LOST 3x22 and LOST 3x23

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rockyct

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2001
6,656
32
91
Originally posted by: BD2003
1) They made a big deal over the hatch...then they blew it up.
2) They made a big deal over the dharma initiative...then it turned out to have really nothing to do with what was going on.
3) Last season there was the whole online thing, and NONE of it was relevant at all.
4) Then theres the numbers....wtf happened to that?
5) Theres a monster going around killing people, and thats never been really explained.
6) Michael just drove away, and we never heard about them again. Now teenage walt appears out of nowhere.
7) Just about any of the others that were killed managed to survive somehow. So theres no reason to think anyone that dies is actually going to stay that way.
8) And for some strange reason, women can't get pregnant, or they'll die, yet rousseau is still alive.
9) Now we're supposed to just believe they get off the island soon? I seriously, seriously doubt it. Even if we are to believe that, how is kate not in jail?

Just watched the finale last night, but I had to reply to this:
1) the hatch was important. Not typing in the numbers in the first time caused the plane to crash. When Desmond turned the key the next time the numbers weren't entered, we found out Penny is out there looking for him and saw the EMP coming from the hatch.
2) The Dharma initiative is still important and Naomi is probably one of them. We only found out recently that Ben's current group is non-Dharma.
3) seemed like it was background info on Dharma, but I never looked at it closely. They aren't going to reveal anything special in the game
4) The numbers had to do with the hatch. There's some magical island properties with them, but they brought the French woman to the island and Hurley became rich. Why do they have to be more significant than that?
5) It is a guard mechanism and probably either part of the island or part of the Hostiles. The show hasn't even gotten into the Hostiles part yet, and there are only a couple things known about the island itself.
6) A lot of the characters have seen visions of dead people or other people from their past. It's probably the island telling Locke to get going. The actor went through puberty so it's not like the writers had a choice to make him high voice Walt, or low voice Walt.
7) We've only seen "special" people come back to life, Patchy and Locke. The show has talked about the island's healing powers: Locke being able to walk, but also Ben taking longer than expected to heal (he does, but more slowly, indicating he's not quite as "special" as Locke or Patchy)
8) overpopulation is bad and the island doesn't want that, so it kills the people who conceive on it. There's probably some more but that's enough for now.
9) I think Naomi was part of the Dharma group and now they have found the island again. They aren't going home soon because I'm sure them going home is the last thing Dharma wants.

I think a lot of people missed the point of the "flash forward." Jack made a decision in this episode to phone the boat, which is the first step to them being rescued. In the future, he wishes he could go back to this moment and give Ben the sat phone. It also showed that Jack and Kate are rescued and live through the next three seasons. It's more of the writers showing that there is an end to the show, but it's not going to be a happy ending for some people.
 

Agentbolt

Diamond Member
Jul 9, 2004
3,340
1
0
Charlie believed that to save Claire, he had to die. The show spent several episodes on this matter and I don't know why you have issues with it. There .. refuted

Fine. That's a crap rebuttal, that Charlie basically comitted suicide because he somehow decided his death would save Claire and the baby, but whatever. There's still no explanation of where the hell the Losties arsenal of guns went, for example. This isn't a "why aren't there any answers" complaint, it's a simple matter of continuity. Keeping up from answers might be smart or edgy or whatever, but continuity problems just indicate laziness.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
Originally posted by: Ilmater
Originally posted by: Kaido
Things that were satisfying:

1. Alex meeting her mom
2. Ben getting the crap beat out of him
3. Hurley rolling over the bad guys with the bus
4. Sawyer shooting the last bad guy
5. Sayid breaking that guy's neck with his feet

Things that were not satisying:

1. Why Charlie chose to kill himself
2. Patchy, who's probably STILL not dead after the blast
3. The ending

Overall a good episode up until the very last part.
I can't understand why everyone on here is making a big deal about Charlie. He had resigned himself to die and to follow Demond's vision. When he saw what was happening, he saw how this whole thing fit into the prediction and followed through like that. It's just not that big of a deal. He felt it was his destiny to do what he did, and he thought it finally redeemed everything bad he had done up to that point. I won't say he wanted to die, but he felt like he could finally do something worthwhile.

