Looks to me like its going to be President Gore

[ride525]

I think Bush may end up with the most votes after this manual count of the undervotes, and that will be the end of it....

 

[JellyBaby]

rmblam,

Or it could be a Secret Plot to put Strom Thurman on the Throne. I'd actually be in favor of that if true.

btw, what's with all this early talk of Hillary for President in 2004? I mean really she's not entirely qualified to be a senator...how could she possibly be ready for the Queenship a mere 4 years later? Do these Elite, Wealthy Persons with Name Recogition and Little Else not need to EARN their positions of power any longer?

In any case it won't happen. America does not make Senators into Presidents. I don't believe it's ever happened historically. That was another nail in McCain's coffin, btw. So we'd need to see Governor Hillary first.

 

[Futuramatic]

It seems to me after reading some of the dissent that ehy were not jsut dissenting, but damning he 4 who did not dissent. IT was curious to note that the four who voted for the decision were the 4 that absolutely shredded the Republican lawyers. I'm not making judgements here, jsut observations. I think that Bush will still come out on top with this recount, further cementing his rightful place as President-Elect.

That is if the USSC doesnt bitch-slap the FLSC..... AGAIN!

 

[Pennstate]

Do these Elite, Wealthy Persons with Name Recogition and Little Else not need to EARN their positions of power any longer?


Are you talking about George W Bush? That's exactly what happened to him

 

[JellyBaby]

Pennstate,

I certainly could be! But at the very least he made a pretense to show credibility and effort by being elected twice as governor in the nation's second (third?) largest state. But the principle of Wealthy Elite Persons continually maintaining dominance in modern politics applys to Shrub as well. What I'm in favor of is a return to just Elite Persons holding political office where they earn their spots through hard work, strong character and a "people first, politics second" attitude. Where can I get me some of dat?

 

[Slugbait]

Well, I've had enough of all the petty crying.

I'm being told by one person that a valid, well-respected news organization is in the democrats' back pocket, and this person then uses a radical, unrespected organization that has nothing to do with news to argue his point.

I've got another person telling me to search for myself for the Broward County transcripts that will prove once and for all that fraud occurred. No link, never heard anything about it in the papers/television/newssites, so it might as well be another X file.

You can't handle that Bush might lose. Get over it. Every intelligent person watching this facade knows that no matter who wins, that man is absolutely guaranteed to be a one-term prez. And with the successor also comes a radical and drastic shift to one-sidedness in both the house and senate.

Pray it's not your party that loses everything four years from now.

 

[DefRef]

CNN was headed up by Rick Kaplan, a prominent Friend of Bill. They are notorious for being extremely liberal and biased. Why do you suppose that Fox News ("We Report. YOU Decide.&quot has watched it's ratings soar during this mess, while CNN is declining? Maybe because the people are sick of being spun and lied to?

A lot of people could accept if Bush had lost...FAIRLY. For Gore to use cronies and fraud and a renegade court to STEAL an election is what people won't accept.

It's telling that the Goreistas don't mind that the country has been pushed into a Constitutional crisis, because winning is the ONLY thing that matters to them. Conservatives are evil to them and must be destroyed by any means neccessary. If the have to wipe their worthless butts with the Constitution to rig up a victory, so be it. "We MUST win!"

 

[Prodigy^]

lol yeah ww said it best.

anyway......I find it truly amazing that grown up people can be arguing like this.

LOOK AT BUSH! He's so incredibly, ridiculously biased towards his own wish of obtaining the presidency that he's using those 'it is too late'-arguments against Gore. Come on.....if he had been in any normal person's place, he would have stood back, let the count continue, and find the correct winner. His arguments that it's violating the constitution, etc. are pathetic. Let the votes be counted and let's see who wins.

and yes, of course I'm biased becuase of that fact that I want Gore to win.....but still, I find Bush pathetic and I would have been thinking the same of Gore if the situation had been the other way around.

 

[ride525]

<< It's telling that the Goreistas don't mind that the country has been pushed into a Constitutional crisis >>



It's ALMOST funny the way the Republicans sing the song of Constitutional crisis.....there is absolutely no crisis......the election is being played out according to the laws right now......

It's really too bad that Bush has fought so hard against any sort of manual recount, trying to get more of the votes correctly counted. Bush may still come out of this with more votes.

 

[etech]

&quot;the election is being played out according to the laws right now......&quot;

The laws that are being made up on the fly by the democratic courts, not the laws that were in effect on the day of the election.


&quot;It's really too bad that Bush has fought so hard against any sort of manual recount, trying to get more of the votes correctly counted.&quot;

Correctly counted?, according to what standard? Is it the pregnent chad, the dimpled chad, the pin-prick or the hold it up to your head and devine what the voter intended to do method? There is no standard, the votes have been counted. If the voter did not prepare their ballot properly then they cannot be counted.

 

[SJ]

Actually its NOT being carried out by laws inplace before Nov 7, so yes its a constitutional crisis. Many will debate if the FSC did change the law. The USSC will no doubt reverse the FSC ruling, problem is, if its after the votes have been counted there will be a MAJOR constitutional crisis. The 11th or the USSC need to either deny Bush's stay and appeal today, or grant the stay and then Monday decide on the opinion. The USSC does have jurisdiction, as the FSC blatantly disregarded the US Constitution and did not take heed of the USSC's first ruling.

 

[ride525]

<< according to what standard? >>

You should know the answer to that....the standard set by the Florida legislature.

<< Many will debate if the FSC did change the law. >>

and many will say they correctly made rulings when the laws conflicted. That is their job.

 

[SJ]

Laws conflicted? Maybe in the first opinion, not even close in the second.. Alot of legal experts republican and democrat alike fully expect the USSC to reverse the FSC's ruling. The FSC blatantly disregarded the US Constitution...

