Long term plan for the US and the Middle East

IvIagik

Member
Dec 27, 2000
51
0
0
With the recent events, I've thought more and more about what America needs to do about Terror and the Middle East as a whole. Our reasons for heavy involvement in the Middle East comes down to 2 things in my opinion:

One is general stability in the region. Second, and more importantly is our reliance on oil. Maybe now is the time for Americans to start pushing for an alternate energy source. Cut our oil dependance, and we can let the region rot. In a generation or two, our sons and daughters need never care about some crazed fanatic hating us as the "Great Satan".

Of course, there are those people who's very existance is bent on our destruction. These people, much like rabid animals, must be destroyed. Just throwing out some thoughts.:
 

Jfur

Diamond Member
Jul 9, 2001
6,044
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0
I agree about the alternate sources of energy. For example those electric hybrid cars would be a great place to start.
 

IvIagik

Member
Dec 27, 2000
51
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0
And an important thing to note is, we most definately need an energy source which is a cheap alternative to oil. I dont want to see fanatical evironmentalists turning America into another California. While I do admire the ultimate goal of conservationalists, there are certain compromises to be made between maintaining our lifestyle and protecting the Earth. Just my opnion.
 

Aelus

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2000
1,159
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There should be new marshall plans created for countries where the people live in poverty, unfortunately, this would cost so much that we won't sacrifice a piece of our wealth to give billions others a better way of life, and alot of our wealth is built upon the poverty of others, where children have to work at extremely low wages to provide us with cheap products. sad really, but i don't see it change

Aelus
 

Pocatello

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,754
2
76
If the Palestinians stop fighting with Israel, perhaps something can be done about their poverty. They are fighting a war that cannot be won, but there are sides that want to keep on fighting.
 

Aelus

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2000
1,159
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They are fighting because they have nothing to lose. If they give up, israel will just build more and more colonies...

i don't really know what's worse, living in a refugee camp without any goals at all in your life, or blowing up yourself for the cause...

Aelus
 

iamwiz82

Lifer
Jan 10, 2001
30,772
13
81


<< There should be new marshall plans created for countries where the people live in poverty, unfortunately, this would cost so much that we won't sacrifice a piece of our wealth to give billions others a better way of life, and alot of our wealth is built upon the poverty of others, where children have to work at extremely low wages to provide us with cheap products. sad really, but i don't see it change

Aelus
>>



you had better stop buying anything that says "Made in China/Malaysia/Pakistan/most every other country accept your own.
 

Aelus

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2000
1,159
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That's why i said 'we', i try to buy mostly EU products, but you've also got to realize that if you stop buying ie indonesian products, that those kids will starve...

it's a very difficult situation...

Aelus
 

iamwiz82

Lifer
Jan 10, 2001
30,772
13
81


<< That's why i said 'we', i try to buy mostly EU products, but you've also got to realize that if you stop buying ie indonesian products, that those kids will starve...

it's a very difficult situation...

Aelus
>>



DO you happen to have american brands such as Nike or Tommy Hilfger? Those, i believe are made in the orient
 

forouza1

Senior member
Jan 19, 2001
202
0
0
Aelus, I agree with you it is a sad state of affairs how some people are born into impoverished situations and some are born in situations where opportunities are fruitful. I think that things are going to change for the better. The world will become more and more interconnected and economies will grow in places they hadn't before.

Think about it...

American corporations have often relied on the cost effectiveness of foriegn operations. Well those countries will soon raise thier standards of living and corporations will continue to seek cheaper labor. Change is slow and sometimes feels nonexistent. But we must have hope and determination
 

Aelus

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2000
1,159
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0
iamwiz82, i don't have those, but i do own a pair of adidas, and those are made in sri lanka by children in horrible conditions too...

my consience is heavy to bear.

Aelus
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Aelus, are there governments in those countries, is it there duty to insure proper conditions for their citizens?

Why must you try so desperately to make everything the fault of the Americans?
 

Aurianne

Member
Jun 8, 2001
58
0
0
Aelus don't you understand that when you buy products you support the workers who made them regardless of where they live and help them by providing money which allows them to better their lives? Buying their products is a good thing not a bad thing! If they can't sell their product then they have NO chance at all of improving their standard of living.