Charlie had to die. He knew he was going to die eventually from Desmond's visions, so it had to happen.

more importantly, the actor wanted off the show
 

UberNeuman

Lifer
Nov 4, 1999
16,937
3,087
126
Originally posted by: Agentbolt
Charlie believed that to save Claire, he had to die. The show spent several episodes on this matter and I don't know why you have issues with it. There .. refuted

Fine. That's a crap rebuttal, that Charlie basically comitted suicide because he somehow decided his death would save Claire and the baby, but whatever. There's still no explanation of where the hell the Losties arsenal of guns went, for example. This isn't a "why aren't there any answers" complaint, it's a simple matter of continuity. Keeping up from answers might be smart or edgy or whatever, but continuity problems just indicate laziness.

If I remember correctly, the cache of guns they had were taken by the Others when the Losties set out to find Micheal. Jack and his group had to surrender the weapons to save Kate...
 

UpgradeFailure

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
1,672
0
0
To everyone thinking Charlie was dumb and shoulda just ran out the door, my take on it wasn't that he did it to "make sure the vision came true". It seemed like he thought he beat the vision. He even said "So much for fate". So at that point he was going to leave with Desmond using the scuba gear. I think he stayed in there and died to save Desmond. He knew once Desmond saw Penny he would do anything to talk to her, staying in there while it filled with water, etc. Charlie had to lock that door from the inside to keep Desmond out.
 

mzkhadir

Diamond Member
Mar 6, 2003
9,509
1
76
Lost producers reveal why Charlie died : http://www.eonline.com/gossip/kristin/d...d=9c9aafc1-e118-4d0c-9686-6b982fbd4e87


Can we talk about that? 'Cause we fans need to know why you did it.
Yes, of course. Dominic, Carlton and I, and all the writers, really felt that when Charlie threw his Virgin Mary statues into the water last year, that was the end of his addiction arc. We weren't interested in revisiting it and having him bounce between being drunk and being sober, so we began to really struggle with the idea of what was Charlie to play now. How was he going to evolve as a character?

At the very same time, we were starting to think about what the effect of the second season finale was going to be, with Desmond turning the fail-safe key. And we didn't want to kill off Desmond, but because this fail-safe key existed as sort of a last resort, we wanted there to be really severe ramifications for Desmond turning it. We didn't want him to get a free pass. And we felt that it would be cool if it involved time travel in some way. But instead of doing sort of a traditional time travel and creating paradoxes and all that stuff, we just did [the episode] "Flashes Before Your Eyes." When that experience ended, we wanted him to be able to see the future, and we thought it would be cool if [his visions] always kind of related to Charlie and Charlie?s death, as opposed to seeing 50 different things. That way, he would struggle all season with the idea of whether or not Charlie's death was inevitable.

Why Charlie?
We felt that would be a really interesting story for Desmond, but the way it would affect Charlie excited us even more. We thought it would make Charlie enormously heroic. He is a character who I think the audience has really liked, and he has, during the course of the show, demonstrated real heroism. Like when he killed Ethan for example. At the end of season two, we realized that if there was any character on the show who would sacrifice their life so that everyone else could be rescued, that would be Charlie. What we hadn?t decided though, was whether or not Charlie was actually going to die.

