"Lost" 6x15 "Across The Sea" Tues. 9pm NO SPOILERS UNTIL AIRED

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CoinOperatedBoy

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2008
1,809
0
76
Oh, and yes, the actor playing young Jacob was also billed in the other episodes as the mysterious boy in the woods. His name is Kenton Duty.

Edit: I see Crono already pointed this out.
 
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Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,218
661
136
Lots of questions:

1. Who wiped out the entire camp and filled in the well?

2. Who dug it back up and put the wheel in?

3. How did they know how to do that?

4. How did the Mother know so much?

5. Why did she thank MIB when she died?


Only three hours left and more questions being introduced.


1. I was lead to believe "mother" did it.
2. MiB prob did, as he did think it was a good plan to get off the island
3. If MiB did it, then he'd already know as he helped making the plans
4. Prob had better training from whoever she took it over from
5. Tired from being around for a loooong time. Was happy about the release.
 

slayer202

Lifer
Nov 27, 2005
13,682
119
106
This still doesn't completely make sense. It's clear in this episode that MiB can see dead people. It would then make sense that the boy in the woods could be Jacob, post-death. But what I don't get is how both Sawyer and Desmond also saw him, yet Richard could not. It would make perfect sense if it were Hurley or Miles, who we know can interact with the dead, but that's not the case. It's not even just candidates, because as far as I know, Desmond isn't on the short list.

thats what I was just thinking. i would be ok if it was candidate related for sawyer, and desmond being "special" somehow, but not sure why richard wouldn't have seen him. has anyone else seen or not seen young jacob when he has appeared?
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Many ideas stolen directly from a post I made defending my own feelings on LOST, even references to Star Wars. Good job. And from an earlier post in the same thread, I said:



In every episode thread where someone expresses disappointment, you're there to call them an asshole. The show had a lot of promise and it's forced those of us with high hopes for the sci fi elements (that is, seated in some sort of real science) to significantly lower our expectations and now they're completely shot, so allow us our disdain. You can turn off your brain and coast along with these hack writers and enjoy the show -- that's your right -- but don't judge us for calling a spade a spade.

I don't recall that post, mainly because many of the posts praising or attacking a TV show I don't care to remember two weeks later. Sorry.
Besides, it's just an obvious reference that many fans of this type of TV show would likely understand. May have gotten embedded in my conscious without realizing it, and so I'll give you credit regardless.

Also, I've never once called someone an asshole for how they felt about a TV show. If I did, then I forgot about it because it was a trivial matter. And also likely something along the lines of "don't be such an asshole", that's a phrase I could see myself using.

Chief example, I wanted to outright refer to brblx as an asshole, for openly questioning my intelligence based on how I interpreted something, which I turned around and pointed out as absolute fact. Oddly enough, no response to the link for the 2007 plot outline leak until the end of the series.
I didn't read it back then because I didn't care to know, but now knowing the show is almost over, I felt it safe to see what they had laid out, fully expecting their to be differences in details to change things up for surprises.

I have questioned how wrapped up people get in these trivial details, going as far as questioning the quality of the fiction at hand based on the final season of a series which has been overly complex, and obviously headed toward insane-level conclusions anyhow.

And I have pointed to the potent catch-22 the writers are dealing with here. All the fans have been rabid about getting answers, and it is incredibly obvious of a fact, that regardless of what those answers actually describe, a majority of the fans are going to be pissed.

I wrote a critical analysis of this show at the beginning of Season 4 for a course based around critically analyzing televised programs. Does that make be an expert? Hell no, and I won't claim it does.
But what I'm trying to get at, is I'm not some kind of rabid fan for the show. I'm a rabid fan for what the show represents. Detailed fiction filled with plot devices that advance character interactions based firmly on concrete social themes. This is something that is extremely rare in fiction.
I loved Battlestar Galactica (new version) for the same exact reason. The story itself went to some odd places, and ended quite strangely, but there was not one moment when the show disappointed me. Because the gravity of the characterizations was far more immense and deep than most works of televised fiction.

If someone took the ideas of Lost, ones presented in Seasons 1 and 2, and thought the show was going to end on some concrete, rational, realistic details... that's just delusional. Sorry to say.
Monster, made of smoke. Polar bear on island (this was clarified in Season 3, quite rationally I might add. Maybe this gave people hope for other crazy themes?)
Scientific researchers exploring paranormal capabilities on the island?
Things obviously appearing and strange happenings that just aren't possible in real life?

