Looking for a surround-sound setup, budget ~$500

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
Hey AT-ers,

I'm interested in setting up surround-sound in my apartment. I have a nice 50-inch plasma, but the sound output is less than ideal. So instead of getting just two speakers and a sub, I might as well get the whole experience.

I would like to spend less than $500, although if there's some kind of huge difference I could spend a little more.

I understand that I need at least 5 speakers, a sub and a receiver, and some cable wiring (does it come in white?).

I'm not looking for movie-theatre quality (I live in an apartment complex...I shouldn't make too much noise), and I am in no way an audiophile, I just want a basic setup that will give me at least a little bass (my TV produces pretty much none) and surround-sound.
 

slashbinslashbash

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
1,945
8
81
You sort of have 2 basic choices. First is a "HTIB" or "Home Theater In a Box" which will include everything (speakers, sub, receiver/processor, etc.) all in one go. It is not hard to find these in the $300-$500 range. They will work for your needs, but they are not very good in any regard (speakers are sub-par, receiver is sub-par). Think of this as the "Celeron System" answer. It is hard to give specific recommendations here because the manfacturers pump these things out like candy. My best advice there is just to go with what looks nice and has speakers that are easy to wall-mount and go with your decor.

Your other option is to go a bit more separate. In this price range, you'll most likely be looking at a receiver + a speaker set (which will come with a powered sub). There are lots of options out there that will bring you to the $600-$650 range. There are quite a few decent sub/sat sets for $400 (BestBuy.com shows a Klipsch and a Polk for $399; my preference would be for the Energy 5.1 Take Classic from Amazon.com at $399). Then you need a receiver. The Denon AVR-391 and Onkyo TX-NR308 are both $250 on Crutchfield.com, and it looks like one or both is the same price at Best Buy.

Option 2A, as it were, is to buy used gear. I do this all the time and I have gotten some great deals. You ought to be able to find stuff for half of what I listed above. It will be older, but most likely sufficient for your needs. It is not hard to find a used home theater receiver for $100 or less at pawnshops or on CraigsList. Cheap speakers are easy to find as well, as well as full HTIB setups. Seriously, you could probably walk in to your closest pawnshop and find several HTIB sets for under $200.

Probably what I'd do, personally, with a $500 budget is buy the Energy speakers from Amazon and find a $100 receiver at a pawn shop.

Speaker wires can come in white, but they are more expensive on the whole. Best to just paint the cheap stuff. As long as you're not moving the cables around, plain spraypaint ought to work fine. Over time, it will flake off (especially where the cables bend) but hey, you can just re-paint it. Best way to "hide" the wires is to stuff it in the corner between the carpet and baseboard until you reach a good vertical spot (corner or door jamb) to do the vertical run; then run it horizontally where the wall meets the ceiling. Chances are your front (left/right/center) speakers will not require too much wire-hiding.
 
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Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
Thanks for the very helpful advice - that energy speaker set looks pretty nice.

Is there a specific receiver I should buy? I see some used ones on Amazon but I worry about longevity. I should also say that I plan on attaching 4 devices to the receiver - TV, PS3, Wii, computer. All are HDMI except for the Wii which is component.
 

slashbinslashbash

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
1,945
8
81
Thanks for the very helpful advice - that energy speaker set looks pretty nice.

Is there a specific receiver I should buy? I see some used ones on Amazon but I worry about longevity. I should also say that I plan on attaching 4 devices to the receiver - TV, PS3, Wii, computer. All are HDMI except for the Wii which is component.

Ok, thanks for including that info, I should have asked. That certainly makes things a bit harder. Really you are hooking up 3 devices as inputs, and 1 as output. The output is taken for granted. You need 2 HDMI inputs and 1 Component input. Ideally you will find a receiver that has HDMI up-conversion, i.e. it will take the Component Input and route it to the HDMI output so that you only have a single HDMI cable running to your TV. This is common in pricier receivers, but it has yet to trickle down to the sub-$300 receiver set, AFAIK. If you can find a used Onkyo TX-SR605 or TX-SR606, they definitely have it, and the Onkyo 60X line has been my sub-$500 receiver recommendation for years. You can find the current-gen TS-XR608 for $430 on Amazon. Finding a 605 or 606 for <$300 should be do-able. Looks like there is currently a used 605 on eBay for $275 BIN with free shipping. Only problem with the 605 is that it only has 2 HDMI inputs, so you're fine for now (PC and PS3) but future HDMI sources will be left out or relegated to component video.

