Loot boxes being compared to gambling

[shortylickens]

http://fandom.wikia.com/articles/developers-get-behind-loot-box-regulation

This is not the first time I've heard the comparison.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-10-11-are-loot-boxes-gambling

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikka...g-about-loot-boxes-and-gambling/#33ad014a2a64

It seems to be building up to a serious issue in the news.

 

[disappoint]

Interesting stuff, thanks for the links.

"The player is basically working for reward by making a series of responses, but the rewards are delivered unpredictably," Dr. Luke Clark, director at the Center for Gambling Research at the University of British Columbia, told PC Gamer recently. "We know that the dopamine system, which is targeted by drugs of abuse, is also very interested in unpredictable rewards. Dopamine cells are most active when there is maximum uncertainty, and the dopamine system responds more to an uncertain reward than the same reward delivered on a predictable basis."

Psychologists call this "variable rate reinforcement." Essentially, the brain kicks into high gear when you're opening a loot box or pulling the lever on a slot machine or opening a Christmas present because the outcome is uncertain. This is exciting and, for many people, addictive.

And then there's this:

Enthoven points to the Chinese response to loot boxes, in which the Chinese government pointed to studies that show addiction patterns in children similar to what we see with gambling addicts. The Chinese government has come out with new regulations requiring game publishers to list probability outcomes for all loot boxes, though some developers have found ways to work around these new rules.

When the Chinese govt. cares about it's people more than yours, you've got a problem.

 

[shortylickens]

We already know games are addicting thanks to dopamine. Theres whole books written on WoW.

 

[purbeast0]

Last I checked, when you gamble, you either win money or you win nothing.

This isn't gambling.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Last I checked, when you gamble, you either win money or you win nothing.

This isn't gambling.

Not in that sense but it's the addiction factor and it is a gamble to spend real money hoping that RNG is in your favor for the item you are hunting.

 

[shortylickens]

Need For Speed Payback is going to have loot crates it seems. They'll be called Shipments. People online are already complaining.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Wall Street is gambling too, no matter how much 'educated guessing' you do. They have no issues with people throwing their money at that.

 

[thejunglegod]

I've never found the allure to it. Almost every online game has a chest / lootbox these days. Even League of Legends has a chest system. I just wish we'd be done away with them forever.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I've never found the allure to it. Almost every online game has a chest / lootbox these days. Even League of Legends has a chest system. I just wish we'd be done away with them forever.

See I don’t care if they are there for cosmetic items because those don’t affect me in any way. The problem is that games like Call of Duty give actual weapons that put you at an advantage against others who didn’t unlock it yet. This forces you to either deal with being outgunned constantly, spend the money, or just not play the game. It’s a bad situation to put players in.

In Destiny 2 for example you can buy what they call silver which is used for the Eververse Trading Company in the game. The silver can be used to buy bright engram packages that give you purely cosmetic items. You can also earn these bright engrams through the normal course of playing the game so you never have to buy them and none of the items people obtain by buying silver gives them any advantage. The potential armor is no better than anything else you get easily and it only has a different appearance. Other things like ships don’t affect gameplay and are there only for looks. That’s not a bad system because you can get all those things just from playing and there is no advantage to spending actual money.

So while I don’t like having these systems in the game, at least don’t give players an advantage if they decide to spend money on it.

 

[purbeast0]

See I don’t care if they are there for cosmetic items because those don’t affect me in any way. The problem is that games like Call of Duty give actual weapons that put you at an advantage against others who didn’t unlock it yet. This forces you to either deal with being outgunned constantly, spend the money, or just not play the game. It’s a bad situation to put players in.

You can have this same problem if you simply don't play the game as much as other people too so I don't see this being tied to these loot boxes really.

 

[KentState]

Wall Street is gambling too, no matter how much 'educated guessing' you do. They have no issues with people throwing their money at that.

By that definition, driving to work, flying in a plane or eating a meal is gambling. What you are missing is that when you buy a stock, you own something. The risk comes from the type of company you are investing in and how you diversify your money.

With loot boxes, you are basing the outcome on a random number generator. At least with real gambling you have a chance to win something of real value. The loot boxes give you something that is the "property" of the publisher and can't be sold regardless.

 

[purbeast0]

By that definition, driving to work, flying in a plane or eating a meal is gambling. What you are missing is that when you buy a stock, you own something. The risk comes from the type of company you are investing in and how you diversify your money.

With loot boxes, you are basing the outcome on a random number generator. At least with real gambling you have a chance to win something of real value. The loot boxes give you something that is the "property" of the publisher and can't be sold regardless.

Which is exactly why it's not gambling - you are paying for a product.

 

[cmdrdredd]

You can have this same problem if you simply don't play the game as much as other people too so I don't see this being tied to these loot boxes really.

Not really because people get all the best guns on Day one by spending stupid amounts of money on the loot boxes then they have an advantage that puts them at the top of the leaderboards constantly. It is a real problem.

Imagine if the new street fighter required you to unlock combos and special moves but you could get random sets of costumes and potentially these combos and moves through similar loot crates. You would undoubtedly have people spending $100+ to get all the moves before others have unlocked it and when you play it’s truly an advantage for them.