So, when did you actually decide to kill him?
Over the course of the year, we began to execute the story, and it was really working. I mean we just loved writing for Charlie. He had this whole new thing to play, and we loved how Dominic was working with Ian [Cusick]. Even with Hurley's more light-hearted story, Charlie's impending death gave it real gravitas. It was just a great storyline, and we were thinking, Is there a way for us to have our cake and eat it too? Can we continue prophesying Charlie's death but not actually have him die, just have him willing to die? But we kind of got to the point?I guess it was during the writing of "The Brig"?where we were all just talking in the writers room and we realized it's a cheat if he lives. It wouldn?t be fair, because we've made such a big story point out of it that Charlie now has to die. If he is going to accept his death, then he has to die. Otherwise, it's like, why did we do this story at all? We can't just let him off the hook. He has to die.

How did you break the news to Dominic?
You know, obviously, we started talking to him before we wrote "Flashes Before Your Eyes," just so he would know what was coming. We told him that as soon as we knew definitively what Charlie's fate was going to be, he'd be the first to know. And when we made the final decision, we called him and had a very reasonable conversation. He was completely understanding and appreciative and accepting.

On a personal level, was it a difficult decision letting him go?
Enormously. When you reflect back on the pilot, it was really Jack, Kate and Charlie's story. They're the three people you experience the crash with. They're the original sort of three amigos who go tromping out into the jungle. I think Dominic is, along with Jorge, really the heart of the show. And the idea of how would the show feel with Charlie not being in it anymore, that was a very dark tunnel to be looking down and it continues to be. But I think the reality is, after 72 hours of Lost, we have the idea of communicating to the audience that it's not just the Shannons and Boones and Paulos and Ekos and Ana Lucias who are vulnerable. Everybody is vulnerable. Not everybody's going to make it to the end of this journey. I think that was an important story point to make.

Are you expecting a fan backlash over this?
I hope so. I mean that honestly. I think that if people are like "we're glad you did it," that means we didn't do a good job of emotionally bonding the audience to Charlie and making them feel like his sacrifice is really tragic and heartbreaking. But Dom's work has been phenomenal, and in the last two episodes, he raised the bar even higher. And that's not just a producer trying to be generous to an actor who has now left the show. I think the proof is in the proverbial pudding. I really hope that all summer long, I am derided by people for doing this, because it'll mean that it meant something.

You heard what the man said, so comment away below. And also tell me how you think it's possible we're going to wait till February to see what happens next! Who wants to hibernate?
 

Agentbolt

Diamond Member
Jul 9, 2004
3,340
1
0
Jack and his group had to surrender the weapons to save Kate...

Dude, different weapons. The hatch had a friggin' ARESENAL of at least 30 guns. Shotguns, pistols, 50 cal rifles, etc. Jack and his crew only gave up a few pistols.
 

bluestrobe

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2004
2,033
1
0
Originally posted by: Agentbolt
Jack and his group had to surrender the weapons to save Kate...

Dude, different weapons. The hatch had a friggin' ARESENAL of at least 30 guns. Shotguns, pistols, 50 cal rifles, etc. Jack and his crew only gave up a few pistols.

They lost several weapons over the whole season in different skirmishes and events. heck, they lost 4 guns alone when they were captured at the barracks. That's the only time I counted how many they lost.
 

Agentbolt

Diamond Member
Jul 9, 2004
3,340
1
0
They lost several weapons over the whole season in different skirmishes and events. heck, they lost 4 guns alone when they were captured at the barracks.

Count up all the times they lost weapons and you come to maybe...10. Locke was checking out a 50 caliber rifle at one point in season 2, where'd that go? They certainly didn't carry it with them somewhere, and they sure could've used it instead of a pistol when trying to blow up the dynamite.

You can accuse me of splitting hairs or whatever, but the fact that they were down to a pistol to attempt to shoot a stack of dynamite from 30 feet away ended up being a major plot point. The Losties mysteriously lost 15-20 guns that would have been a HUGE help to them at several points late in season 3 and there was never any explanation of where they went. This isn't a "Charlie was wearing a striped tie but then in the next scene he had a polka dot one OMG WTF I hope someone lost their job for that!!" complaint here.
 