The cost of their goods will rise right along with their standard of living as their wages rise. You're probably too young to remember when "made in Japan" meant cheap trinkets and even cheaper cars. Do you see cheap Japanese cars now? International trade is the best way to elevate the poor out of poverty my friend. America is NOT holding these people in poverty by importing their goods but rather is helping them OUT of poverty.
 

Aelus

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2000
1,159
0
0
etech, where did i said it was americas fault? i said it was the fault of the entire western world, that includes the EU, where i live. Also, some of those governments are dictatorships which were installed by the west as well.


Aurianne, that's easy to say, but when you're looking at a product, don't you feel for the 8 year old who made it for 10 cents an hour? I do try to buy products that guarantee it was made at a fair price, like coffee and bananas btw.

Aelus

 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
"Also, some of those governments are dictatorships which were installed by the west as well."

Which countries?
 

Aurianne

Member
Jun 8, 2001
58
0
0
Aelus I'd feel sad if 8 year old kids were forced to work by their families anywhere but on the other hand I don't think any of us can honestly say that all products produced outside the west are being produced under such horrible circumstances at all so I don't think we should boycott buying goods.

Not long ago I found a hot deal post on a different board that led me to a web site where some people in an African village had started an industry of making sandals from the treads of tires and using their local leather. The young people of this community had nothing to hope for before starting this industry. No chance of attending school beyond a few years worth and no hope for a future free of poverty.

Now they created a market for their products, they earn money for producing the products, they are bringing foreign dollars into their community, employing sandal makers, buying the leather from the herders etc and now their siblings and their families have hope for a much better future.

Tell me please what hope there would be if people who thought the way you do refuse to buy their products?
 

Aelus

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2000
1,159
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etech, i'm not very informed in the southeastern asia situation, but southern korea strikes come to my mind, back when the country was governed by a pseudo dictator, who was ruthless in putting down strikes of people who were fighting for a better wage.

Aurianna, that example is still a major difference with western companies who have every benefit to keep the wages down, and will do about anything to prevent this. I know a prime example of this, a belgian company who made fabrics was working in morocco because there were lower wages there, just shut down their plant, and moved all their machines to albania, because the demands of wages were getting too high, all those people are now unemployed. and have little chance to find a job, because alot of other companies did the same, they just shut down, and moved to a cheaper place. All those people are now unemployed, and have no way to feed their families.

Aelus
 

Cyberian

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2000
9,999
1
0


<< etech, i'm not very informed in the southeastern asia situation, but southern korea strikes come to my mind, back when the country was governed by a pseudo dictator, who was ruthless in putting down strikes of people who were fighting for a better wage.

Aurianna, that example is still a major difference with western companies who have every benefit to keep the wages down, and will do about anything to prevent this. I know a prime example of this, a belgian company who made fabrics was working in morocco because there were lower wages there, just shut down their plant, and moved all their machines to albania, because the demands of wages were getting too high, all those people are now unemployed. and have little chance to find a job, because alot of other companies did the same, they just shut down, and moved to a cheaper place. All those people are now unemployed, and have no way to feed their families.

Aelus
>>


Then "we" (the western world) are bastards if we build factories and employ people, and we are bastards if we close the factories?
 

Aelus

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2000
1,159
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0
Cyberian, excuse me for having a conscience, i'm just trying to help to make the world a better place. Do you have any suggestions on how to make the world a better place? how about we just abuse the rest of the world as much as we can, and not listen to their cries of misery, that shouldn't be too hard, no? i believe we saw what happened with that reaction last week.

Aelus
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
I know a prime example of this, a belgian company who made fabrics was working in morocco because there were lower wages there, just shut down their plant, and moved all their machines to albania, because the demands of wages were getting too high, all those people are now unemployed. and have little chance to find a job, because alot of other companies did the same, they just shut down, and moved to a cheaper place. All those people are now unemployed, and have no way to feed their families.


Should the company be allowed to be broken by the employees?

Also, the people in Albania now have jobs.

Many times the economic climate affects how a company operates in a country or area.
 

HowardStern

Banned
Jun 28, 2001
1,124
1
0
Here is my long term plan for the middle east:

Let's start burning alternative fuels in our cars. We should make as much (Methanol, Ethanol, or whatever) so that we don't have to import oil at all (or even export it). Effectively take the money out of oil.

Now for my short term plan for the middle east "Kill Araba, Kill Arabs!".


 

Aelus

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2000
1,159
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0
I guess it comes down to the discussion of communism vs capitalism, and i'm against both pure forms, since both types don't care about the "common man".