If you don't get a receiver with HDMI up-conversion, you will have to run component *AND* HDMI from the receiver to the TV, and you will have to switch inputs on the TV itself when you want to play the Wii. While this is hardly a tragedy, it is hardly ideal either. If you do decide to go this route, pretty much any receiver with HDMI "repeater" and component video switching will work. Check to make sure -- some companies are eliminating component video now that HDMI is around.

For the wires, use Monoprice.com. For the speaker wires, get the 16AWG copper wire -- it's $12 for 100ft, which should be more than enough for an apartment. There is no need to spend tons of money on speaker wires. Plain 16 gauge copper wire is plenty for most purposes -- you can likely find it locally as well. Also, get enough HDMI cables to hook everything up. If you've already got everything hooked up to your TV, you should just need one extra HDMI cable (and another component cable if your receiver doesn't do HDMI up-conversion).
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
Go with old style Klipsch if you have the room. I am running Quartets, Academy and RS25's for surround. My dad just picked up a set of Chorus II's and an Academy...he's not sure for surround yet.

We are both running the Emotiva Ultra 12 sub. It was only $370 shipped last month.
 

slashbinslashbash

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
1,945
8
81
Would a receiver like this one work?

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-STR-DH510...1633036&amp;sr=1-3

I don't care about switching TV inputs, for my Wii, it's what I do now anyway, and three HDMI ports are fine.

That one will work just fine. Sony receivers aren't especially well regarded (IMO for good reason -- the power output ratings are horribly over-stated) but that one will certainly be sufficient for your needs in an apartment, and the price is very good for the features.
 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
That one will work just fine. Sony receivers aren't especially well regarded (IMO for good reason -- the power output ratings are horribly over-stated) but that one will certainly be sufficient for your needs in an apartment, and the price is very good for the features.

Cool - I figure in the future when I want to upgrade to a big boy's receiver I can just pass this one off to a needy friend or my parents

Thanks for all your help.
 

SlickSnake

Diamond Member
May 29, 2007
5,237
2
0
RUUUNNNN, don't walk to here:

http://stores.ebay.com/Harman-Audio

Everything they sell here is fully covered under warranty, receivers 2 years and speakers for 5. And you can get quality gear for 1/2 to 3/4s off retail. Some stuff is actually NEW, but they have to sell it all listed as refurbs to make the retailers happy.

I don't know why certain people lurking here in thie forum don't direct more people looking for amazing sounding and dirt cheap refurb gear to Harman Audio on feebay, but you obviously have your hidden reasons, like stock in Onkyo or Sony maybe? You are doing a disservice to posters by recommending junky audio gear with laughable spring clip speaker connectors and can only run ONE or TWO channel 100 watt audio PEAKS x 7 (NOT 100 watts x 7 CONTINUOUSLY LoL!) for $250 retail. And still you seriously believe this is somehow better than a receiver in a boxed HT package with speakers for $600? You are talking about the same piece of receiver junk here, with just a different model number.

Right now, you can pick up a dirt cheap AVR 254's and 354's for around 2/3s or more off retail, and you won't be sorry you did later, like you might be buying crappy garbage that lies about the watts per channel and that retails for $250 NEW.

I recommend any of the Infinity speakers there, but the JBL's and even the Harman Kardon speaker in a box sets are all born from the same golden loins of Harman Kardon.

The selection there varies very quickly, and most auctions are only 1-3 day auctions, so you can score cheap and quick, like a pro. Look at their feed backs to see what closes and for how much to give yourself a rough price guide for what you want before bidding and buying.

