Looks like Mt. Gox is dead...

[artvscommerce]

So how is that secure?

My response was to:

As mentioned before, it's as secure as you want it to be. All you have to do is NOT share your private key and it is 100% secure. No one has EVER lost bitcoins that kept their private keys private.

Again; if you really understand how it works, there really isn't much risk at all. An offline wallet with the proper backups in place is far more secure than cash.

 

[norseamd]

THe security lies mostly with the exchanges and middlemen, not with the actual bitcoin itself, which is an important distinction that wasn't initially being made clear in criticisms

personal wallets and cold storage?

 

[Mark R]

I never said it was mainstream. i said it's not going to be mainstream until they get the shit secure.

All i said in the thread is laughing at people saying its secure. lol sure it is. all the news stories about hackers, lost coins and the bs that happend with the exchange. lol

The problem is not that bitcoin is insecure, because per se, it isn't.

The problem is that there are a lot of bitcoin related services, that are insecure, because there has been no oversight to these services. There are a number of secure services, which have carefully designed technical frameworks, penetration testing, etc.

The problem is that even though there are people who can get it right including provide insurance against loss/theft, there are still incompetents out there ready to take your money.

Given time, oversight will appear. There are already moves afoot for good practice charters, and we are already starting to see financial authorities looking to issue licenses for regulated bitcoin trading.

 

[zinfamous]

It is as secure as you keep the key(s). You choose.

what is it about the one key that makes it more secure than the one password for any online account?

legit curious here.

 

[Mark R]

what is it about the one key that makes it more secure than the one password for any online account?

legit curious here.

A bitcoin key needs to be generated mathematically, and is typically done from a strong random source.

Passwords, in general, are extremely non-random and are also much shorter than a bitcoin key.

A bitcoin key is 256 bits, generated in a near true random fashion.

A randomly generated password using mixed case, numbers and symbols would need to be over 40 characters long to have the same level of security.

This weakness in human generated passwords can be exploited by the use of dictionary attacks, and the building of dictionaries and rainbow tables. A web site needs to hold some data that allows it to identify the correct password (hopefully, this is not the password itself, or even an encrypted form), usually a "hash" of the password. Because there is only a relatively small pool of frequently used passwords, building a dictionary of passwords to probe into stolen "hashes" is feasible, and far more effective than you would expect, by just calculating the "entropy" of passwords.

Because bitcoin keys are randomly generated from a full 256 bit space, it is impossible to build a dictionary mapping public keys to private keys, because there are more bitcoin key-pairs than there are atoms in the universe. There are also so many possible key pairs that simply guessing is ridiculously unlikely to get you anywhere.

The direct computation of a private key from a public key is also impossible with current technology (if someone can build a real quantum computer, and make it run a quantum program called Shor's algorithm, it might be possible to do this calculation, but quantum computers of sufficient power are fairy-tale stuff at present).

To illustrate the problem with "non-random" sources, there HAVE been bitcoin thefts by "hackers" guessing private keys. These guesses have come from "brain wallets". A group of developers came up with a method of creating a bitcoin address that could be kept memorized. You would think up a short sentence, and use an algorithm to generate a bitcoin key pair and address. Entering that sentence into any "brain wallet" enabled bitcoin software would give you access to your bitcoins. The problem is that there is very little randomness in this, which makes building dictionaries of addresses and "pass phrases" possible. Early users of "brain wallets" who used "obvious" pass phrases have ended up with their coins stolen.

Private keys have also been "leaked" or "duplicated" by buggy software. E.g. the random number generator hardware/driver on some android phones was faulty, and the OS would have a tendency to generate the same sequence over and over, on each device. Some people were screwed because they generated a new address on a faulty android, and then someone else generated the same address and found the coins.

 

[artvscommerce]

If you would like to gain a more clear understanding of the bitcoin protocol, I think this is a good place to start. The original paper:

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

 

[Crusty]

If you would like to gain a more clear understanding of the bitcoin protocol, I think this is a good place to start. The original paper:

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

Perhaps if you have degrees in computer science and mathematics.

 

[OverVolt]

The problem is not that bitcoin is insecure, because per se, it isn't.

The problem is that there are a lot of bitcoin related services, that are insecure, because there has been no oversight to these services. There are a number of secure services, which have carefully designed technical frameworks, penetration testing, etc.