PhattyB

Member
Oct 20, 2004
160
0
0
Originally posted by: rockyct
2) The Dharma initiative is still important and Naomi is probably one of them. We only found out recently that Ben's current group is non-Dharma.
Originally posted by: rockyct
9) I think Naomi was part of the Dharma group and now they have found the island again. They aren't going home soon because I'm sure them going home is the last thing Dharma wants.

There is only one flaw... There was a Dharma parachute supply/food drop that the Losties recovered. So, that would lead us to believe Dharma knows the location but they don't know of "the purge". So, if true, what was the Dharma Inititive and why haven't they figured out the hostiles killed them all?
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
Originally posted by: Agentbolt
They lost several weapons over the whole season in different skirmishes and events. heck, they lost 4 guns alone when they were captured at the barracks.

Count up all the times they lost weapons and you come to maybe...10. Locke was checking out a 50 caliber rifle at one point in season 2, where'd that go? They certainly didn't carry it with them somewhere, and they sure could've used it instead of a pistol when trying to blow up the dynamite.

You can accuse me of splitting hairs or whatever, but the fact that they were down to a pistol to attempt to shoot a stack of dynamite from 30 feet away ended up being a major plot point. The Losties mysteriously lost 15-20 guns that would have been a HUGE help to them at several points late in season 3 and there was never any explanation of where they went. This isn't a "Charlie was wearing a striped tie but then in the next scene he had a polka dot one OMG WTF I hope someone lost their job for that!!" complaint here.

could have been a bunch in the hatch when it exploded.
 

TripleAAA

Golden Member
Jul 7, 2002
1,412
0
0
Still frustrated and want to know answers to these things that came about quite a while ago: (not in any order particularly) Maybe we found out and I just didn't notice it so please let me know.

-Remember when they first found the food that had apparently been "dropped" in? Common sense would say it was a plane. If so, then the plane knew how to get to the island. Similarly with Juliette drinking the spiked orange juice being told, "it's a rough flight".

-The marking/tatoo on Jack.

-What happened to Walt and Michael?

-One of the flight attendants that was "watching" Sawyer or Jack (can't remember) when they were in the bear cage, along with the little girl and the teddy bear.

-Smokey, of course


There are more, but can't think of them. Help me out people


 

rockyct

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2001
6,656
32
91
Originally posted by: PhattyB
Originally posted by: rockyct
2) The Dharma initiative is still important and Naomi is probably one of them. We only found out recently that Ben's current group is non-Dharma.
Originally posted by: rockyct
9) I think Naomi was part of the Dharma group and now they have found the island again. They aren't going home soon because I'm sure them going home is the last thing Dharma wants.

There is only one flaw... There was a Dharma parachute supply/food drop that the Losties recovered. So, that would lead us to believe Dharma knows the location but they don't know of "the purge". So, if true, what was the Dharma Inititive and why haven't they figured out the hostiles killed them all?

Ben was a Dharma member, so I'm sure he knows all of the procedures for fooling Dharma into thinking they are ok. It probably wasn't until Locke blew up that communications station did Dharma think something was wrong.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Also from eonline by David Lindeloff:

Alex is actually Ben's biological daughter?
False.

So that is the definitive answer to a question many of us wondered. And in the last episode we confirm Danielle did not get pregnant on the island.
 

PhattyB

Member
Oct 20, 2004
160
0
0
Originally posted by: rockyct
Ben was a Dharma member, so I'm sure he knows all of the procedures for fooling Dharma into thinking they are ok. It probably wasn't until Locke blew up that communications station did Dharma think something was wrong.

Yeah, he was a Dharma "Work Man". Wouldn't you be suspicious if you had an obviously expensive project and the only contact you could make was to..... a janitor?!?!