Good luck!
 
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alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
Lots of good deals there SlickSnake for a $500 budget those AVR's are a good choice.
 

s44

Diamond Member
Oct 13, 2006
9,427
16
81
Absolute no on those last-gen HKs.

They produce good power but the HDMI bugs are infamous. If your particular setup ends up not hitting one, fine, but they're on massive discount for a reason.

No on Sony too. Sony, Yamaha, and non-Elite Pioneer produce hilariously low power compared to their ratings.

Refurb Onkyos at a4less are a deal. Consider the 576 (7.1, no HD bitstreaming), 507 (only 5.1 but better Audyssey), 606 (only the older Audyssey but 7.1 and upconverts component signals to HDMI), and RC160 (all of the above, but a bit more $).
 

slashbinslashbash

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
1,945
8
81
I don't know why certain people lurking here in thie forum don't direct more people looking for amazing sounding and dirt cheap refurb gear to Harman Audio on feebay, but you obviously have your hidden reasons, like stock in Onkyo or Sony maybe? You are doing a disservice to posters by recommending junky audio gear with laughable spring clip speaker connectors and can only run ONE or TWO channel 100 watt audio PEAKS x 7 (NOT 100 watts x 7 CONTINUOUSLY LoL!) for $250 retail. And still you seriously believe this is somehow better than a receiver in a boxed HT package with speakers for $600? You are talking about the same piece of receiver junk here, with just a different model number.

Are you referring to me, there? First off, I did not recommend the Sony, the OP brought it up and I said it would meet his purposes. Secondly, Onkyo is one of the few mass-market brands that I have seen third-party tests actually validate their WPC ratings. Of course that is not hard to do with h/k because they rate their receivers at 50WPC or something low like that anyway. Thirdly, I have always personally disliked the h/k aesthetic and the materials choices on their receivers. They just look and feel junky to me. That cheesy ring "knob" for volume is just weird. On the other hand, I am a big JBL fan and I recognize that they're under the same parent company -- but that still has never made me like harman/kardon.

Also, you are the one who has been pumping those HA auctions in threads in this forum. I recommend Onkyo because I have had good experiences with them. I own a 703, and I got my grandparents and uncle to buy 606's and they have been great. I previously owned a Denon receiver and had it in for repairs twice. Before that was Technics (and I still own those receivers -- again, one of the few brands with 3rd party tests showing their amps at or above listed power ratings) and they have been great, but sadly that line has been discontinued by Matsushita/Panasonic.

Until your post made me look it up, I was never aware that Onkyo was a publicly traded company. (I was also unaware that Energy has been owned by Klipsch since 2006. I still remember when the original Take 5 came out, and what a stir they caused in the market.)

s44 -- thanks for the link to those refurb Onkyos! Some awesome deals in there! OP -- I would definitely recommend the refurb Onkyo TX-SR606 at $230 from accessories4less.com.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
Absolute no on those last-gen HKs.

They produce good power but the HDMI bugs are infamous. If your particular setup ends up not hitting one, fine, but they're on massive discount for a reason.

No on Sony too. Sony, Yamaha, and non-Elite Pioneer produce hilariously low power compared to their ratings.

Refurb Onkyos at a4less are a deal. Consider the 576 (7.1, no HD bitstreaming), 507 (only 5.1 but better Audyssey), 606 (only the older Audyssey but 7.1 and upconverts component signals to HDMI), and RC160 (all of the above, but a bit more $).

hmmm I am not sure where you get that on Yamahas...also some non-Elite Pioneers have "elite' amp sections.

Those Onkyos are a good bang for buck though. Also at the $500 total build level one should be willing to forgo HDMI...also 5.1 is a much easy setup for most people. If you have your couch on a back wall 7.1 isn't really going to work.
 
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Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
I've read some really horrible things about Onkyo's and their reliability.

I don't need power, in fact I will never turn up the sound too much in my apartment because it would probably bother my neighbors. Unless you tell me the Sony is going to crap out in a year just like the Onkyo's do, I'll stick with the Sony.
 