The problem is that even though there are people who can get it right including provide insurance against loss/theft, there are still incompetents out there ready to take your money.

Given time, oversight will appear. There are already moves afoot for good practice charters, and we are already starting to see financial authorities looking to issue licenses for regulated bitcoin trading.

See, you know how to take the money, you just don't know how to hold the money and that's really the most important part of the money, the holding. Anybody can just take the money.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Everyone keeps talking about how it has to mature, ect etc, but missing the point that all the "solutions" revolve around regulation, insurance backing, etc which puts the government smack in the middle of it, which (while I by no means completely understand the whole concept) seems to me negates the very reason for its existence.

I find the idea very interesting, but producing value out of nothing (which is essentially what is happening) is a tricky game. Anyone can create something and as long as someone says they'll take it as payment gives it a worth, but it may only be worth this to a select few. The US dollar, while not really backed by much of anything these days at one time WAS backed by gold. That is why it took off. What is bitcoin backed by? If you don't want government to be involved, then either some really rich person has to say "I will back any bitcoin in existence" or each individual has to be willing to accept that their "coin" is worth $0 at any given moment.

You can't have regulation and security without some sort of oversight. You can blame the exchanges all you like, but hackers will hack, especially when money is involved. The difference is all those other things they hack have some sort of protection backing them.

 

[SSSnail]

For the people that are saying the US dollar isn't backed by anything, you're wrong.

If you think of the US as a corporation, and the dollar is a stock certificate, then it'll make a whole lot more sense.

Every country is a corporation, and their currency reflects their worth.

 

[Markbnj]

For the people that are saying the US dollar isn't backed by anything, you're wrong.

If you think of the US as a corporation, and the dollar is a stock certificate, then it'll make a whole lot more sense.

Every country is a corporation, and their currency reflects their worth.

Isn't the usual verbiage "backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. Government?"

Which pretty much means nothing tangible. Isn't that the definition of a fiat currency? It's not really a share in anything, other than a shared agreement that it can stand in for tangible goods and services in transactions.

 

[SSSnail]

Isn't the usual verbiage "backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. Government?"

Which pretty much means nothing tangible. Isn't that the definition of a fiat currency? It's not really a share in anything, other than a shared agreement that it can stand in for tangible goods and services in transactions.

Yes, but the collective assets, GDP, technology, infrastructure, etc... that would give "worth" to a country, and the currency of that country is reflective of that worth.

Why do you think different country has different worth to their currency? What do you think determines it? Rock, paper, scissors?

 

[Markbnj]

Yes, but the collective assets, GDP, technology, infrastructure, etc... that would give "worth" to a country, and the currency of that country is reflective of that worth.

Why do you think different country has different worth to their currency? What do you think determines it? Rock, paper, scissors?

I'm not really qualified to debate why international exchange rates work the way they do, or what drives them. But I think you're using a rather fuzzier definition of "backed" than most people would in a conversation specifically about currency. I'm sure that the relative values of currencies do somehow reflect the perceived worth of a nation, but at the same time that doesn't mean the U.S. dollar is backed by anything tangible. As far as I know, it's not and hasn't been since... wasn't it Nixon?

 

[SSSnail]

There's nothing fuzzy about it. Are you tangible? Do you produce? Do you consume? Do you pay taxes? How do you think all that came to be? The government that enables you to do all that, is tangible. They are backed by their infrastructure, military power, technologies, GDP, resources, etc...

I'm not sure if you're just refusing to acknowledge that each nation's worth and currency is directly tied to everything that makes up that nation... That's where the currency derives its worth from. (Yes, there are some fuzzy crap going on in the real world with some country's currencies, but that's politics).

You're confusing worth with exchange rate. Try to look at this whole currency thing as the relationship between a company and its market cap (total worth) and total outstanding shares (currency). One company's market cap is 100, and they have 10 total outstanding shares; another company's cap is 1000, they have 100 total outstanding shares; though both of the value of the note is equal, but one company is worth 10x as much as the other. The same can be translated to countries and their currencies. You can slide the two scale either way to get an idea of why some currencies are just worthless. It's not that difficult.

 

[AViking]

Here's the problem for me. Everytime I ask if bitcoin can do something that has a real world application the question is ignored. Everytime something goes wrong with bitcoin people have some kind of excuse.