Who knows how long ago the purge was... Some of the "Others" (namely Richard) don't seem to age and it's possible Ben gained that status on that day. Anybody have a guess? I'd say at least 2 years and at most 20 years prior to the present day of Lost.
 

bluestrobe

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2004
2,033
1
0
Originally posted by: PhattyB
Originally posted by: rockyct
Ben was a Dharma member, so I'm sure he knows all of the procedures for fooling Dharma into thinking they are ok. It probably wasn't until Locke blew up that communications station did Dharma think something was wrong.

Yeah, he was a Dharma "Work Man". Wouldn't you be suspicious if you had an obviously expensive project and the only contact you could make was to..... a janitor?!?!

Who knows how long ago the purge was... Some of the "Others" (namely Richard) don't seem to age and it's possible Ben gained that status on that day. Anybody have a guess? I'd say at least 2 years and at most 20 years prior to the present day of Lost.

From the evidence I have seen so far, I would imagine it happened sometime in the mid 80's. The commercial equipment would have been older at that point but not needing replacement quite yet as it was still working and useful. If Ben was 20'sh then, it would make him 40'ish now.

 

Agentbolt

Diamond Member
Jul 9, 2004
3,340
1
0
could have been a bunch in the hatch when it exploded.

Sawyer had hidden them all out in the woods somewhere. I know eventually Jack figured out where they were, but there was never anything to indicate he'd put them back in the hatch. Suppose it's possible though, I don't recall the exact timing of when he got the guns back from Sawyer.
 

Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
30,859
4,976
126
You heard what the man said, so comment away below. And also tell me how you think it's possible we're going to wait till February to see what happens next! Who wants to hibernate?

Great explanation. Hibernate? I have 3 back seasons I can rewatch between now and February 2008!
 

Raiden256

Platinum Member
Feb 11, 2001
2,144
0
0
Has anyone done any sound analysis on the whispers you hear in the second or two before Walt says "Don't, John"? Definitely something being said there....


Also yeah, they're definitely walking opposite directions after the first commercial. I guess it could be significant, but seems like maybe just a continuity error.
 

Ilmater

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2002
7,516
1
0
Here are my views on things, and we'll see how they pan out.

The boat is from one of two people - the Dharma Initiative, or the group that funds "The Others" - either of which Penny's dad is a prominent member of (he's a member of one of the two, not both). He sent Desmond on this race in the first place knowing - or at least hoping - that he'd get stuck on the island. Penny was upset after Desmond was lost at sea, but found out some time later from her father (by accident, I'm sure) that there was actually an island out there. That's why she knows to look for something. The disappearance of the plane gave her renewed hope that she would find Desmond, and she became obsessed with it. Her father, wanting her to move on with her life and at this point surely resentful of Desmond, knew she was looking for him and tried to beat her to the punch by sending the boat and people to destroy or at least silence the people on the island. That's why she is involved with the whole thing, and that's why Naomi had a picture of Desmond and knew Penny's name.

The coffin is DEFINITELY smaller than a normal coffin, and whomever is in it hung his or herself. I thought at first someone will lose their legs and that's who is in the shorter coffin, but I would bet it's hard to hang yourself if you don't have legs. That leaves someone young, and the only character that we know that's young is Walt, and he's not only a bit taller now, but is not likely to change his name (since we know the name is "Je______anard"). Then again, it's possible that the boat that picks up Walt is a boat the Others control, and thus they require Michael and Walt to change their names so that they can remain a secret. Then there's the matter that I don't believe Walt would be that depressed. Even if he was upset, suicidal seems a ridiculous jump. He's too young to realize what he might have really been missing on the island. I believe it's more likely we've never met this person.

They are NOT in "the matrix." The person that keeps posting that (it's only one person, not everyone) is really annoying. It makes no sense at all, and would be an INCREDIBLE let-down, and there's no way ABC would have signed up to do a matrix knock-off TV show.