I just don't get what people are really up in arms about. The story has always been pointing to something quite out of the ordinary, and everyone demanded answers for these out of the ordinary occurrences that viewers saw as obviously meant to be answered at some point.

If you would rather them not have introduced anything that would have pointed to the necessity for answers... then, would you still have been okay with the smoke monster (present since the first episode)? How about hatches exploding because of a loss of control of an anomaly? The idea that everyone on the plane was interconnected in some way? The whole "The Constant" thing should have outright pissed people off. That was before the island moved, before time travel, before they revealed Jacob, but notably, quite a bit after anyone was ever deemed special in a very obvious way.

The way I see it, the whole reason for anyone being special is because of the island. Is that really enough for anyone as far as answers go? And after that, go into detail of HOW these people are special? I'm not satisfied with knowing WHY the island is important now, and from that, if they don't answer why specific people are special, I won't mind.

As a huge fan of characterizations, and as an aspiring fiction author, there are certain things that are more important in a story for me than other things. And the way the creators have handled Lost, and how the writers of BSG handled that show, those TV shows have had more of an impact than almost any other televised production, ever.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
thats what I was just thinking. i would be ok if it was candidate related for sawyer, and desmond being "special" somehow, but not sure why richard wouldn't have seen him. has anyone else seen or not seen young jacob when he has appeared?

I'd say Richard not seeing dead people is the same reason Jacob never saw dead people. Considering Richard was kind of like Jacob's right hand man, that might make a little more sense.

Sawyer almost seems like a candidate to replace Smokie.

And Desmond, well he's just odd and is indeed special in some way at the moment. He exited that EM chamber like a completely different person. I suspect Widmore and Co. have figured there was something extremely important about him, in that they actually know what that something is, and Widmore wanted to coax it out of (or into) him.

I actually think the odd magnetism of the island IS connected to the Light. Just... not sure where to even take that theory yet. Also just don't care to invest time into theories at this point, because with 3 hours of the series left, it's just time to enjoy the ride, and wait and see.
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,806
46
91
because they weren't trying to get off the island before maybe?

but she said they were bad people and if she was so worried about jacob and MiB being hurt or influenced by them, why let them stay. Also, remember that MiB lived with them for 30 years!
 

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
30,160
3,302
126
the mom didnt hide/camoflauge the 'light' cave when 'men' want it and might do it harm?
edit: nevermind. seems she has the power to hide it in plain sight

how does the mom know so much about the island?

how did she bury the well? and kill the villagers?

so the 2 bodies found in the cave by jack in season1 was the mom and MiB

so Hurly and the korean guy that can speak to the dead have the same powers as MiB?

What powers does Jacob have? which of the remaining survivors are him?
 
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Caveman

Platinum Member
Nov 18, 1999
2,532
33
91
Why not the LOST island of Atlantis? It was eluded to at the start of this season (underwater scene at start of show).

Fakemom and the rest were from there... This is why she can say they aren't from across the ocean yet MIB thinks he wasn't born there (the island has moved). Would explain polar bears and Egyptian deserts since the island rematerializes at various places, sometime embedded in the land mass itself...

Fake and real mom seems to be speaking some foreign language. Assumpion is they broke into English so we didn't have to deal with subtitles but that the 2 were really from another culture (Atlantis).
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,816
83
91
real mom and fake mom were speaking Latin.

I felt like the three years of Latin I took in high school finally paid off.
 

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
30,160
3,302
126
Why not the LOST island of Atlantis? It was eluded to at the start of this season (underwater scene at start of show).

Fakemom and the rest were from there... This is why she can say they aren't from across the ocean yet MIB thinks he wasn't born there (the island has moved). Would explain polar bears and Egyptian deserts since the island rematerializes at various places, sometime embedded in the land mass itself...

Fake and real mom seems to be speaking some foreign language. Assumpion is they broke into English so we didn't have to deal with subtitles but that the 2 were really from another culture (Atlantis).

what eqyptian sand?

sounded like real mom was speaking spanish.
was fake mom also speaking spanish??? thought it was latin at first since it was hundreds of years ago?
 

Crono

Lifer
Aug 8, 2001
23,720
1,501
136
I wonder if they are going to give us a glimpse even further back, say ~3,000 B.C. Egypt.