Aelus
 

LaBang

Golden Member
Jan 31, 2001
1,571
0
0
Great points. Americans must stand up against our oil consumption. It is our weakest link. Hybrid cars, wind energy and the like is what we want now! I'm writting my state officials about it today!

>>"Of couse there are those who's very existence is bent on our destruction."

In this case it is our own president and the oil lobby.In the comming days our government will absolutely want to press for more drilling in the US because we are at war. But we know that the oil extruded our take years to reach the market. Nor will it reduce our dependence on foreign oil. We need to endoflife oil (energy and plastics).
Read about global warming and energy.

Here is a letter than I got yesterday form the NRDC (c sig) saying what they are planning to do on this EXACT issue.

-------- Letter --------

Dear BioGems Defender,

Our hearts go out to those of you in NRDC's extended family of 600,000
Members and online activists who have suffered the loss of loved ones
or colleagues in the terrible events of September 11th.

As you may know, NRDC is headquartered in New York City, with one of
our field offices in Washington, D.C. Thankfully, our staff and
immediate families are all safe and accounted for. But we have friends
who are missing, and we share in the grief that has stricken all
Americans in the aftermath of this tragedy.

I wanted to share a few thoughts with you about the work that lies
ahead for NRDC and our BioGems Campaign. With your ongoing
partnership, we are determined to put our unique expertise to work for
the common good in this time of crisis.

As Americans, we must now join together in shaping a strong response
to terrorism. For NRDC that means advocating policies that will
immediately begin reducing our nation's dependence on oil, whether
imported or domestic. **That is the single most important thing that
we, as environmentalists, can do to ensure America's national security
and environmental security.**

America's unchecked consumption of oil has become a national Achilles
heel. It constrains our military options in the face of terror. It
leaves our economy dangerously vulnerable to price shocks. It invites
environmental degradation, ecological disasters, and potentially
catastrophic climate change.

Don't be surprised in the days ahead to hear some in Washington call
for a massive increase in domestic oil drilling in order to achieve
national security. They ignore one crucial fact: our nation simply
doesn't have enough oil reserves to drill our way to self-sufficiency
or to affect oil prices, which are set on the world market. We control
only 3 percent of the world's oil reserves -- a mere drop in the
bucket -- but we consume a staggering 25 percent of the world's oil
supply.

Even if we developed every potential oil deposit in America --
including the Arctic Wildlife Refuge, Greater Yellowstone, the
California coast and other endangered wildlands -- we'd still be
importing oil, still be paying worldwide prices for domestic oil, and
still be leaving ourselves vulnerable to supply disruptions.

Is there an alternative? Yes. We can reduce our out-of-control
appetite for fossil fuels. We can rely on smarter and cleaner ways to
power our economy. For 30 years, NRDC has been proving that energy
efficiency and alternative energy technologies can save billions of
barrels of oil, while benefiting our health, our pocketbooks and our
environment.

I want you to know that, in the months to come, NRDC will be a leading
advocate for an energy future that reduces this dangerous addiction to
oil and increases our reliance on cleaner alternatives spawned by
American ingenuity. That is our very best hope -- our only hope --
for getting us on a self-reliant energy path toward lasting national
and environmental security.

In the meantime, I hope you are able to take extra time with those you
love, and to begin the healing we all so urgently need.

Sincerely,

John H. Adams
President
NRDC

=====

BioGems: Saving Endangered Wild Places
A project of the Natural Resources Defense Council
http://www.savebiogems.org
Letter --------
 

Cyberian

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2000
9,999
1
0


<< Cyberian, excuse me for having a conscience, i'm just trying to help to make the world a better place. Do you have any suggestions on how to make the world a better place? how about we just abuse the rest of the world as much as we can, and not listen to their cries of misery, that shouldn't be too hard, no? i believe we saw what happened with that reaction last week.

Aelus
>>


Apparently you missed my point. I see no correlation between my question and having a conscience.
You are blaming us for building factories and paying low wages.
You are then blaming us for removing the factories and basically returning the area to the position it was in before.
What is it that you would have us do?

 

Aelus

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2000
1,159
0
0
Even though people are considered production materials, they are still people, not just some machine you can start and stop at any given time. I don't really like the current state of the western world where people aren't considered anymore valuable than robots, who are disposable because they might be able to increase their profit a bit.

Aelus
 
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