 

[Anyone2u]

<< I've got another person telling me to search for myself for the Broward County transcripts that will prove once and for all that fraud occurred. No link, never heard anything about it in the papers/television/newssites, so it might as well be another X file. >>


I will reserve comment on the &quot;...never heard anything about it in the papers/television/newssites...&quot; comment as this has been discussed in many other forums.

As far as a link to the Broward County transcripts, the best I can do is only give portions of it (coutesy of everyone's favorite...Matt Drudge)Portions of Broward County transcripts. Please note when reading this that I believe one of the judges is a Democrat and the other Republican(sorry if I'm wrong). Gunzburger needs no introduction.

 

[ride525]

<< Alot of legal experts republican and democrat alike fully expect the USSC to reverse the FSC's ruling. The FSC blatantly disregarded the US Constitution... >>



In what way? I haven't heard this complaint from the Republican spin doctors yet.

The one legal commentary I heard said yesterday's decision was written in such a way as to make it hard to appeal. We'll see....

 

[etech]

<< according to what standard? >>

Ride525 &quot;You should know the answer to that....the standard set by the Florida legislature. &quot;

What is the standard? If it is so clear and precise why is each county using different standards? Why did at least one of the counties change the standard they were using in the middle of their hand recount.


It was the responsiblity of the voter to see if the holes were punched and to clear any hanging chads from the back of the ballot. It is a mistake for the courts to rule that the voter intention should be &quot;devined&quot;. You might as well get a fortune teller to tell us who won the election.

 

[ride525]

<< You might as well get a fortune teller to tell us who won the election. >>



What EVER happened to &quot;I trust the people&quot;.....

I think the folks counting the ballots should be able to do a good job counting them.

I agree the standard can be intrepreted differently in different counties. But that is what the Florida legislature set up, and the legislature left it up to the individual counties to interpret. Maybe the judge in charge of this will pass out more guidelines.

 

[PCAddict]

The U.S. Supreme Court will deliver another bitch-slap to the Florida S.C. The CJ in Florida couldn't be more correct in his dissenting opinion. There is no basis in law for this decision and it will not stand up to scrutiny (by the U.S. Supreme Court).

The only thing that this ruling from the Florida court did is add even more time and entertainment value to this process.

 

[hpkeeper]

Christ... Gore is stupid.... he's dragging this out... out of what... two recounts and the original election.. (3x total) how many times has Gore won? 0, now that would lead one to believe that he's done... give it up! Kripes...

 

[etech]

I trust the people that followed the instructions and have already had their votes properly counted by the machines. I watched the ballot recounts on CSPAN, from that I have no reason to trust the hand counters. They were holding the ballots up to the lights, turning them every which way, bending and flexing the ballots and every time one of them called it a no-vote the democrat on the board would object and contest that it was a vote for Gore.


&quot;I think the folks counting the ballots should be able to do a good job counting them.&quot;

That's nice, from what I saw on the first recounts, I disagree.


&quot;I agree the standard can be intrepreted differently in different counties.&quot;

Then it is not a valid and good standard if it is open to interpretation, Read that as open to manipulation.

&quot;But that is what the Florida legislature set up, and the legislature left it up to the individual counties to interpret. I agree the standard can be intrepreted differently in different counties. &quot;

Knowing that, how did the Florida Supreme Court say to use the Florida standards when those standards are open to interprtation by the individual counties?

&quot; Maybe the judge in charge of this will pass out more guidelines.&quot;

So you want the judges to legislate the standards now, that is partially what got us into this mess.

 

[SJ]

Oh well, Gore has a less than 50% chance of picking up enough votes. Statistical experts say Bush may end up winning by close to 300 votes. Gore likes using statistics, well theres another one. Ride, there are gapping holes in the opinion issued yesterday, and I still fully expect the USSC to intervene at some point. If Gore doesn't pass Bush after Dade, its over.

 

[Michael]

PBC's change is not the 215 votes that the Democrats were arguing, it really was 179. The FSC added 215 votes into the total. There were not 215 votes. They made a glaring error in fact.

Judge Terry Lewis set a super fast deadline for the recounts. It is obvious that chaos is breaking out as the Counties scramble to recount, just as the dissenters warned. I wonder if Judge Lewis did that on purpose. Remember, the FSC overruled one of his ruling and they also overruled Judge Sauls ruling. All the legal analysis I read said that appeal courts almost never overule findings of fact. The FSC may have pissed off a bunch of circuit court judges all over the state.

I also feel that the FSC set a very dangerous precident. Every contest from now on will introduce the ballots into the proceedings. Counter contests will enter every single ballot. Looks like every single ballot will have to be looked into.

Michael

 

[rmeijer]

<<<I also feel that the FSC set a very dangerous precident. Every contest from now on will introduce the ballots into the proceedings. Counter contests will enter every single ballot. Looks like every single ballot will have to be looked into.>>>

You mean 'every contest that is contested', no? Also, I think you meant every single ballot that is considered an 'undervote' will be entered into the proceedings. With such a precedent set, I would imagine that canvasing boards would beef up their voting proceedure so as to minimize undervotes (or eliminate them altogether via some feedback mechanism). I guess I don't see it as &quot;dangerous&quot;; if my speculation has merit, this may actual lead to cleaner elections in the future.

 

[Michael]

No, I mean every single ballot. And I mean &quot;counter-contest&quot;, that's the correct term.

Michael

 

[Russ]

<< In what way? I haven't heard this complaint from the Republican spin doctors yet. >>



Ride525,

No need for the Republicans to bring it up, since the dissenting members of the court itself, in their very strongly worded opinion, cited chapter and verse of exactly why the decision is a violation of the US Constitution, and therefore a matter for the US Supreme Court.

Russ, NCNE