In order for bitcoin to operate in the manner it was intended and in some kind of useful manner it requires really two things. At a minimum it needs stability and no government involvement. Without those two it is USELESS. In order to get stability it needs to remove the speculators and it needs some kind of real foundation. It's not a currency in its present form but merely a worthless commodity that is moved around in a pyramid scheme. In an ideal Startrek world with global "credits" you might use a crypto currency but our world is not even close to that political reality.

If you start introducing government involvement then it's just another layer of costs and bullshit to be added. I have bank accounts in multiple countries and have to pay fees on all of them. The cheapest one I have is a credit union account in the US where I don't have a monthly fee but they do charge a small foreign transaction fee everytime I pull out USD in a foreign ATM. It's not much but it adds up. My accounts in China cost me a few RMB every month plus 1% when I pull out money outside of the city where I opened the bank account. My accounts in Europe cost me a monthly fee plus other fees for an ATM card, online banking, and so on. I don't need to have more fees translating something from Bitcoin to my local currency. I already have that. In addition the whole point of bitcoin is to not have government involvement. Right now the shitty part about the system is that I can't move money between systems without everyone wanting a piece of the pie. Countries fight to tax your money and it's a pain in the ass. This is why people put money in Swiss bank accounts where hopefully some governments can't find it. I thought Bitcoin was designed to avoid that by avoiding the government. That's why it's so popular with drug traffickers and money launderers. As a dual citizen I see money in a different way than some of you. If I operate a business in a country that I'm not a citizen of I am expected to pay taxes in not only that country but Sweden and the US. This completely detracts from the whole point of me doing business in that 3rd country which is the lower taxes. Let me make my damn money in peace! I shouldn't have to pay US taxes when I don't live there. I'm not getting shit for my tax money. As it is if I make over $9000 I have to file and pay taxes in the US. There's a $92,000 tax exemption but it's kinda complicated if you are running a company in one country but not living there or the US.

In order for bitcoin to work you need it to work globally. It needs to function in a way that I can use it for both purchasing, investment, sales, and so on. It needs to not be under the thumb of any government. I need to know that if I move money between Belgium and Argentina that it's not going to drop 60% in value by the time I want to spend it. I shouldn't need 3 pass keys and to jump through a bunch of hoops to use it securely. What was described above was to me absurd since it's like being in an unsafe country where you need a dummy wallet, money taped to the inside of your thigh, money in your shoe, and you still aren't safe despite only bringing $10 with you outside.

The reason lots of countries use the USD instead of their local currency is because it's stable. This is common sense. Anything that is not stable is WORTHLESS as a tool for trade. It has a value that is understood between all parties. Bitcoin is nowhere near that. It's just a pyramid scheme that idiots are trying to pass on using the greater fool theory.

 

[Kaido]

Mt. Gox found 200,000 Bitcoin ($116 million) in an old wallet:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/03/20/mt-gox-apparently-found-200-000-bitcoin-in-an-old-wallet-shoul/

 

[Markbnj]

Mt. Gox found 200,000 Bitcoin ($116 million) in an old wallet:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/03/20/mt-gox-apparently-found-200-000-bitcoin-in-an-old-wallet-shoul/

Haha, well that will make people feel better about their level of diligence in running a financial institution.

 

[waggy]

Mt. Gox found 200,000 Bitcoin ($116 million) in an old wallet:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/03/20/mt-gox-apparently-found-200-000-bitcoin-in-an-old-wallet-shoul/

bwhahahahahahahaha

 

[TwiceOver]

"Oh shit, we're going to prison."
"What if we 'found' some?..."

 

[highland145]

"Oh shit, we're going to prison."
"What if we 'found' some?..."

 

[waggy]

"Oh shit, we're going to prison."
"What if we 'found' some?..."

rolf. that's what i was thinking.

 

[ultimatebob]

Perhaps if you have degrees in computer science and mathematics.

Everyone else can get a gist of Bitcoin from watching the pretty Flash video on that site.

Of course, both of them leave out the negative press like the Silk Road raids and Mt Gox from the story

 

[M0oG0oGaiPan]

either someone is scamming or they seriously were in over their heads.

 

[BoberFett]

either someone is scamming or they seriously were in over their heads.

Collectible card game trading site decides to become a "bank"... :hmm:

 

[BudAshes]

Collectible card game trading site decides to become a "bank"... :hmm:

dude magic is complicated. You have to have at least level 4 nerd status to play that shit and banking should be cake for someone of that status.