Looking for some help with a battery issue

[purbeast0]

Yesterday my car was struggling to startup and eventually it wouldn't startup. And when I mean "wouldn't startup" I am meaning like it tries to startup with the "chug" and it just stops, like the standard thing that happens with a weak battery.

I checked the voltage on the battery with a multimeter and it was reading 12.18v which afterwards, I found out is low.

After jumping it I drove it around for a bit and kept it on for at least 40 minutes. Before I cut it off I took another voltage reading with the car on, and it read 14.47v or around there. After some research, it seems like if it's giving out that reading with the car on, that my alternator is okay. I then shut it off for the night and never cut it back on. This was last night.

This morning I got up and tested out the voltage before turning it on, and it was at 12.17v. I thought hmm okay odd. I tried to start the car and it started up with a VERY minimal hiccup. I figured it was okay and went to the gym.

90 minutes later when I tried to leave, it wouldn't startup again. Eventually I got it jumped and got home. Later on I took the battery out and saw that it had a manufacture date of 01/21 and it was a DieHard gold from Advanced Auto Parts, which is still under warranty. It says that it is a 640 CCA battery.

I took it to the shop and they tested it out. Their first reading say "charge and retest" and the CCA reading was like 380 CCA or something. So they put it on the fast charge which took like 40 minutes or so and they tested it again.

I saw the screen and it said "Good" with a voltage reading of 12.67v and the CCA was reading 589. So I took it on my way.

When I got home I checked the voltage with my multimeter and it was reading 12.54v. I thought okay maybe our readings are just different because of the different machines. Then like 15 minutes later I checked it again and it was 12.53v.

Well a couple hours later it is 12.50v now.

So my question is, is this normal for batteries to lose voltage like that when just sitting? It's not even in my car - it's just sitting out in my kitchen. I wasn't driving my car until tomorrow anyways so I decided I'd keep it out tonight so I can see what it reads in the morning, in case it's low again and I didn't want to have to put it in and take it out again. I was thinking if it drained back down to around 12.18v overnight, then I'd take it back to the store and tell them that it drained while it wasn't even in my car, but again, not sure if this voltage dropping is normal or not.

And if this is normal, what could other culprits be since it seems like the alternator is working based on the readings of my multimeter while the car was on? I'm not very mechanically inclined so maybe I'm off and it could be the alternator still. But if not, and the battery is actually "good", then what else could it be?

FWIW, this is for a 2008 Infiniti G37S.

 

[RLGL]

Have you checked the system for a parasitic draw?

 

[BoomerD]

Kind of sounds like you have a dead cell...time for a new battery.

 

[esquared]

If you have AAA, they sell their batteries pretty cheap and install for free. They come out to work or home. I had a AAA battery go bad in less than 2 years IIRC. They came to my work and installed a new battery.

 

[purbeast0]

Have you checked the system for a parasitic draw?

What is that?

Kind of sounds like you have a dead cell...time for a new battery.

Would this come up in that test they run at those stores or no? Is there any way I can prove that since it's under warranty?

If you have AAA, they sell their batteries pretty cheap and install for free. They come out to work or home. I had a AAA battery go bad in less than 2 years IIRC. They came to my work and installed a new battery.

Well it's still under warranty so if it's bad, I want my free one lol. Installing one is no issue it takes like 5 minutes.

 

[esquared]

I was under the impression they (store) told you it was still good. If you're dropping that much voltage down to 12.17 overnight after driving/charging for 40 minutes, you have a bad battery. As boomer said above, probably a cracked cell.
Get them to give you another battery. If they balk, you still need to buy another one which is why I suggested AAA. I ought one this summer which was 50.00 cheaper than O'Reilly's, or Auto zone.

 

[purbeast0]

I was under the impression they (store) told you it was still good. If you're dropping that much voltage down to 12.17 overnight after driving/charging for 40 minutes, you have a bad battery. As boomer said above, probably a cracked cell.
Get them to give you another battery. If they balk, you still need to buy another one which is why I suggested AAA. I ought one this summer which was 50.00 cheaper than O'Reilly's, or Auto zone.

Gotcha.

Yeah if tomorrow it's low again then I'm going back with the battery and talking to them again about it. I checked earlier and it was down to 12.47v.

So I'm guessing based on what you all said, that it dropping voltage like this is NOT normal then?

