So basically if Maduro pulls an Iranian hostage crisis? I don’t know. That’s a tough one.
What do you think the US should do if Maduro arrests our diplomats?
While America certainly has a lot of work to do on making its elections more fair you know as well as I do that they don't compare to the most recent Venezuelan election. I mean did you really think Maduro increased from 50.6% support to nearly 70% support over the last 5 years when those years have yielded an unprecedented economic collapse, mass hunger, and the continuing disintegration of society? The election was clearly a sham so no, to say he was elected means little. If anything I would say the member of the National Assembly has a stronger claim than Maduro. It was a close thing too as if you remember Maduro attempted to effectively abolish the National Assembly in 2017.
I would not support any US military involvement in Venezuela and I would not support us getting involved in any civil conflict that might arise. I am fully supportive of the US recognizing the opposition to a monster, however.
Err banning other people from running doesn't make the election invalid?
The Mexican government has a slight problem with corruption.
I don't want to try to argue that the elections in 2018 were fair, my point was more that I don't think unfair elections justify a coup. Moreover, I think we agree that the US should not intervene.
I read the article that that quote was sourced from, Maduro apparently said that parties that did not participate in the municipal elections in 2017 would not be allowed to run in 2018. I think that there's context that we're probably missing, and I'm not sure how far down the road I want to go in educating myself in the history of Venezuela electoral politics.
If the election was rigged then the outcome is illegitimate and I think there's very strong evidence that the election was rigged. In the case of an illegitimate election the Venezuelan constitution has a remedy - the head of the National Assembly becomes president. Wouldn't that mean Maduro is committing the coup?
I don't want to try to argue that the elections in 2018 were fair, my point was more that I don't think unfair elections justify a coup. Moreover, I think we agree that the US should not intervene.
I read the article that that quote was sourced from, Maduro apparently said that parties that did not participate in the municipal elections in 2017 would not be allowed to run in 2018. I think that there's context that we're probably missing, and I'm not sure how far down the road I want to go in educating myself in the history of Venezuela electoral politics.
As opposed to Brazil, who threw their popular president in jail so the fascist Bolsonaro could get elected, who now supports Guaido. Definitely not corrupt. Noteworthy that Trump and Bolsonaro, the two most prominent fascists in the Western Hemisphere, support Guaido.
I mean, is there some due process for that? Isn't that like saying if Trump and Pence committed high crimes and misdemeanors then Pelosi is president? Pelosi can't just declare herself president.
Is anyone with some insight into Venezuelan law making the argument that Guaido is in fact the lawful president? I haven't seen anyone make that argument, but I'll be happy to read it if you have a link.
Interim president until a new election is held is what Guaido said.
Presidents don't get to set presidential election rules in a democracy.
Again, it was not a proper election and Maduro is not willing to hold another election. USA <> Venezuela.That absolutely does not answer my question. Can Pelosi declare herself interim president until we have another election?
Again, it was not a proper election and Maduro is not willing to hold another election.
USA <> Venezuela.
So your argument is that a next-in-line can unilaterally declare an election invalid; themselves president; and schedule new elections? Is that what you're saying?
What on earth does that mean?
I’m unaware of any evidence that the US has given the opposition any support other than recognition? We may have, but I’m unaware of it.
Also if anything wouldn’t Maduro’s actions be the coup?
So basically if Maduro pulls an Iranian hostage crisis? I don’t know. That’s a tough one.
Now it looks like Pence pledged U.S. backing to the opposition.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-call...uncertain-new-course-in-venezuela-11548430259
"Trump administration’s secret plan pledging support for opposition leader Juan Guaidó was preconceived and tightly coordinated"
I mean, is there some due process for that? Isn't that like saying if Trump and Pence committed high crimes and misdemeanors then Pelosi is president? Pelosi can't just declare herself president.
Is anyone with some insight into Venezuelan law making the argument that Guaido is in fact the lawful president? I haven't seen anyone make that argument, but I'll be happy to read it if you have a link.
Kind of my point I guess. I don't want a military intervention either, but at what point is one rightly called for?
Letting the Venezuelans devolve into civil war doesn't threaten the United States, granted. But if they take US hostages I can see some sort of intervention as justified to extract them.
For whatever reason my normal methods of cheating around the article aren't working. What support is pledged other than recognition?
Presumably that would be the National Electoral Council of Venezuela. Unfortunately for Venezuela, Chavez (now followed by Maduro) violated the Venezuelan constitution and packed it with his supporters when the National Assembly is the body that's supposed to appoint them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Electoral_Council_(Venezuela)
So basically the Chavez/Maduro party already corrupted and de-legitimized the branch of government that's supposed to keep them from rigging the elections and rendering them illegitimate. Seriously, if any coup has happened it was by Chavez and Maduro destroying democracy in Venezuela.
Is that like packing the supreme court with justices that then overturn the voting rights act, followed by lots of antidemocratic measures like voter roll purges, voter ID laws, closure of polling places, etc. etc.?
To what extent is our own government delegitimized?
I mean if you want to discuss the shortcomings of the electoral system and the illegitimacy of the Republicans packing the Supreme Court I'm fine with that and I imagine we largely agree. Let's be serious though, it's not like Venezuela.
It seems to me like the argument you're making is that a coup is okay (or not even a coup at all) because of the antidemocratic behavior of Maduro and his government. I'm just pointing out that there's a lot of antidemocratic behavior here too.
I think that the suffering of the Venezuelan people is a much better argument to justify a coup, but then I think we would also need to cope with all the factors causing that suffering. I don't absolve Maduro, but I don't think it's only his fault either, and I don't think our own government is blameless.
It seems to me like the argument you're making is that a coup is okay (or not even a coup at all) because of the antidemocratic behavior of Maduro and his government. I'm just pointing out that there's a lot of antidemocratic behavior here too.
I think that the suffering of the Venezuelan people is a much better argument to justify a coup, but then I think we would also need to cope with all the factors causing that suffering. I don't absolve Maduro, but I don't think it's only his fault either, and I don't think our own government is blameless.
The suffering of the Venezuelan people is directly attributable to the current regime and not the fault of the US period. Hell we even buy 500K barrels a day of oil from them providing them a significant economic lifeline that is squandered by corruption and mismanagement.
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Private military contractors who do secret missions for Russia flew into Venezuela in the past few days to beef up security for President Nicolas Maduro in the face of U.S.-backed opposition protests, according to two people close to them.
Greaaat - more Russia shit
https://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFKCN1PJ22Q
Honestly, what purpose does Russia think this will serve? the government is never going to stabilize under Maduro. It just seems like Russia/China always want to go against whatever it is that the US/Europe is going for. It's like were already preparing for the division/sides of a WW3.