VulgarDisplay

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2009
6,193
2
76
I've read some really horrible things about Onkyo's and their reliability.

I don't need power, in fact I will never turn up the sound too much in my apartment because it would probably bother my neighbors. Unless you tell me the Sony is going to crap out in a year just like the Onkyo's do, I'll stick with the Sony.

The only problems I've heard of people having with onkyo is overheating, and I would be willing to be money they have shit piled on top of the vents. All while being locked in a cabinet.
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,271
323
126
Damn Harman and their ebay store. If they sold Revel and Crown I would be ecstatic. But instead they just carry their entry-level brands.

The only problems I've heard of people having with onkyo is overheating, and I would be willing to be money they have shit piled on top of the vents. All while being locked in a cabinet.

The overheating thing is overblown and most of that reputation was built on the TX-SRxx5 series. That generation had absurdly large amplifiers for their price class. The 805 was $600 and weighed 53lbs. The FTC rated the amps to 900W (your typical Denon, HK, Yamaha, or Pioneer is rated 300-350W by the FTC). That generation was a disaster in some ways because they basically packed power amps into mid-fi receivers but didn't build in large enough heatsinks. For example, a similarly powered Yamaha Z11 weighs nearly 80lbs.

Since then Onkyo has shed about 30 percent of its receiver mass by reducing its amplifier sizes. Although at 40lbs for their mid-fi receivers, they are still a lot bigger than their competitors.
 
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alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
my dad had an Onkyo with integrated changer. It was a well-known failure between the two units that cost a few hundred to fix. Failed about every 1-2 years.

Every manufacturer has some lemons. Sony, Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, Pioneer, and Harmon Kardon are all safe choices.

At $500 I'd get a decent reciever from one of the sites above and then the best speaker package you can afford with the difference.

Do you need a DVD/BluRay player too?

You can get white cables, I am assuming you are just talking speaker wire and that one is easy to find. I'd check Monoprice vs your local Radio Shack on that. You don't need very heavy gauge for what you are doing.
 

SlickSnake

Diamond Member
May 29, 2007
5,237
2
0
Are you referring to me, there? First off, I did not recommend the Sony, the OP brought it up and I said it would meet his purposes. Secondly, Onkyo is one of the few mass-market brands that I have seen third-party tests actually validate their WPC ratings. Of course that is not hard to do with h/k because they rate their receivers at 50WPC or something low like that anyway. Thirdly, I have always personally disliked the h/k aesthetic and the materials choices on their receivers. They just look and feel junky to me. That cheesy ring "knob" for volume is just weird. On the other hand, I am a big JBL fan and I recognize that they're under the same parent company -- but that still has never made me like harman/kardon.

Also, you are the one who has been pumping those HA auctions in threads in this forum. I recommend Onkyo because I have had good experiences with them. I own a 703, and I got my grandparents and uncle to buy 606's and they have been great. I previously owned a Denon receiver and had it in for repairs twice. Before that was Technics (and I still own those receivers -- again, one of the few brands with 3rd party tests showing their amps at or above listed power ratings) and they have been great, but sadly that line has been discontinued by Matsushita/Panasonic.

Until your post made me look it up, I was never aware that Onkyo was a publicly traded company. (I was also unaware that Energy has been owned by Klipsch since 2006. I still remember when the original Take 5 came out, and what a stir they caused in the market.)

s44 -- thanks for the link to those refurb Onkyos! Some awesome deals in there! OP -- I would definitely recommend the refurb Onkyo TX-SR606 at $230 from accessories4less.com.

As a matter of fact, I was not just singling you out, and if I was, I would have quoted you.

I read plenty of threads on here, and on most I don't bother to reply, and you are by no means the only poster directing people to pay $250 for junky crap receivers or budget buy Polk speakers that sound like the $150 bucks a pair they pay at Fry's for "supposedly" $300 each retail towers. That's not a deal, it's total low end crap that is made to sell at 2/3s -3/4s off retail to generate sales for the manufacturers. They probably sell 1000 to 1 crap versus their top of the line components, do the math. Most people who buy looking for just cheap and not quality are just happy it even turns on and makes noise, and aren't going to come back here complaining about poor sound or bad advice unless it burns up a month out of warranty.

