Looks like the Berkeley Wackos are at it again

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: EngineNr9
If they went the other way they'd be appeasing the jingoists.

But who cares, it's just petty bickering. If you want to sing the National Anthem and have a personal relationship with God or Allah, I don't think anyone would stop you. Doesn't seem very healthy for a memorial to be about anything other than remembering the loss of life. Filling the emptiness with patriotism and foolish religious pride brings you a few steps closer to the people who attacked the Twin Towers to begin with.

So, since we're generalizing, what are they going to do on 9/11/02 in Texas. Drink Budweiser and lynch black people?

Nope it's hippies this year. The Texas Chamber of Commerce has reached a special deal with SouthWestern Airlines and The Republic of Berkeley for halfprice one way tickets to the festivities. You are strongly encouraged to bring your berkinstocks, peace signs, and all your Anti-American paraphernalia.

 

[dfi]

This has to be a joke. It's too stupid for even the ASUC to do.

Isn't it?

Well, if I walk by some wacky weirdo parade on wednesday, then I'll know for sure.

dfi

 

[calbear2000]

Ummm... I guess you're not familiar with cynicism.

I posted those ridiculous articles twisted out of context to prove a point... I guess you missed it.

Glad to hear you're not offended by being called a redneck though...

 

[Red Dawn]

Pieces of sh1t like them are what is ruining this country.

No it isn't. In fact it seems the only two groups that pay any attention to what they do in Bezerkley are those from Bezerkley and knuckleheaded Conservatives. The vast majority of those students who consider themselves "Enlightened" usually change their views once they've graduated from that place and see what the real world is actually like. Here in California Bezerkley is a standing joke...albeit a bad one!The good thing about Bezerkley is that its a place where all the whackos congregate. It's best to have them all in one place instead of spread out through the country implementing their whackiness.

 

[TechieZer0]

It is amazing to me how these people have lost sight of what happened a year ago. Did those attacks happen because we were NOT American or did they happen because we are?

I find it wonderful that these students can have money to have full bellies and clothes on their backs. They are allowed to walk the streets and voice their non-nationalistic sentiments without fear of injury. They can live on a campus that will teach them great things.

All on American soil, how hypocritical is that?

 

[Red Dawn]

All on American soil, how hypocritical is that?

It's not hypocritical at all. In fact it's what America's all about, freedom of speech and freedom to be a complete wanker.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

All on American soil, how hypocritical is that?

It's not hypocritical at all. In fact it's what America's all about, freedom of speech and freedom to be a complete wanker.

Agreed, but it's still hypocritical. If they hate this country so much, why not just move somewhere where they'll be happier? Much better for everyone.

 

[Red Dawn]

Agreed, but it's still hypocritical. If they hate this country so much, why not just move somewhere where they'll be happier? Much better for everyone.

Hating the current administration and it's policies and hating religion doesn't mean they hate America. You don't have to be a Nationalist (like myself) to love America. I disagree with them (well most of their BS) yet I don't think they hate America. I just think they are confused and wrong.

 

[Moonbeam]

Of course we don't want to forget that nationalism is very important to those without a sense of their own self worth. It's the substitute for it. Real love of country is never without the inclination to criticize it when it goes wrong. It's all about 'tough love' and moral fiber, not wishy wash servile moral relativism and spinless 'go along to get along' conformity.

EDIT: Damn you Red, you would have to go and call yourself a nationalist just as I was posting. You are a nice nationalist and the capacity to tollerate criticism of the US from others without haviong to call the America Haters is an indication that what you call Nationalism is something different than what I'm implying. But still, why do you use that term? If you love America, and don't need to be a nationalist to do so, what is a nationalist to you?

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Agreed, but it's still hypocritical. If they hate this country so much, why not just move somewhere where they'll be happier? Much better for everyone.

Hating the current administration and it's policies and hating religion doesn't mean they hate America. You don't have to be a Nationalist (like myself) to love America. I disagree with them (well most of their BS) yet I don't think they hate America. I just think they are confused and wrong.

"We thought that may be just too political, too patriotic,"

"We didn't want anything too centered on nationalism-anything that is 'Go U.S.A.'"

Quindel, a self avowed hater of the American Flag, the federal government, and the "Star Spangled Banner"

Patriotic songs may exclude and offend people, Quindel said, "because there are so many people who don't agree with the songs."

The flag has become a symbol of U.S. aggression towards other countries. It seems hostile," Quindel said.

Similar fears of aggression toward the flag prompted Berkeley's fire chief to order American flags removed from fire trucks. City leaders worried protesters would attack the flag and comprise firefighters' ability to do their job.

Quindel said it would be inappropriate for the university to endorse patriotic themes.

Now does that sound like people who don't support GWB or people who hate this country?

 

[Moonbeam]

ThePresence, Take a look at Yugoslavia. Before they began to massacre each other they first pumped themselves up on how wonderful they were and how worthless the 'other' was. There was lots and lots of patriotic singing and flag waving, lots of nationalism. What is it all for if not to emotionally arouse people into a mob and mindless acceptance of the direction your leaders want you to go in. Are you a reptile that acts on instince, a sheep to be herded about, or an independent entity with critical faculties that judges everything for yourself. Nationalism is an instrument of conditioning, a method of mind control.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
ThePresence, Take a look at Yugoslavia. Before they began to massacre each other they first pumped themselves up on how wonderful they were and how worthless the 'other' was. There was lots and lots of patriotic singing and flag waving, lots of nationalism. What is it all for if not to emotionally arouse people into a mob and mindless acceptance of the direction your leaders want you to go in. Are you a reptile that acts on instince, a sheep to be herded about, or an independent entity with critical faculties that judges everything for yourself. Nationalism is an instrument of conditioning, a method of mind control.