It would be interesting to see the predecessors of the island guardians.
My guess (hope) is that the island's heart didn't originate on the island, but was brought over from Egypt itself by the "magicians" (read:ancient scientists) of the day, and that black rock is (half?) the key source of the powers on the island.

And I would agree with the island as being a type of Atlantis.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,816
83
91
I'd love to see Lost spin-off into a comic book mini-series based around the history of the island.
 

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
Administrator
Nov 30, 2005
50,235
117
116
Just finished the episode and really enjoyed it. My only complaint is I wish it would have been about 2 hours longer.

Read through the entire thread, aside from all of the usual bitching, and there are some interesting thoughts/questions.

I assumed Mom was able to become a smoke monster as well, hence the razing of the camp and covering up of the well/ Also, she was killed without her saying a word, which is what I recall the Japanese dude saying had to happen to kill Esau (stealing that from Crono because I like it better than Flocke).

Dissatisfaction with this ep and the seemingly magical elements of the show remind me of what happened with Alias (not coincidentally, another Abrams created show).

Pretty much the same type of thing happened. Early episodes indicated of some kind of advanced technology bordering on mystical power, and then the series proceeded without any major plot advancement in that regard until much later on.

By the end of the series, things were accelerated and the whole prophecy thing was taken to another level.

Even during the long length of time that the show followed the super spy plot-of-the-week, discerning viewers could see that everything was still centered on Milo Rambaldi, and that was the overarching story.

What strikes me as odd is that a few people are upset at the pace of the unfolding of mysteries on Lost, and some think that the show has gone completely with magical explanations.

In truth, it partly has, but it really hasn't been different from the length of the show, except for pacing. Dharma was shown way back in seasons 1 or 2 to have been investigating paranormal activity on the island, ghosts/visions were appearing, polar bears were loose, you had the whole timed rainstorms going on, healing of John Locke, etc. Anyone half observant took note.

I get it, though: people were expecting a scientific explanation, or at least something resembling science. But they haven't really abandoned that, it's just that the science (pseudo science or sic fi) is much bigger in concept, involving time travel (lol I remember in 1st or 2nd ep after polar bear I kept saying it better not be a time traveling island..) and some random theoretical physics and quantum mechanics for good measure.

It always looked like the supernatural/mystical elements of the island would have some part sci-fi basis, and that still seems to be true after this episode. If there was ever a time be annoyed, it would have been once it was revealed that space-time is a plot device of the series.

The human interactions, philosophical, and historical backdrop are still awesome, by the way. Show still has the drama, even though Everyone is dropping like flies at this eleventh hour.

Great call on Alias. I remember being so into that show in the beginning and with all of the Rambaldi stuff I thought it was going to become something insanely epic. Unfortunately I ended up losing interest before the last few seasons and never saw how it played out. Sure started out brilliantly though.

For some reason I have not become disillusioned with this show, for whatever reason. I love every episode. :hmm:

KT
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
11,774
919
126
You know half the problems on the island wouldn't happen if people just told everyone else what they know, instead of bring so secretive and cryptic.
"Something worse than death" isn't a good answer, if you know what would happen just tell him. Same with protecting the light.

Did they ever mention the name of the lady protector? I notice they never mentioned MiB's name. Wonder what she fed the babies with thier mother dead at childbirth.
 

CoinOperatedBoy

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2008
1,809
0
76
Also, I've never once called someone an asshole for how they felt about a TV show. If I did, then I forgot about it because it was a trivial matter. And also likely something along the lines of "don't be such an asshole", that's a phrase I could see myself using.

I wasn't referring to specific usage of the word "asshole", but your overall demeanor toward the people who express their disapproval of the show's direction and their hope for more answers (or better ones) than the writers seem willing to provide. You did specifically say that you hate such people. I know you're not the only one. It's not a big deal and I know your comments are partially tongue-in-cheek, but it's pretty annoying that it comes up in every single thread -- threads devoted specifically to discussing the details of the show and theories about the outcome. Hurrr?


I have questioned how wrapped up people get in these trivial details, going as far as questioning the quality of the fiction at hand based on the final season of a series which has been overly complex, and obviously headed toward insane-level conclusions anyhow.

And I have pointed to the potent catch-22 the writers are dealing with here. All the fans have been rabid about getting answers, and it is incredibly obvious of a fact, that regardless of what those answers actually describe, a majority of the fans are going to be pissed.