You won't find NEW H/K gear heavily discounted unless it's a model closeout. And even their budget $350 receiver can kick the snot out of any POS lying about 100x7 at that price range. Not only does H/K not lie about power output, they UNDERRATE it, meaning, that 50 watt x7 is actually capable of putting out 70x7 or so continuous. Which is usually more than that comparable 100x7 junker is even putting out when it's ACTUALLY rated at 50x7 (or less) CONTINUOUS power output at 8 ohms using no hocus-pocus marketing gimmicks. You get what you pay for, or don't pay more for. A $250 receiver with a puny REAL power output might be just fine to run small 2 way satellites placed in a 5 or 7 speaker array. Just don't be naive enough to pretend it will run even the cheapest budget buy Polk towers at reasonable audio levels without clipping and distortion. It won't, and it's not designed to.

The FTC and the FCC wanted to get involved with standardizing deceptive multi channel amplifier power ratings listed by MOST audio manufacturers a few years ago, and at the time various companies told them, more or less, to butt out of their power output marketing fantasies. But a similar rule put into effect about 30 years ago covers 2 channel STEREO amps ONLY. So a lack of testing and certification standardization on multi channel amps results in most makers claiming anything they want on multi channel receivers or amplifiers power output ratings. The fact is, an H/K amplifier can be expected to reliably run varying speaker loads at high powers down to 2 ohms without burning up or shutting down.

And the claimed problems with H/K not playing nice over HDMI with some HDMI devices that are NOT HDMI CERTIFIED, might be true, but you will run into every single manufacturer having various problems with HDMI devices that some makers are too cheap to have certified. Just go to any audio forum site or even Amazon and read all the HDMI complaints for any manufacturers. Why is this happening? Because the mass consumer market supports the dump and run mentality, with new models coming out yearly so there is no incentive to have low or mid range gear possibly held up in the HDMI certification process. And a simple software upgrade might not fix an incompatible hardware problem with a certified receiver and an an uncertified device, or even 2 uncertified HDMI devices. But on gear that's only doing an HDMI pass through, you also wouldn't expect any problems. The HDMI issues normally arise with handshaking, decoding and converting the HDMI signal. No company can possibly expect to be compatible with every single HDMI device out there, and isn't.

I have not had any previous problems with regard to HDMI compatibilities on my H/K gear. And I have used H/K and Infinity speakers for over 10 years with excellent reliability on new and refurbs. And I have 2 HTs full of their gear. And I have personally known people in the last 30 years who have bought Sony, Yamaha, Pioneer, Kenwood, Marantz, Sanyo, and even Onkyo components and had them fail and trashed slightly outside whatever warranty they had. And I even went to houses to debug sound system problems while discovering this. But the people who I know that bought Denon or H/K gear have no sob stories. Obviously, they fail too, but in much smaller numbers.

And while 1 person might not like the large illuminated volume knob on H/K receivers, 100 more might love it. So if you are deciding on buying gear based on your dislike of an illuminated volume knob, maybe you shouldn't be recommending audio gear here in the first place. And I think the illuminated volume knob looks just fine, but it's how it SOUNDS as well as reliability that's important, don't you think?
 
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alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
My dad was looking at buying the upper Polks because they were new and looked nice for the price. He was targeting <$1000 all in for speakers. He was looking at the Pioneer Elite SC27 and I reeled him in on the Denon AVR-990. He upgraded his 27" CRT TV to a Visio LED 55" LCD on sale, I suggested a Sharp Aquos for a little less, but in the end he cash and carried vs shipped and hoped so it was a good deal. It does have a nice picture.

However on the speakers he decided to risk used. He is running Chorus II and an Academy only. They had company recently and they commented on how nice the TV sounds.
 
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