 

[crashtech]

Parasitic draw has to be diagnosed with an ammeter. Such a thing seems a candidate since the battery is fairly new. Typically in these situations I would ask if any installations or modifications have been done to the vehicle, however minor.

 

[esquared]

Gotcha.

Yeah if tomorrow it's low again then I'm going back with the battery and talking to them again about it. I checked earlier and it was down to 12.47v.

So I'm guessing based on what you all said, that it dropping voltage like this is NOT normal then?

To tell you the truth, I've never monitored a battery's voltage overnight. I think a battery's sitting voltage is 12.6v or a little greater (2.1vcell x 6cells). A drop from 12.6-12 7v to below 12.2 IMO, isn't normal. To me that means it's not holding the charge.

See what it reads tomorrow morning.

 

[purbeast0]

To tell you the truth, I've never monitored a battery's voltage overnight. I think a battery's sitting voltage is 12.6v or a little greater (2.1vcell x 6cells). A drop from 12.6-12 7v to below 12.2 IMO, isn't normal. To me that means it's not holding the charge.

See what it reads tomorrow morning.

I checked it and it is at 12.44v so it wasn't as low as it's ever been.

But it dropped .10v since I got it home last night.

Is that normal? Is it worth installing this back in my car and giving it a go and it should be okay now?

@crashtech car is completely stock aside from getting new license plate lights like 2 months ago, and I got some random LED ones on ebay. Prior to that those bulbs had been out forever, but I did have a battery issue somewhat similar a couple months ago as well, but it kind of resolved itself after I got it jump started. I thought that maybe I left a door ajar overnight or something since it worked fine after.

 

[repoman0]

I checked it and it is at 12.44v so it wasn't as low as it's ever been.

Sitting on the counter still? Lead acid batteries will slowly self-discharge, but not that quickly if they are still good. A battery in good condition should take a few months at least to self discharge on a shelf to the point where it won't start the car. Also 12.2V is still ~half charged so should start the car if the battery is good. Get the shop to warranty it.

 

[purbeast0]

Sitting on the counter still? Lead acid batteries will slowly self-discharge, but not that quickly if they are still good. A battery in good condition should take a few months at least to self discharge on a shelf to the point where it won't start the car. Also 12.2V is still ~half charged so should start the car if the battery is good. Get the shop to warranty it.

Yeah it has literally been sitting on my counter in my kitchen since last night at 6pm.

I saw the test result at the store and it showed 12.67v on there around like 5:40pm.

Then I got home and tested it right away with my multimeter and it was at 12.54v.

And this morning, like 14 hours later, it's reading 12.44v.

So yeah, .10v discharged in 10 hours. I assumed it was just like normal batteries that keep their charge.

I'm still a bit confused by the whole CCA thing and how it relates to the voltage. When I bring it back to the store and they test it, since the voltage has dropped by .10v, should I expect to see the CCA has also dropped from the 589 that it reported on the test?

 

[crashtech]

I was never taught that slight dissipation of a surface charge is indicative of a problem. Not to say that it isn't, but performance under load is a more accurate way of testing a car battery, imo. If the battery can start the vehicle normally several times in a row with the headlamps on without sounding like it's slow to crank, you might want to look elsewhere for the moment. If your multimeter has an ammeter, you can test for excessive current drain yourself, but you have to be careful not to turn anything on in the vehicle while the ammeter is connected, or you might blow the fuse in the meter (hopefully it's fused). There will be initial draw while capacitors in the system charge up etc. Modern vehicles can drain a little on the high side but it should definitely be under 100mA.

 

[purbeast0]

I was never taught that slight dissipation of a surface charge is indicative of a problem. Not to say that it isn't, but performance under load is a more accurate way of testing a car battery, imo. If the battery can start the vehicle normally several times in a row with the headlamps on without sounding like it's slow to crank, you might want to look elsewhere for the moment. If your multimeter has an ammeter, you can test for excessive current drain yourself, but you have to be careful not to turn anything on in the vehicle while the ammeter is connected, or you might blow the fuse in the meter (hopefully it's fused). There will be initial draw while capacitors in the system charge up etc. Modern vehicles can drain a little on the high side but it should definitely be under 100mA.

I just have a standard run of the mill multi meter you get for like $20 on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KXX2OYY

Reading the reviews it sounds like it has an ammeter but with mixed results on that part of it. Which setting is the ammeter?