NOBODY has come back from the dead on the island. The island has great healing properties, and that is why people have come back from NEAR death. Patchy never was killed. He hit the fence, and he says later that the fence was set to non-lethal levels. So it follows that he likely was knocked out by it, but healed quickly. All those that have been saying that they bring characters back from death are wrong. I'm surprised that Patchy blew up the hatch, given that he pretty much knows that even being slightly alive would be enough to survive, and I'll be angry if they bring him back, as THAT would be the first instance of someone coming back to life. That grenade would have messed him up badly, and he would be fully dead after that, not just injured, to be healed later.

Charlie died because he was resigned to it, and felt that it was going to happen anyway from what Desmond had told him (no matter how many times I save you, you're going to die). Also, Desmond told Charlie, "I'm sorry, but this time you have to die." So, he felt he HAD to die in order to save Claire.

To me, the show is as good as it's ever been right now. We don't really know for sure that they get off the island. It's entirely possible that the flash forward showed one POSSIBLE outcome, and not the only outcome. Even if it did show that they leave the island, the new questions become:

Who is Jeremy Bantham?
How does Jack get off the island?
What does he regret - the way he got off the island, or the fact that he left at all?
Who's behind the boat?
When will the numbers creep back up? (no question they will)
Why is everyone's past so intertwined?
Who will rule the Others now with Locke being such an important figure to them all, and with Ben beat to hell?
 

mezrah

Senior member
Aug 23, 2005
765
1
0
From Doc Jensen

Using Planet of the Apes to analyze where Lost has come from.

LOST: SEASON 1
Introduces the world. Establishes a central conflict between castaway visitors and the Others, the seemingly hostile inhabitants of the Island. Ends with the discovery of The Black Rock, a symbolically loaded landmark that speaks ironically to various deep themes.
PLANET OF THE APES
Introduces the world. Establishes a central conflict between castaway visitors and the Apes, the seemingly hostile inhabitants of the world. Ends with the discovery of the Statue of Liberty, a symbolically loaded landmark that speaks ironically to various deep themes.

LOST: SEASON 2
The dramatic arc of season 1 is revisited and reinterpreted through a separate group of castaways, the Tailies. A subterranean-based culture is discovered, one that blends science, religion, and doomsday weirdness. A character of monumental importance (Desmond) appears at the very beginning, vanishes, and then shows up at the very end to activate a bomb. The season ends with an explosive event that sets the stage for a time-travel story in the next season.
BENEATH THE PLANET OF THE APES
The dramatic arc of the first film is revisited and reinterpreted through a new group of astronauts. A subterranean-based culture is discovered, one that blends science, religion, and doomsday weirdness. A character of monumental importance (Charlton Heston's Taylor) appears at the very beginning, vanishes, and then shows up at the very end to activate a bomb. The movie ends with an explosive event that destroys the world and sets the stage for a time-travel story in the next movie.

LOST: SEASON 3
A dramatic change of setting and focus: Three castaways ? Jack, Kate, and Sawyer ? are abducted and relocated to the world of the Others, where they are held against their will in a zoology facility. A time-travel storyline introduces the possibility of a circular framework to the entire saga. The climactic conflict hinges on the future survival of the Others, the ostensible antagonists of the first two seasons.
ESCAPE FROM THE PLANET OF THE APES
A dramatic change of setting and focus: Three protagonists ? a trio of refugee chimps ? travel into the distant past of their ''Others,'' the humans, where they are held against their will in a zoology facility. The time-travel storyline introduces the possibility of a circular framework for the entire saga. The climactic conflict hinges on the future survival of the entire super-sentient simian species, the ostensible antagonists of the first two seasons.

(Uncanny, huh? And I didn't even tell you yet how all of this also correlates to Hegel's five-step Master/Slave myth! Come back in late July for my first special hiatus edition of Doc Jensen, when I'll show you how the last two Apes flicks ? Conquest of the Planet of the Apes and Battle for the Planet of the Apes ? and Tim Burton's 2001 remake of Planet of the Apes will correlate to the final three seasons of Lost!)

 
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