Again for cosmetic items and things that don’t affect anyone else I don’t care much. For things that give people an advantage, it’s pretty bad.

 

[purbeast0]

Not really because people get all the best guns on Day one by spending stupid amounts of money on the loot boxes then they have an advantage that puts them at the top of the leaderboards constantly. It is a real problem.

Imagine if the new street fighter required you to unlock combos and special moves but you could get random sets of costumes and potentially these combos and moves through similar loot crates. You would undoubtedly have people spending $100+ to get all the moves before others have unlocked it and when you play it’s truly an advantage for them.

Again for cosmetic items and things that don’t affect anyone else I don’t care much. For things that give people an advantage, it’s pretty bad.

Everything you just said still applies if you have to spend 100 hours to unlock something, and you don't play as much as the other people. Some people value time over money and would rather spend money than time on unlocking stuff. I personally don't have an issue with that. Leaderboards aren't a problem to me at all, because they are meaningless to me.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Everything you just said still applies if you have to spend 100 hours to unlock something, and you don't play as much as the other people. Some people value time over money and would rather spend money than time on unlocking stuff. I personally don't have an issue with that. Leaderboards aren't a problem to me at all, because they are meaningless to me.

So what I gather is you are ok with a pay to win model. A situation where you can't compete without spending real money on in game items. That's what this really is. In some situations no matter how much you play if someone is destroying you and/or your team with something they paid for you may never get any points toward buying a loot box with the in game currency. At the very least you are getting very small amounts of currency toward the chance. So in essence if you don't pay real money you'll be stuck and unable to have a chance to compete which is the main focus of PvP game modes.

Also no it doesn't apply. On the first day nobody has had time to unlock the weapons or whatever through normal means and everyone using it and winning every game they enter has spent loads of cash to do so. Lets say it takes an average of 50 hours to unlock a gun, within 12 hours nobody should have it yet. Not even if you no-life the game for the first day. That's how the game should be. Unless said item(s) have no advantages which we already know they do. We're not talking about playing a game after it's been out for 4 months and people memorized the maps and have stuff already unlocked.


What's even worse than that is Activision has a patent for "microtransaction influenced matchmaking". The implication is that for a fee you can pair up in a game that is more favorable to you while everyone not paying potentially gets tossed in one sided games against vets in order to entice that player to buy in game items to compete against them. It sucks all around.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN/9789406

 

[purbeast0]

I am okay with having to either spend time to unlock stuff or if you don't feel like it, you can pay to do it instead of spending time unlocking it. Not everyone has 50 hours to play a game to simply unlock a gun. You also act as if all 2 million COD players "pay to win". I don't have numbers on hand, but I would highly doubt that is the case and would guess it's a really small minority.

Time == money

That said, I personally probably won't support it ever with my own money, but I can understand the concept behind it.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I am okay with having to either spend time to unlock stuff or if you don't feel like it, you can pay to do it instead of spending time unlocking it. Not everyone has 50 hours to play a game to simply unlock a gun. You also act as if all 2 million COD players "pay to win". I don't have numbers on hand, but I would highly doubt that is the case and would guess it's a really small minority.

Time == money

That said, I personally probably won't support it ever with my own money, but I can understand the concept behind it.

Remember that most times the in game currency is given out based on performance. If you're always losing because someone bought everything you won't progress to be able to buy anything at all. Even worse if they put this microtransaction based matchmaking in to force you to lose to people with all the stuff.

 

[Aikouka]

Which is exactly why it's not gambling - you are paying for a product.

But there actually isn't an inherent product that you're paying for... if you exclude the nebulous loot box itself. When I used to buy loot boxes in Overwatch, and let me tell you... I'd spend at least $80 per event on boxes, I did it for the chance to get the skins that I wanted. I wasn't paying $5 for that cool new skin. I was paying $80 for 100 boxes for the chance to get it. If I didn't get it, I had to hope that I got enough currency to buy it instead! (Keep in mind that the skin won't be available again for another year after the event ends, and that includes purchasing it.) The worst part of it is that the loot boxes preyed on my OCD. I literally could not stand the idea of having an item that needed to be unlocked but I couldn't unlock it. It had to be complete. There's an event going on right now in Overwatch, and I have to force myself to ignore the boxes. It's a little easier when I realized that I don't even like most of the event skins anyway.

What I think is probably the worst implementation of loot boxes (ignoring the content) is when they give you a box for some sort of achievement yet you have to pay for keys to open the boxes.

Thinking about it... I'd actually agree that they're quite similar to gambling. @purbeast0 , your point was that you don't lose anything with loot boxes, but losing isn't inherent to gambling. What's inherent to gambling addiction is the idea of highs and lows. In the case of typical casino gambling, lows could be losses or even very weak winnings; however, in regard to loot boxes, lows are like I talked about above... getting stuff you have absolutely no interest in. It's interesting to watch streamers open boxes, because you can visibly see the differences in demeanors. In Overwatch, when you open a box, the items pop up in a way that makes their rarity visible prior to knowing exactly what it is. So, the person can see that they just got a legendary drop, which might be the skin that they're looking for. However, sometimes, it turns out to be a skin for a hero that they don't play. The smiles suddenly turn to disinterest, and they'll usually mutter, "Well, that's cool, but I don't play that hero.... Next!"