Or maybe nationalism comes from people genuinely loving their country? Is that so far-fetched?

 

[Red Dawn]

Nevermind

 

[RandomCoil]

Now does that sound like people who don't support GWB or people who hate this country?

Neither. It would appear to suggest that they do not approve of certain US policies and the culture that surrounds them. Again, they have every right to think that and say that.

Agreed, but it's still hypocritical. If they hate this country so much, why not just move somewhere where they'll be happier? Much better for everyone.

Again, they don't hate the country, they dislike current policies and culture. They're staying here because the US is their country as well and they have every right to try and shape it in the way they see fit (within the constraints of the Constitution, of course).

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: RandomCoil

Now does that sound like people who don't support GWB or people who hate this country?

Neither. It would appear to suggest that they do not approve of certain US policies and the culture that surrounds them. Again, they have every right to think that and say that.

Hating the Flag and the National Anthem has nothing to do with not approving of certain US policies. I agree that they have the right to hate this country, but it does seem stupid to me, why live in a country that you hate so much?

Agreed, but it's still hypocritical. If they hate this country so much, why not just move somewhere where they'll be happier? Much better for everyone.

Again, they don't hate the country, they dislike current policies and culture. They're staying here because the US is their country as well and they have every right to try and shape it in the way they see fit (within the constraints of the Constitution, of course).

I agree that they do. But I believe that they are staying here because they love the freedoms that this country provides, even though they claim to hate it to sound all hip and non-conformist.

 

[Red Dawn]

Moonie

what you call Nationalism is something different than what I'm implying

Yes it is. In fact I'm probably incorrect in my use of the term.

 

[RandomCoil]

Hating the Flag and the National Anthem has nothing to do with not approving of certain US policies. I agree that they have the right to hate this country, but it does seem stupid to me, why live in a country that you hate so much?

I still disagree with your basic premise that they hate this country. The flag and national anthem are merely symbols for the country that, apparently, some people have come to associate with nationalism/jingoism and aggression. Whether or not you or I think they are correct in making the association, I don't think there is a direct correlation between disliking those symbols and hating the US. My guess is that if they truely _hated_ the US, thy would leave. The fact they stay is very likely because they do like the US ad want to, in their minds, improve it.

I agree that they do. But I believe that they are staying here because they love the freedoms that this country provides, even though they claim to hate it to sound all hip and non-conformist.

Again, I don't see where they say "We hate the United States of America", and I imagine they do love the freedoms this country provides; they'd probably argue for greater liberty, in fact. As to whether they're just trying to be "hip and non-conformist" or simply being young and idealistic, I have no idea.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: RandomCoil

Hating the Flag and the National Anthem has nothing to do with not approving of certain US policies. I agree that they have the right to hate this country, but it does seem stupid to me, why live in a country that you hate so much?

I still disagree with your basic premise that they hate this country. The flag and national anthem are merely symbols for the country that, apparently, some people have come to associate with nationalism/jingoism and aggression. Whether or not you or I think they are correct in making the association, I don't think there is a direct correlation between disliking those symbols and hating the US. My guess is that if they truely _hated_ the US, thy would leave. The fact they stay is very likely because they do like the US ad want to, in their minds, improve it.

The Flag and the National Anthem are American symbols. People can associate symbols with whatever they want, it doesn't change the fact that these symbols stand for the USA. If they love this country and are just trying to change the direction the country is headed in, or trying to change it's policies, they would embrace these symbols. They can then work on "changing" the country and getting these symbols loved by all those that they feel might possibly be offended by them. Hating the flag and the Anthem just reflects hatred of the country IMO.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

mother bitches !!

<-- now boycotting Berkeley.

 

[ThePresence]

HOLD EVERYTHING! BERKELEY REVERSED THE DECISION!!!!!
LINK
You may have to refresh the link.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

not everyone from Berkeley is a leftwing whacko......

 

[Lucky]

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
not everyone from Berkeley is a leftwing whacko......

quotes like this sure make that hard to believe:



But Cal-SERVE Senator Gustavo Mata, an international student from Venezuela, said he does not support the inclusion of an American flag displayed at the memorial.

"Having the flag there takes away the importance of the day for people who do not agree with the terrorist attacks but are not American," Mata said. "It makes people feel excluded."

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Lucky

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
not everyone from Berkeley is a leftwing whacko......

quotes like this sure make that hard to believe:



But Cal-SERVE Senator Gustavo Mata, an international student from Venezuela, said he does not support the inclusion of an American flag displayed at the memorial.

"Having the flag there takes away the importance of the day for people who do not agree with the terrorist attacks but are not American," Mata said. "It makes people feel excluded."

Rather stupid. The attack was against America. That non-Americans died that day was consequential. Also, those non-Americans were here at the good graces of, and to benefit from, the greatness that is this country.

 

[Moonbeam]

Maybe that means that even if you don't agree with Nationalism, you don't have a right to prevent others from being nationalistic, or that if you feel excluded it's something that you will have to deal with rather than make the world change to suit your likings. The microphones, I trust, are still open.

Those who think the attack was dirrected against the US are right, but I think that even more broadly, it was aimed at Western Civilization or, if you wish, modernity.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Maybe that means that even if you don't agree with Nationalism, you don't have a right to prevent others from being nationalistic, or that if you feel excluded it's something that you will have to deal with rather than make the world change to suit your likings. The microphones, I trust, are still open.

Those who think the attack was dirrected against the US are right, but I think that even more broadly, it was aimed at Western Civilization or, if you wish, modernity.

I'll concede to your last point, Moonie. At the same time, the organizers in their attempt to exlude nobody, have excluded everybody. When you make something so flavorless, what good is it?