As I said before, LOST has been all about the "trivial details" from the beginning. They've revisited themes, small character interactions, and minor plot points frequently. The trivial details are what allow all of us to theorize week in and week out about what's going to happen next. The creators cultivated this atmosphere to keep people hooked.

But where it once all seemed masterfully connected, it's now become obvious that the writers were too smart for their own good and all the details snowballed into a completely unexplainable mess. Now we find out all the clues, all the pseudo science was all just a big red herring, all the theories were pointless. When they yank the rug out from under the audience at the last second by turning everything into magic, you're damn right a lot of people will be pissed.

Look, the point is not that every single last thing on the show needs to be 100% realistic or that every last mystery need be explained. But the writers could have at least given us the courtesy of not pulling what they did in this episode. Come on, a main (meta-)theme of the show has been faith vs. science, and the writers seem to have come down firmly in the "faith" camp, which kind of ruins the whole thing. Even worse, it seems like they're doing it only out of convenience because they can't logically explain half the shit they put on our plates over the last six years.
 

Crono

Lifer
Aug 8, 2001
23,720
1,501
136
Did they ever mention the name of the lady protector? I notice they never mentioned MiB's name. Wonder what she fed the babies with thier mother dead at childbirth.

I'm referring to the crazy lady as Neith, hopefully before some wierder name catches on.
 
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rockyct

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2001
6,656
32
91
1. Destroyed an entire camp of peeps by herself
2. Destroyed a well by herself
3. Inferred that she herself has gone down into the light/hole, thus knows what happens when you go down there, and tells jacob to NOT go down there
I just saw the episode tonight so I'm still catching up on this thread, but anyway.

I think she was smokey also. She seemed to be "black" like the MiB. Jacob said she loved him more than Jacob and I think that's because she saw herself in him and that's why he was special. She also knew when people were on the island and seemed to sneak up their real mom. You're also right in that it seems like she really knew what she was talking about with the going down the hole part. I think she killed everyone in the village, finished the wheel for whatever reason, and then buried it.

I also will point out that the MiB stabbed her before she could say anything to him.
 

Crono

Lifer
Aug 8, 2001
23,720
1,501
136
There is a lot of richness in the allegorical use of the Jacob-Esau story.
In the story of Jacob and Esau, Isaac and Rebekah have twin sons.


Esau is born first, but Jacob comes out right after, holding on the heel
of his brother. This signified what would happen in the future: the younger son would supplant the older, even though this was contrary to the
normal tradition of primogenecy (older son had birthright and gained inheritance).

As kids and young men, it becomes clear that Jacob is more suited for the indoor (tent) chores and cooking, while his brother is more of an outdoorsman and hunter. A favoritism develops between the parents and the respective sons; Jacob takes more to his mother, while Esau takes more to his father.

One day after a long time outside, Esau returns home exhausted and
asks his brother for something to eat. Jacob obliges, but for a price - he wants the birthright, the future inheritance. Not putting much stock in his birthright, and especially since he is hungry at the moment, Esau agrees, nd Jacob "purchases" the birthright for a bowl of soup.

Later on, in order to actually receive the blessing of his father, Jacob (who's name means "trickster", IIRC) eceives his father (with the help of his mother) by dressing up in wooly clothing when his father is on his deathbed (Esau was a hairyguy, and by that time Isaac couldn't see too well). Jacob receives the blessing and the inheritance, while Esau makes a name for himself.

This is the source of tension for many years between the two, until one point when they are much older where they reconcile. Their respective peoples, however (children, servants, household workers), however, maintain tension between them, and the descendants of both groups, the Israelites (Jacob was named Israel by the LORD) and Edomites (Edom was nickname for Esau; his name means "red") are enemies for hundreds of years, until the Edomites dissipate in history.

This story seems to have a lot of parallels with the story between the two in Lost, and my bet is that a lot of the remaining story will rely on other aspects of this biblical story. Perhaps even reconciliation, somehow, between Jacob and Esau, if not between the two "camps" that follow.

Simultaneously, though, you can take a lot from the Egyptian story of Apep and Ra. Both mythos seem to factor heavily into the allegorical aspects of the show.
 
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Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,518
5,340
136
I assumed Mom was able to become a smoke monster as well, hence the razing of the camp and covering up of the well

Yeah this was my thought was well - because she warned about the dangers of going into the tunnel, so she must have known about the tunnel did, and she destroyed the people/camp pretty quickly & the aftermath looked like typical smoke monster leftovers.
 
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