It's the same mentality.

 

[VirtualLarry]

maybe "real world'" jobs should be paid by "loot boxes" every week. Just sayin'




/s

 

[purbeast0]

But there actually isn't an inherent product that you're paying for... if you exclude the nebulous loot box itself. When I used to buy loot boxes in Overwatch, and let me tell you... I'd spend at least $80 per event on boxes, I did it for the chance to get the skins that I wanted. I wasn't paying $5 for that cool new skin. I was paying $80 for 100 boxes for the chance to get it. If I didn't get it, I had to hope that I got enough currency to buy it instead! (Keep in mind that the skin won't be available again for another year after the event ends, and that includes purchasing it.) The worst part of it is that the loot boxes preyed on my OCD. I literally could not stand the idea of having an item that needed to be unlocked but I couldn't unlock it. It had to be complete. There's an event going on right now in Overwatch, and I have to force myself to ignore the boxes. It's a little easier when I realized that I don't even like most of the event skins anyway.

What I think is probably the worst implementation of loot boxes (ignoring the content) is when they give you a box for some sort of achievement yet you have to pay for keys to open the boxes.

Thinking about it... I'd actually agree that they're quite similar to gambling. @purbeast0 , your point was that you don't lose anything with loot boxes, but losing isn't inherent to gambling. What's inherent to gambling addiction is the idea of highs and lows. In the case of typical casino gambling, lows could be losses or even very weak winnings; however, in regard to loot boxes, lows are like I talked about above... getting stuff you have absolutely no interest in. It's interesting to watch streamers open boxes, because you can visibly see the differences in demeanors. In Overwatch, when you open a box, the items pop up in a way that makes their rarity visible prior to knowing exactly what it is. So, the person can see that they just got a legendary drop, which might be the skin that they're looking for. However, sometimes, it turns out to be a skin for a hero that they don't play. The smiles suddenly turn to disinterest, and they'll usually mutter, "Well, that's cool, but I don't play that hero.... Next!"

It's the same mentality.

My point is you are always getting something with loot boxes. You never get one and it has no content in it. It always has SOMETHING in it, but it may not be what you are hoping it is going to be that is the 1/1000 chance of getting or some shit.

Gambling you put your money in, and you either win the money, or you lose it and have nothing to show for it.

Lootboxes, you put your money in, and you either get something you want, or you get some junk you don't want but either way you have something of "value" to show for it.

Lootboxes are pretty much the same as buying packs of baseball cards or any of that shit. You will get a bunch of shit you don't care about but hope you get the rare cards that you do care about. Chances are if you buy multiple packs that you'll get a lot of stuff you don't care about, including duplicates, that aren't really worth anything.

Do you guys really think that buying baseball cards is gambling?

 

[ViRGE]

Do you guys really think that buying baseball cards is gambling?

I didn't until now. If anything, you just made a good case for why it is.

 

[Tweak155]

My point is you are always getting something with loot boxes. You never get one and it has no content in it. It always has SOMETHING in it, but it may not be what you are hoping it is going to be that is the 1/1000 chance of getting or some shit.

Gambling you put your money in, and you either win the money, or you lose it and have nothing to show for it.

Lootboxes, you put your money in, and you either get something you want, or you get some junk you don't want but either way you have something of "value" to show for it.

Lootboxes are pretty much the same as buying packs of baseball cards or any of that shit. You will get a bunch of shit you don't care about but hope you get the rare cards that you do care about. Chances are if you buy multiple packs that you'll get a lot of stuff you don't care about, including duplicates, that aren't really worth anything.

Do you guys really think that buying baseball cards is gambling?

So by your own logic, as long as the casino gave you a piece of tissue paper to wipe your nose after you lose your money each time, that negates the fact that it is gambling? You didn't win the money, but at least you got something of "value"!

Focusing on whether it is specifically "gambling" is not really the point, it's preying on children and their inability to control emotions to begin with (and other non-children alike). At least that's how I see it.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I didn't until now. If anything, you just made a good case for why it is.

Yeah. You should have to show ID to buy packs of baseball cards with a stick of gum inside. After all, you're really buying gum, everything else is a free bonus. Maybe that's how they get around the gambling aspect.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Is buying M&Ms gambling? After all, you're not sure whether you'll get your "lucky" colors or not...

 

[VirtualLarry]

Hmm, in a similar fashion, the Mt. Dew "Gamer Fuel" 20oz bottles that I bought last night have codes on them, and a web site to go to, that seems to indicate that they are giving away an Xbox One X every 60 seconds.

Is that gambling too? Should promo codes, to allow entering a limited-time prize giveaway (sweepstakes?), be restricted by age too?

Isn't this just Soda companies taking advantage of kids / teenagers, and introducing them to "gambling" (loot-box-style "gambling")?