And is this to test for the draw in the car, where you basically connect it in line on the negative terminal and just have the car turned off?

I just checked again before sitting back down and it's reading 12.43v now. Would dropping from 12.54v to 12.43v in less than 24 hours be considered "slight dissipation" ?

And again remember, this is not even in my car. It's just sitting in my kitchen.

 

[BoomerD]

Take the battery in to wherever you bought it. Insist they charge it and do a load test. If the battery is bad, it will show right away.

 

[purbeast0]

Take the battery in to wherever you bought it. Insist they charge it and do a load test. If the battery is bad, it will show right away.

That is what they did last night. I am assuming the test they ran is a load test, it's just that handheld thing they connect to the battery and do the test with. It was at Advance Auto Parts and just their standard tool.

The first time they ran the "test" it said "charge and re-test" so they did that.

Then that test showed it as "good" on the machine. The CCA went from 3xx to 589 after the charge. The volts read 12.67v. I didn't personally see the screen when they ran it before charging, but I saw it after they ran it after the charge.

But the fact it is losing voltage just sitting in my kitchen has me concerned about it. I wasn't going anywhere last night so I decided to just keep it out and monitor it.

And I'm also wondering why it would have needed that charge and why the voltage was so low prior, since it appears my alternator is working fine based off the multimeter readings while the car was on, prior to taking it in to the store.

 

[Torn Mind]

Pop open vent caps. Dip your multimeter leads into each adjacent pair of sulfuric acid cells. Should come out to 2.1v; wired in series, there are 6 of them, hence 12.67 volts is the normal resting voltage with surface charge removed. If there is a deviation, like one cell reading 0 volts, than GG, it's toast. Neutralize acid soak leads with baking soda and rinse well to remove lead residue.
This is also a check of the water level in these cells.

After a good long charge, the residual surface charge should have your battery reading in the low 13s. If you charge up a battery, take it off the charger, test immediately, and it's reading 12.67, that is actually a sign it is toast. 12.67v is what it should be reading after sitting for a prolonged period of time.

Warranty is basically the same as insurance. The company that provides them would rather not honor it and sell their unit for full price. Advance happens to be a skirter. Autozone...better service, but they charge more in the first place.

My experience with Advance's warranty is that they know what failure modes exist to pass their "warranty test" but still leave you out of the warranty. For a starter, it may not have the cranking power to turn the engine, but still can spin without resistance, which is what happened to me. So, to get the warranty, I had to snip ALL the wires connecting the motor to the brushes, because if even one is connected, the motor will still spin.

The money battery supplier is Deka. Now, I would have recommended Batteries+Bulbs, but they're shady little bs that deserve to be run into the ground. Not only did they not refund a battery I didn't pick up, they charged again when I tried to honor the warranty.

You want to google local suppliers of Deka batteries and phone them to see if they supply them. Not easy, because East Penn doesn't list this little small businesses. I wrote down a list of some in MD but I might have misplaced it....

 

[crashtech]

I just have a standard run of the mill multi meter you get for like $20 on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KXX2OYY

Reading the reviews it sounds like it has an ammeter but with mixed results on that part of it. Which setting is the ammeter?

And is this to test for the draw in the car, where you basically connect it in line on the negative terminal and just have the car turned off?

I just checked again before sitting back down and it's reading 12.43v now. Would dropping from 12.54v to 12.43v in less than 24 hours be considered "slight dissipation" ?

And again remember, this is not even in my car. It's just sitting in my kitchen.

The three dial positions on the right are microamps, milliamps, and amps. If I was doing the test (yes, in series with the battery and vehicle) I would start with amps and switch to milliamps if the value is low enough. Not sure how accurate it will be with that meter.

As to the .11V drop overnight, I am willing to bet that you could witness that with many freshly charged lead-acid batteries. I simply don't think it is probative in this situation. But I could be wrong. It's just that there are many other tests that could be performed that would give more useful information.

It's even possible that your vehicle charging system is not doing the job. A quick and dirty consumer method of testing this would be to start your vehicle and turn everything on, headlamps, blower motor, rear defroster, everything you can think of that draws significant current. If the system voltage is still maintaining over 13.8V, vehicle idling, your charging system is probably fine.

