicely I might add). When it comes time for me to upgrade though, needless to say I will be getting a PCI-E system. Why? More expansion options. It isn't that big a deal to move up, really.

 

[Killrose]

I have to be able to play 1024x768 with 4xAA 8xAF as a miinimum, when and if I can't, then I will move on. The 7800 is not the fastest card around because it is PCI-e, it is because it is the 7800.