 

[Paperdoc]

Regarding the voltages right after recharging and then overnight UNconnected, that's a poor test. When the charging was done, aside from actually increasing the battery's charge and raising its voltage, the process also heats the battery up a bit. A warm battery shows a slightly higher Voltage than a colder one. So overnight the battery cooled down, and by next day its Voltage should have been slightly lower even if it lost NO charge. How much lower? I can't really tell you, but it would be fractions of a volt.

As BoomerD suggests, what you really need is a LOAD Test. This requires a different type of equipment, NOT a small desktop meter. It is basically a large resistor box that can be attached to the battery and adjusted for various resistance values to cause a large current draw similar to what your starter motor does. Under that load, you measure the Voltage - the techs who use these have info on what a good battery should be able to do for Voltage at heavy amps loading. THAT will tell you whether the battery has a real problem, or just needs a good charge.

IF the battery itself is good, looking for parasitic loads (small power users that are constantly draining the battery slowly) is good. Use a DC Current (Amps) meter on a very LOW range for this. With the car OFF and supposedly nothing working, disconnect the battery at the negative (ground) post and insert the amp meter leads between the battery and your car chassis (Ground). Measure the actual current flowing through even though "nothing is on". It should be a very few milliamps - not over 100 mA, preferably less.

I usually check for proper charging system operation by connecting the voltmeter to the battery terminals when it has NOT been in use for a while. Note the Voltage - usually lower as you've seen. Start the car and NOTE while the starter is running what that Voltage drops to - it's a big drop of 3 to 5 Volts, but normally only briefly until the engine starts. If it's a huge drop, either the battery is worn out OR your starter has problems. Once the engine is running at IDLE, the Voltage will be higher than before starting by 1 to 2 Volts. Now, speed up the engine and the voltage should rise another Volt or so and drop back when you let it idle again.

I'll tell you two instances I have had where even these tests I did failed to tell the whole story. In the first instance, all my tests said the battery and charging system were good, but the battery still kept getting too weak to start up. Finally I took the alternator out and had it tested by a parts shop that does rebuild work, too. Turns out the alternator was faulty even though I thought its charging Voltages were OK. A replacement solved that problem.

The second issue with a different car came in winter - hard to start any car really cold. But my "good" battery could not turn the engine over fast enough to get it going. I ended up using jumper cables to connect TWO extra batteries (three total!) and it still would not work well. I told my tale to my favourite mechanic and he said immediately, "Oh, the starter is worn out. Get a new one." So I did and had him install. He showed me the flaw in the old one he had expected - a badly worn bearing sleeve on the end of the output shaft so that it wobbled when it tried to turn! That had caused so much friction it slowed the starter motor badly and it could not do its job.

 

[esquared]

I always enjoy Paperdoc's longer, yet thorough explanations.

 

[bbhaag]

Dude, just buy a mid tier battery and replace the old one. If your vehicle runs fine great but if not then take it to the shop for service.
C'mon bro.......don't make this any more complicated then it needs to be.

 

[NutBucket]

Sort of agree here. Either pay a mechanic to diagnose it for your or gamble the battery is the issue.

I don't discount the in-store testers are not the best (and that's what needs to "fail" in order for you to get a warranty replacement).

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Just poking in here. I saw the thread, read parts of it, decided I should put my Optima deep-charge AGM battery in my Trooper on the charger. I hadn't done it since last spring. So I was surprised. It was initially at 95%, took about 10 or 20 minutes to charge to 100%. All good to go, I guess!

 

[purbeast0]

So since I got it charged from the store it's been fine in my car except last night I went to use it and it didn't start.

However it was PEBCAK by me because earlier in the day when I got out of my car when I lifted my gym bag out of the car, I hit the dome light and it stayed on for some time. I didn't realize I had done that.

Since this happened I was wondering about something.

I have this portable battery charger that I got when I bought a battery powered motor for a small boat. I used it to charge the marine battery, which is like a wider car battery physically. I was wondering if something like this will actually work for charging a car battery too. This is what I have.

Minn Kota MK-105P Portable 5 AMP Battery Charger - Walmart.com

Buy Minn Kota MK-105P Portable 5 AMP Battery Charger at Walmart.com

www.walmart.com

Would I be able to use something like this to give my car battery a full slow charge overnight?

 

[crashtech]

...Would I be able to use something like this to give my car battery a full slow charge overnight?

Yes, and slow charging is actually preferable. But depending on the quality of the charger, it may not be great to leave it on there 24/7, just in case that was something you were considering.